[Guest]

When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with turning the
engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the starter motor going.
Solenoid?

I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow smoke up
my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter motor that "has a
flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could cost $600! But
doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid contact or something,
which could cost a lot less?

 

[Guest]

We had a similar issue on a '97 DX, but it intermittently failed to start
when warm outside. Dealer replaced the solenoid and it has been fine since
then.

"Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in news:
[email protected]
> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with turning the
> engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the starter motor going.
> Solenoid?
>
> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow smoke up
> my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter motor that "has a
> flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could cost $600! But
> doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid contact or something,
> which could cost a lot less?
>
>

 

[Guest]

"Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with turning the
> engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the starter motor going.
> Solenoid?
>
> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow smoke up
> my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter motor that "has a
> flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could cost $600! But
> doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid contact or something,
> which could cost a lot less?
>
It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn and need
replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or damaged
contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts (at least in the
U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts, then you may have to replace
the starter solenoid or entire starter.

A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common problem on
Toyota starters.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

 

[Guest]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 09:02:38 -0600, Angela Marsh
<[email protected]> wrote:

>When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with turning the
>engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the starter motor going.
>Solenoid?
>
>I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow smoke up
>my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter motor that "has a
>flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could cost $600! But
>doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid contact or something,
>which could cost a lot less?
>
Some ideas here.... http://www.off-road.com/toyota/tech/starter/

 

[Guest]

"Ghislain" <[email protected]> wrote :

> We had a similar issue on a '97 DX, but it intermittently failed to
> start when warm outside. Dealer replaced the solenoid and it has been
> fine since then.
>
> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in news:
> [email protected]
>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>
>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow
>> smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter motor
>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid
>> contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>

This mostly does it when cold, and when it's warmed up, it starts right
up.

 

[Guest]

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :

>
> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>
>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow
>> smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter motor
>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid
>> contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>
> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn and
> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts (at
> least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts, then you
> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>
> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common problem
> on Toyota starters.

It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.

 

[Guest]

"Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>
>>
>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>>
>>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow
>>> smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter motor
>>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid
>>> contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>>
>> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn and
>> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
>> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts (at
>> least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts, then you
>> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>>
>> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common problem
>> on Toyota starters.
>
> It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.
>
What doesn't make sense? The solenoid or the armature?
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

 

[Guest]

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :

>
> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>
>>>
>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]
>>>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>>>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>>>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>>>
>>>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow
>>>> smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter
motor
>>>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>>>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid
>>>> contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>>>
>>> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn
and
>>> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
>>> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts (at
>>> least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts, then
you
>>> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>>>
>>> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common
problem
>>> on Toyota starters.
>>
>> It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.
>>
> What doesn't make sense? The solenoid or the armature?

That an armature could suddenly develop a "flat spot".

It seems pretty obvious that it's a solenoid contact.

 

[Guest]

"Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>
>>
>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>>>>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>>>>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow
>>>>> smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter
> motor
>>>>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>>>>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid
>>>>> contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>>>>
>>>> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn
> and
>>>> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
>>>> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts (at
>>>> least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts, then
> you
>>>> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>>>>
>>>> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common
> problem
>>>> on Toyota starters.
>>>
>>> It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.
>>>
>> What doesn't make sense? The solenoid or the armature?
>
> That an armature could suddenly develop a "flat spot".
>
> It seems pretty obvious that it's a solenoid contact.
>

Armatures generally do not suddenly develop flat spots, but they can wear
unevenly over time. The first time the armature loses contact and the
starter does not work, it will seem like a sudden appearance of a problem.

In Toyotas, a bad solenoid contact is the most common cause of the condition
you are describing, but it is not the only possible cause.

In other cars, a bad starter is a more common cause of that condition, which
is probably why your mechanic came up with that diagnosis.

One of the things that makes Toyotas easy to work on is that they are built
very consistently and have few one-of-a kind problems. The downside to that
consistency is that if there is a weak spot in the design, assembly process,
or material, almost every vehicle will eventually develop the same problem.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

 

[Guest]

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :

>
> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>
>>>
>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]
>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>>>>>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>>>>>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to
>>>>>> blow smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the
>>>>>> starter
>> motor
>>>>>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>>>>>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter
>>>>>> solenoid contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>>>>>
>>>>> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn
>> and
>>>>> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
>>>>> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts
>>>>> (at least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts,
>>>>> then
>> you
>>>>> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>>>>>
>>>>> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common
>> problem
>>>>> on Toyota starters.
>>>>
>>>> It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.
>>>>
>>> What doesn't make sense? The solenoid or the armature?
>>
>> That an armature could suddenly develop a "flat spot".
>>
>> It seems pretty obvious that it's a solenoid contact.
>>
>
> Armatures generally do not suddenly develop flat spots, but they can
> wear unevenly over time. The first time the armature loses contact
> and the starter does not work, it will seem like a sudden appearance
> of a problem.
>
> In Toyotas, a bad solenoid contact is the most common cause of the
> condition you are describing, but it is not the only possible cause.
>
> In other cars, a bad starter is a more common cause of that
> condition, which is probably why your mechanic came up with that
> diagnosis.

He's at Midas. I haven't ever gone to them for repairs and just started
going to them for an oil change recently, but if I recall, they're the
kind of place that likes to replace the whole brake system instead of
just what needs it. Maybe they're the same with the starter motor. Hey,
they can fool a woman and charge $600 for the whole thing, right?

> One of the things that makes Toyotas easy to work on is that they are
> built very consistently and have few one-of-a kind problems. The
> downside to that consistency is that if there is a weak spot in the
> design, assembly process, or material, almost every vehicle will
> eventually develop the same problem.

This is THE most reliable car we've ever owned, so far anyway. It has
139,000 miles on it.

 

[Guest]

"Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>
>>
>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>>>>>>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>>>>>>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to
>>>>>>> blow smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the
>>>>>>> starter
>>> motor
>>>>>>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>>>>>>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter
>>>>>>> solenoid contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn
>>> and
>>>>>> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
>>>>>> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts
>>>>>> (at least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts,
>>>>>> then
>>> you
>>>>>> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common
>>> problem
>>>>>> on Toyota starters.
>>>>>
>>>>> It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.
>>>>>
>>>> What doesn't make sense? The solenoid or the armature?
>>>
>>> That an armature could suddenly develop a "flat spot".
>>>
>>> It seems pretty obvious that it's a solenoid contact.
>>>
>>
>> Armatures generally do not suddenly develop flat spots, but they can
>> wear unevenly over time. The first time the armature loses contact
>> and the starter does not work, it will seem like a sudden appearance
>> of a problem.
>>
>> In Toyotas, a bad solenoid contact is the most common cause of the
>> condition you are describing, but it is not the only possible cause.
>>
>> In other cars, a bad starter is a more common cause of that
>> condition, which is probably why your mechanic came up with that
>> diagnosis.
>
> He's at Midas. I haven't ever gone to them for repairs and just started
> going to them for an oil change recently, but if I recall, they're the
> kind of place that likes to replace the whole brake system instead of
> just what needs it. Maybe they're the same with the starter motor. Hey,
> they can fool a woman and charge $600 for the whole thing, right?
>
>> One of the things that makes Toyotas easy to work on is that they are
>> built very consistently and have few one-of-a kind problems. The
>> downside to that consistency is that if there is a weak spot in the
>> design, assembly process, or material, almost every vehicle will
>> eventually develop the same problem.
>
> This is THE most reliable car we've ever owned, so far anyway. It has
> 139,000 miles on it.
>

Midas is not high on my list of recommended repair facilities, even for
mufflers. ;-)
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

 

[Guest]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 21:25:44 -0600, Angela Marsh wrote:

> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>
>
>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>>>>>>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>>>>>>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow
>>>>>>> smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter
>>> motor
>>>>>>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>>>>>>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid
>>>>>>> contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn
>>> and
>>>>>> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
>>>>>> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts (at
>>>>>> least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts, then
>>> you
>>>>>> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common
>>> problem
>>>>>> on Toyota starters.
>>>>>
>>>>> It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.
>>>>>
>>>> What doesn't make sense? The solenoid or the armature?
>>>
>>> That an armature could suddenly develop a "flat spot".
>>>
>>> It seems pretty obvious that it's a solenoid contact.
>>>
>>>
>> Armatures generally do not suddenly develop flat spots, but they can
>> wear unevenly over time. The first time the armature loses contact and
>> the starter does not work, it will seem like a sudden appearance of a
>> problem.
>>
>> In Toyotas, a bad solenoid contact is the most common cause of the
>> condition you are describing, but it is not the only possible cause.
>>
>> In other cars, a bad starter is a more common cause of that condition,
>> which is probably why your mechanic came up with that diagnosis.
>
> He's at Midas. I haven't ever gone to them for repairs and just started
> going to them for an oil change recently, but if I recall, they're the
> kind of place that likes to replace the whole brake system instead of just
> what needs it. Maybe they're the same with the starter motor. Hey, they
> can fool a woman and charge $600 for the whole thing, right?
>
>> One of the things that makes Toyotas easy to work on is that they are
>> built very consistently and have few one-of-a kind problems. The
>> downside to that consistency is that if there is a weak spot in the
>> design, assembly process, or material, almost every vehicle will
>> eventually develop the same problem.
>
> This is THE most reliable car we've ever owned, so far anyway. It has
> 139,000 miles on it.


Wow...that's NOTHING! It's good for another 100,000 with proper care.

Take the car to a place that does electrical work as their main business,
and have them rebuild the starter. You can get one from Toyota for $2-400,
but replacing the contacts is fairly easy and should be <$100.

 

[Guest]

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :

>
> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>
>>>
>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]
>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>>>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>>>>>>>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>>>>>>>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to
>>>>>>>> blow smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the
>>>>>>>> starter
>>>> motor
>>>>>>>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and
could
>>>>>>>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter
>>>>>>>> solenoid contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are
worn
>>>> and
>>>>>>> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
>>>>>>> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts
>>>>>>> (at least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts,
>>>>>>> then
>>>> you
>>>>>>> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common
>>>> problem
>>>>>>> on Toyota starters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.
>>>>>>
>>>>> What doesn't make sense? The solenoid or the armature?
>>>>
>>>> That an armature could suddenly develop a "flat spot".
>>>>
>>>> It seems pretty obvious that it's a solenoid contact.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Armatures generally do not suddenly develop flat spots, but they can
>>> wear unevenly over time. The first time the armature loses contact
>>> and the starter does not work, it will seem like a sudden appearance
>>> of a problem.
>>>
>>> In Toyotas, a bad solenoid contact is the most common cause of the
>>> condition you are describing, but it is not the only possible cause.
>>>
>>> In other cars, a bad starter is a more common cause of that
>>> condition, which is probably why your mechanic came up with that
>>> diagnosis.
>>
>> He's at Midas. I haven't ever gone to them for repairs and just
started
>> going to them for an oil change recently, but if I recall, they're
the
>> kind of place that likes to replace the whole brake system instead of
>> just what needs it. Maybe they're the same with the starter motor.
Hey,
>> they can fool a woman and charge $600 for the whole thing, right?
>>
>>> One of the things that makes Toyotas easy to work on is that they
are
>>> built very consistently and have few one-of-a kind problems. The
>>> downside to that consistency is that if there is a weak spot in the
>>> design, assembly process, or material, almost every vehicle will
>>> eventually develop the same problem.
>>
>> This is THE most reliable car we've ever owned, so far anyway. It has
>> 139,000 miles on it.
>>
>
> Midas is not high on my list of recommended repair facilities, even
for
> mufflers. ;-)


How come?

I sure can't afford Toyota themselves.

 

[Guest]

"Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

<snipped>

>>> He's at Midas. I haven't ever gone to them for repairs and just
> started
>>> going to them for an oil change recently, but if I recall, they're
> the
>>> kind of place that likes to replace the whole brake system instead of
>>> just what needs it. Maybe they're the same with the starter motor.
> Hey,
>>> they can fool a woman and charge $600 for the whole thing, right?
>>>
>>>> One of the things that makes Toyotas easy to work on is that they
> are
>>>> built very consistently and have few one-of-a kind problems. The
>>>> downside to that consistency is that if there is a weak spot in the
>>>> design, assembly process, or material, almost every vehicle will
>>>> eventually develop the same problem.
>>>
>>> This is THE most reliable car we've ever owned, so far anyway. It has
>>> 139,000 miles on it.
>>>
>>
>> Midas is not high on my list of recommended repair facilities, even
> for
>> mufflers. ;-)
>
>
> How come?
>
> I sure can't afford Toyota themselves.
>

I have seen the quality of their muffler installations and was not impressed
by the quality of the workmanship or the quality of the materials used.

If I were looking for an independent shop, I would look for one that employs
technicians that are certified by the National Institute for Automotive
Service Excellence, preferably ASE certified Master Technicians. While ASE
certifications are no guarantee of competence, IMO, passing the ASE
certification tests does tend to weed out incompetent technicians. I would
also look for a shop that is AAA approved. A combination of AAA and ASE
certifications tends to weed out fly-by-night operations, and my experience
with AAA arbitration is that they are fair and try to make their
certifications worthwhile.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

 

[Guest]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:46:22 -0600, Angela Marsh
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :

>> Midas is not high on my list of recommended repair facilities, even
>> for mufflers. ;-)
>
>How come? I sure can't afford Toyota themselves.

Midas, Sears Auto Centers, Goodyear Auto Centers, Jiffy Lube, all
the big chain repair operations have one thing in common - Corporate
ownership and lots of micro-management from above.

Known fact: Jiffy Lube tries to lure you in with a $19.99 or $24.99
Oil Change Special - but Corporate wants them to push the hard-sell,
the add-on sale, and their is a stated goal to get an average of $60
out of each ticket, on each visit. (On camera testimony from a
"Former Manager" with his identity protected, see KCBS series below.)

And all these big companies are doing it - they have their service
tickets and billing computerized, and they track every employee as
they make those sales - with salary bonuses for those who produce, and
eventual dismissal for those who don't.

With that kind of pressure to sell or be fired, fraud is rampant -
KCBS Channel 2 News in Los Angeles just did a big hidden-camera sting
where they were sold those add-ons - radiator flushes and transmission
flushes - that were never performed. They had five people sold a
transmission flush while they were there, and the sole flush machine
they had on the premises never moved from it's display spot out front.

In California, it's prosecutable fraud if they "Oversell" unneeded
service or repairs through fraud (the old "Squirt oil on the shocks
and say they're leaking" trick) coercion fear or misrepresentation,
and another crime if they never perform the work.

The CA Bureau of Automotive Repair has inspectors who run stings and
make arrests. Sears has been busted numerous times, and once they
were caught doing the same things at so many locations at once the BAR
was about to yank all their auto repair shop permits statewide...

Midas may have "Advertised Specials" but once they have the car up
on the rack I can guarantee they are going to find lots of ways to
bump that bill up. They have to, their job depends on it...

The Toyota Dealer Mechanics are operating under a different edict
that also inflates the bill: Once they do a repair the work has to be
guaranteed - so they can't "Just" do a spot repair and change just the
contacts in the starter solenoid, even if that's all there is wrong.
If the starter motor fails next, they'd have to replace it for free.
So they always have to install a complete "Genuine Toyota
Remanufactured Starter" that costs three times as much as it should.

A good starter shop can go through the starter for about $50 - $75,
change all the wear items and give it back ready for another 100,000
miles of average use. And on most cars the starters are easy enough
to get out and in yourself, or an independent mechanic can do it for a
reasonable price.

--<< Bruce >>--

 

[Guest]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:23:32 -0600, Ray O wrote:

>
> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>
>>
>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]
>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Angela Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>>>> When it's cold, I'm starting to get some contact problems with
>>>>>>>> turning the engine over. I have to do it a few times to get the
>>>>>>>> starter motor going. Solenoid?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the mechanic that I asked about it, may be trying to blow
>>>>>>>> smoke up my skirt because I'm a woman, saying it's the starter
>>>> motor
>>>>>>>> that "has a flat spot on the armature" ( yeah right ), and could
>>>>>>>> cost $600! But doesn't it sound like a little old starter solenoid
>>>>>>>> contact or something, which could cost a lot less?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is possible that the contacts on the starter solenoid are worn
>>>> and
>>>>>>> need replacement. If inspection of the solenoid shows worn or
>>>>>>> damaged contact, the contacts are available as replacement parts
>>>>>>> (at least in the U.S.). If you cannot get replacement contacts,
>>>>>>> then
>>>> you
>>>>>>> may have to replace the starter solenoid or entire starter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A flat spot on the armature is a possibility but not a common
>>>> problem
>>>>>>> on Toyota starters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It makes no sense to me, unless the car's been hit or something.
>>>>>>
>>>>> What doesn't make sense? The solenoid or the armature?
>>>>
>>>> That an armature could suddenly develop a "flat spot".
>>>>
>>>> It seems pretty obvious that it's a solenoid contact.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Armatures generally do not suddenly develop flat spots, but they can
>>> wear unevenly over time. The first time the armature loses contact and
>>> the starter does not work, it will seem like a sudden appearance of a
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> In Toyotas, a bad solenoid contact is the most common cause of the
>>> condition you are describing, but it is not the only possible cause.
>>>
>>> In other cars, a bad starter is a more common cause of that condition,
>>> which is probably why your mechanic came up with that diagnosis.
>>
>> He's at Midas. I haven't ever gone to them for repairs and just started
>> going to them for an oil change recently, but if I recall, they're the
>> kind of place that likes to replace the whole brake system instead of
>> just what needs it. Maybe they're the same with the starter motor. Hey,
>> they can fool a woman and charge $600 for the whole thing, right?
>>
>>> One of the things that makes Toyotas easy to work on is that they are
>>> built very consistently and have few one-of-a kind problems. The
>>> downside to that consistency is that if there is a weak spot in the
>>> design, assembly process, or material, almost every vehicle will
>>> eventually develop the same problem.
>>
>> This is THE most reliable car we've ever owned, so far anyway. It has
>> 139,000 miles on it.
>>
>>
> Midas is not high on my list of recommended repair facilities, even for
> mufflers. ;-)


Unfortunately, this seems to be the case almost everywhere.
Since I was working for a parts distributor, I know who to have work on my
cars!
The local Meineke has some really good guys working there, so I usually go
there if it's something over my head, or to have the struts replaced.
There is also a local tire shop that has a couple of really good
mechanics, and one of the two best alingment guys I have ever seen.

 

[Guest]

Bruce L. Bergman <[email protected]> wrote :

> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:46:22 -0600, Angela Marsh
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>
>>> Midas is not high on my list of recommended repair facilities, even
>>> for mufflers. ;-)
>>
>>How come? I sure can't afford Toyota themselves.
>
> Midas, Sears Auto Centers, Goodyear Auto Centers, Jiffy Lube, all
> the big chain repair operations have one thing in common - Corporate
> ownership and lots of micro-management from above.
>
> Known fact: Jiffy Lube tries to lure you in with a $19.99 or $24.99
> Oil Change Special - but Corporate wants them to push the hard-sell,
> the add-on sale, and their is a stated goal to get an average of $60
> out of each ticket, on each visit. (On camera testimony from a
> "Former Manager" with his identity protected, see KCBS series below.)

Well I knew about Sears and wouldn't go there if they were the last
mechanics in the world. They have a horrible reputation.

But with Midas here, they have a $58 card you can buy for 4 oil changes.
I may just use them for that, as long as they won't sabotage my car or
anything. Can I trust them THAT far?

> And all these big companies are doing it - they have their service
> tickets and billing computerized, and they track every employee as
> they make those sales - with salary bonuses for those who produce, and
> eventual dismissal for those who don't.

Great.

> With that kind of pressure to sell or be fired, fraud is rampant -
> KCBS Channel 2 News in Los Angeles just did a big hidden-camera sting
> where they were sold those add-ons - radiator flushes and transmission
> flushes - that were never performed.

They seem to have scammed me a little too. I went in there to get the
brakes checked. Some other mechanic about a year ago, said that I needed
brakes in about a year and that the drums would have to be replaced,
couldn't be turned anymore. So I needed a battery anyway and went in to
Midas to see what they could do, and maybe look at the brakes too. They
had a heavy duty battery for about $78, which was ok, and checked the
brakes. They actually told me that I don't need them for maybe another
year now. I don't drive that much. And they said the drums are ok, which
made it look like the other guy "saw a woman coming" and may have been
trying to scam me.

So they said the rear brakes needed adjusting, so how about that and the
battery? Sure. My mistake was not asking how much to adjust the brakes.
I figured, what could it be? $20? A 10 minute job? NO, the bill for the
battery and brakes came to $169 with tax! Ahhhh!

Fool me once it's your fault, fool me twice it's my fault though.

> They had five people sold a
> transmission flush while they were there, and the sole flush machine
> they had on the premises never moved from it's display spot out front.

Jeez.

> In California, it's prosecutable fraud if they "Oversell" unneeded
> service or repairs through fraud (the old "Squirt oil on the shocks
> and say they're leaking" trick) coercion fear or misrepresentation,
> and another crime if they never perform the work.

Yep, probably in most states.

> The CA Bureau of Automotive Repair has inspectors who run stings and
> make arrests. Sears has been busted numerous times, and once they
> were caught doing the same things at so many locations at once the BAR
> was about to yank all their auto repair shop permits statewide...

Should have been done 20 years ago!

> Midas may have "Advertised Specials" but once they have the car up
> on the rack I can guarantee they are going to find lots of ways to
> bump that bill up. They have to, their job depends on it...

Argh.

> The Toyota Dealer Mechanics are operating under a different edict
> that also inflates the bill: Once they do a repair the work has to be
> guaranteed - so they can't "Just" do a spot repair and change just the
> contacts in the starter solenoid, even if that's all there is wrong.
> If the starter motor fails next, they'd have to replace it for free.
> So they always have to install a complete "Genuine Toyota
> Remanufactured Starter" that costs three times as much as it should.

I guess, but I haven't been able to afford them in years anyway.

> A good starter shop can go through the starter for about $50 - $75,
> change all the wear items and give it back ready for another 100,000
> miles of average use. And on most cars the starters are easy enough
> to get out and in yourself, or an independent mechanic can do it for a
> reasonable price.

Thanks for that advice.

What's the best way to find myself a good reliable honest mechanic (
oxymoron? ) that won't charge me too much, here in my neighborhood?

 

[Guest]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:09:36 -0600, Angela Marsh
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Well I knew about Sears and wouldn't go there if they were the last
>mechanics in the world. They have a horrible reputation.
>
>But with Midas here, they have a $58 card you can buy for 4 oil changes.
>I may just use them for that, as long as they won't sabotage my car or
>anything. Can I trust them THAT far?

Probably - "Trust, but Verify." Most shops know better than to try
outright sabotage, since they never really know that you aren't a BAR
Inspector doing a "Secret Shopper" test on them....

But they might try to instill a little FUD (Fear Uncertainty and
Doubt) to get you to do work that really isn't called for yet -
witness the "your rear brakes are almost due..." claim you got last
year - they were trying to inculcate just enough FUD in you to get you
to say "Okay, they're close, do them now."

The best way to prevent yourself from being ripped off is to learn a
little about how your car works. You don't have to become an NIASE
Certified Mechanic yourself, but getting a basic knowledge of the
systems is a good thing. Many community colleges and high schools
have short 10-week evening courses on exactly this subject.

That way when they say "Your Brake Rotors are worn out" you know the
right questions to ask, and can gauge whether the response is real or
Bullshit. (If they start rattling off stories about fictional things
being the cause like "bad muffler bearings", you can call them on it
right there. There are rubber strap hangers, but no "bearings".)

Why are they bad? Too worn? Warped? Hot Spots? Cracked? Show me
how they are too worn with the measuring caliper, then show me the
minimum thickness marking on the hub...

>What's the best way to find myself a good reliable honest mechanic (
>oxymoron? ) that won't charge me too much, here in my neighborhood?

Ask neighbors with lots of cars. Ask your local Auto Club branch
office, the Auto Club of So. Cal. has a referral program for Certified
Repair Shops, and I suppose most do.

Call your state auto repair licensing, City/County business license
departments, local Police or Sheriffs - lots of complaints on file is
a bad sign.

Ask at the local Chamber of Commerce and BBB - Good shops will be in
good standing, bad shops...

DO NOT rely on claims that can't be independently verified, or the
mechanic sending you to get referrals from people who might be
shilling for the mechanic. Bunco artists still catch people by having
them call "Their Bank" to verify funds in the account - but the number
he gave you is his girlfriend in an apartment across town, with a tape
recording of office background noises to fool you.

One other thing I've seen used: Just because the owner claims to be
a "Good Christian" and prints the 'sign of the fish' and a Cross on
the work orders doesn't necessarily mean it's true...

--<< Bruce >>--

 

[Guest]

Bruce L. Bergman <[email protected]> wrote :

> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:09:36 -0600, Angela Marsh
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Well I knew about Sears and wouldn't go there if they were the last
>>mechanics in the world. They have a horrible reputation.
>>
>>But with Midas here, they have a $58 card you can buy for 4 oil
>>changes. I may just use them for that, as long as they won't sabotage
>>my car or anything. Can I trust them THAT far?
>
> Probably - "Trust, but Verify." Most shops know better than to try
> outright sabotage, since they never really know that you aren't a BAR
> Inspector doing a "Secret Shopper" test on them....
>
> But they might try to instill a little FUD (Fear Uncertainty and
> Doubt) to get you to do work that really isn't called for yet -
> witness the "your rear brakes are almost due..." claim you got last
> year - they were trying to inculcate just enough FUD in you to get
> you to say "Okay, they're close, do them now."
>
> The best way to prevent yourself from being ripped off is to learn
> a
> little about how your car works. You don't have to become an NIASE
> Certified Mechanic yourself, but getting a basic knowledge of the
> systems is a good thing. Many community colleges and high schools
> have short 10-week evening courses on exactly this subject.

Good idea. I know the very basics now but not too much.

> That way when they say "Your Brake Rotors are worn out" you know
> the
> right questions to ask, and can gauge whether the response is real or
> Bullshit. (If they start rattling off stories about fictional
> things being the cause like "bad muffler bearings", you can call them
> on it right there. There are rubber strap hangers, but no
> "bearings".)

LOL!

I used to work with an ex-navy guy who told me about when he first went
aboard a ship and they sent him looking all over for "relative bearing
grease" to grease the relative bearings.

I have an ASET ( Associate in Science in Electronics Technology ) so I'm
not a rote beginner with mechanical things.

> Why are they bad? Too worn? Warped? Hot Spots? Cracked? Show
> me
> how they are too worn with the measuring caliper, then show me the
> minimum thickness marking on the hub...



>>What's the best way to find myself a good reliable honest mechanic (
>>oxymoron? ) that won't charge me too much, here in my neighborhood?
>
> Ask neighbors with lots of cars. Ask your local Auto Club branch
> office, the Auto Club of So. Cal. has a referral program for
> Certified Repair Shops, and I suppose most do.
>
> Call your state auto repair licensing, City/County business license
> departments, local Police or Sheriffs - lots of complaints on file is
> a bad sign.
>
> Ask at the local Chamber of Commerce and BBB - Good shops will be
> in
> good standing, bad shops...

I hate BBB and consider them next to useless. Seen too many bad
characters stay members.

> DO NOT rely on claims that can't be independently verified, or the
> mechanic sending you to get referrals from people who might be
> shilling for the mechanic.

Reminds me of an AC problem I had years ago. Wasn't cooling. Cooled less
and less and then none. Kmart auto dept said I needed a new AC
compressor, $800. I went down the street to a private mechanic who said
I just needed gas, $60, put some in, and the AC worked for 2 more years
until I finally sold the car.

> Bunco artists still catch people by
> having them call "Their Bank" to verify funds in the account - but
> the number he gave you is his girlfriend in an apartment across town,
> with a tape recording of office background noises to fool you.
>
> One other thing I've seen used: Just because the owner claims to be
> a "Good Christian" and prints the 'sign of the fish' and a Cross on
> the work orders doesn't necessarily mean it's true...

That's usually the first sign that I should flee!

Sincere people don't have to abuse Jesus to get business.

 

[Guest]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:09:34 -0600, Angela Marsh wrote:

>> That way when they say "Your Brake Rotors are worn out" you know the
>> right questions to ask, and can gauge whether the response is real or
>> Bullshit. (If they start rattling off stories about fictional things
>> being the cause like "bad muffler bearings", you can call them on it
>> right there. There are rubber strap hangers, but no "bearings".)
>
> LOL!
>
> I used to work with an ex-navy guy who told me about when he first went
> aboard a ship and they sent him looking all over for "relative bearing
> grease" to grease the relative bearings.


In the paper mills it's a Bucket Of Steam, and in the Hospitals it's a
Fallopian Tube...!


>
> I have an ASET ( Associate in Science in Electronics Technology ) so I'm
> not a rote beginner with mechanical things.

Hmmm....me too. But when I got mine, it was in Analog circuitry. Digital
was just starting to come on; I studied it but analog was my thing.
(if the number 7400 means anything to you!



You'd be amazed at how many places hired me BECAUSE I knew Analog better
than Digital!