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I have a ec60 manual transmission installed an aluminium flywheel now it's making a chattering sound from the linkage on top of the transmission. If I push the clutch pedal the sound stops. If I take the stick shift and hold it up or down (without pressing the clutch in) an not put it in gear the noise stops. I emailed monkey wench racing (where I bought the flywheel) they told me...

The aisin 2-shaft transmissions are pretty well known for having some gear clatter when aftermarket flywheels and clutches are used. Same happens in evora.

Any ideas on how to correct it but keeping the aluminium flywheel.

20200407_170146.jpg
 

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Diehard Rams Fan
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21,467 Posts
I have a ec60 manual transmission installed an aluminium flywheel now it's making a chattering sound from the linkage on top of the transmission. If I push the clutch pedal the sound stops. If I take the stick shift and hold it up or down (without pressing the clutch in) an not put it in gear the noise stops. I emailed monkey wench racing (where I bought the flywheel) they told me...

The aisin 2-shaft transmissions are pretty well known for having some gear clatter when aftermarket flywheels and clutches are used. Same happens in evora.

Any ideas on how to correct it but keeping the aluminium flywheel.

View attachment 300306
How bad is the noise? So it doesn't hurt anything and is just an annoyance? Can you live with it?
 

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2016 VW Tiguan SE 4Motion (APR Stage 1, Neuspeed P-flow/wheels)
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120 Posts
That's the price you pay for the lightweight flywheel... the annoying chatter. The harmonic balancer is made to be used with the properties of the heavier stock flywheel.
 

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Light flywheels, and converting from DMF to SMF on other makes, always leads to more noise. My last SMF conversion sounded like mega rod knock at idle. Lighter flywheels, poly mounts or inserts, aftermarket clutches, harmonic balancer swap with underdrive light pulley, worn or loose transmission... all will add NVH.

My only fear is that the flywheel could've been balanced incorrectly, or maybe the clutch/pressure plate is aftermarket and adding to the 'harmonics'. The only way to test this is with another flywheel, different brand clutch/pressureplate/bearing.....

Make sure you are using the correct gear oil for your transmission. What does it require and what grade/brand/PN gear oil did you use?

Watch the linkage. Have someone shift the transmission thru all gears. Add a couple opposing rubber bands to the linkage for a test. Might have to add fishing weights to the linkage or cables.
 

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Super Moderator
2006 Corolla XRS
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8,131 Posts
Are you using solid bushings on the shifter cable ends?

There's always a trade off when using light weight flywheels. In a race car, not hearing these sounds can be a bad thing.

Do you have the original flywheel or did you send it back with the core to MWR?
 

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Diehard Rams Fan
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Light flywheels, and converting from DMF to SMF on other makes, always leads to more noise. My last SMF conversion sounded like mega rod knock at idle. Lighter flywheels, poly mounts or inserts, aftermarket clutches, harmonic balancer swap with underdrive light pulley, worn or loose transmission... all will add NVH.

My only fear is that the flywheel could've been balanced incorrectly, or maybe the clutch/pressure plate is aftermarket and adding to the 'harmonics'. The only way to test this is with another flywheel, different brand clutch/pressureplate/bearing.....

Make sure you are using the correct gear oil for your transmission. What does it require and what grade/brand/PN gear oil did you use?

Watch the linkage. Have someone shift the transmission thru all gears. Add a couple opposing rubber bands to the linkage for a test. Might have to add fishing weights to the linkage or cables.
Luckily the 2ZR doesn't use a harmonic balancer on the crank pulley so that isn't an issue. Did he also add a lightweight crank pulley or were you just talking about this in general?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
How bad is the noise? So it doesn't hurt anything and is just an annoyance? Can you live with it?

The noise is loud and annoying at idle. Monkey Wench Racing didn't say anything about it hurting anything. Honestly no I can't live with it. It's been installed since October of 2019.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Light flywheels, and converting from DMF to SMF on other makes, always leads to more noise. My last SMF conversion sounded like mega rod knock at idle. Lighter flywheels, poly mounts or inserts, aftermarket clutches, harmonic balancer swap with underdrive light pulley, worn or loose transmission... all will add NVH.

My only fear is that the flywheel could've been balanced incorrectly, or maybe the clutch/pressure plate is aftermarket and adding to the 'harmonics'. The only way to test this is with another flywheel, different brand clutch/pressureplate/bearing.....

Make sure you are using the correct gear oil for your transmission. What does it require and what grade/brand/PN gear oil did you use?

Watch the linkage. Have someone shift the transmission thru all gears. Add a couple opposing rubber bands to the linkage for a test. Might have to add fishing weights to the linkage or cables.
Yes I am using the correct gear oil.
MT-LV 70W/75W GL-4 Gear Oil
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Are you using solid bushings on the shifter cable ends?

There's always a trade off when using light weight flywheels. In a race car, not hearing these sounds can be a bad thing.

Do you have the original flywheel or did you send it back with the core to MWR?

Stock bushings
Yes I still have the original flywheel.
 

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Token Aussie
1998 AE102, 2018 ZRE182
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2,094 Posts
Luckily the 2ZR doesn't use a harmonic balancer on the crank pulley so that isn't an issue
I believe the factory 2ZR crank pulley is still a harmonic balancer type, with a thin rubber section between the inner and the outer
 

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Diehard Rams Fan
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I believe the factory 2ZR crank pulley is still a harmonic balancer type, with a thin rubber section between the inner and the outer
A small rubber piece isn't a harmonic balancer. The stock rubber ring will break down and be more out of balance at 50k miles that a balanced lightweight pulley. The 2zr is internally balanced.
 

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It doesn't make a difference if it is externally or internally balanced. It has has a crank balancer unless you removed it for an underdrive or lightweight pulley, which is one of my favorite mods.
 

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Token Aussie
1998 AE102, 2018 ZRE182
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A small rubber piece isn't a harmonic balancer. The stock rubber ring will break down and be more out of balance at 50k miles that a balanced lightweight pulley. The 2zr is internally balanced.
Regardless of how well a crank is weight-balanced there will always be torsional harmonics. Inline-4s are not naturally balanced anyway (which is why some have to have balance shafts), and there is still the issue of wind-up at higher rpm. The crank is receiving intermittent twisting forces from the pistons firing (this is always present no matter how balanced the engine is), the rubber sleeve between the inner and outer sections of the pulley allows some "give" in the twisting and smooth out the drive to anything attached to the crank pulley. 2ZZs were well known for shattering oil pumps at high rpm, this was exacerbated by people fitting solid undamped aftermarket crank pulleys (the OEM 2ZZ pulley is the same design as the 2ZR one)

To quote Matt from MWR

Some older engines were externally balanced and had offset weights at the front and rear of the crank, sometimes built into the crank pulley and flywheel. That has nothing to do with the ZZ.

The ZZ crankshaft is balanced at the factory where they drill holes in the counterweights to get it just right. This has nothing to do with the crank pulley.

Some 4-cylinders have balance shafts which partially cancel out the 2nd order "bouncing" vibration inherent in 4-cylinder engine design. This has nothing to do woth the crank pulley.

Modern engines almost all have a rubber damper built in to the crank pulley. This absorbs twisting and bending vibrations in the crankshaft that occur as the engine runs. If you remove the damper these vibrations will escalate out of control because there is nothing to absorb them.

In the 13 years I've been working on ZZ engines I've seen one broken 1zz crankshaft and one broken 2zz crankshaft. These literally split, broke into two pieces. Both had lightweight undamped crank pulleys. Many failed 2zz oil pumps are due to undamped pulleys. I have seen only two 1zz's with failed oil pumps, both had undamped lightweight crank pulleys. Search the Honda, DSM, Chevy forums for crankshaft failures. You'll find a common theme.

In short, don't do it.
Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
 

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Super Moderator
2006 Corolla XRS
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8,131 Posts
It's possible the crankshaft seal is gone and this is the noise you're hearing.

When it last ran, was this noise there before?
 

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Diehard Rams Fan
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Regardless of how well a crank is weight-balanced there will always be torsional harmonics. Inline-4s are not naturally balanced anyway (which is why some have to have balance shafts), and there is still the issue of wind-up at higher rpm. The crank is receiving intermittent twisting forces from the pistons firing (this is always present no matter how balanced the engine is), the rubber sleeve between the inner and outer sections of the pulley allows some "give" in the twisting and smooth out the drive to anything attached to the crank pulley. 2ZZs were well known for shattering oil pumps at high rpm, this was exacerbated by people fitting solid undamped aftermarket crank pulleys (the OEM 2ZZ pulley is the same design as the 2ZR one)
Most of these arguments are from cars back in the 60's that did use harmonic balancers. Our Corolla uses a rubber damper that can perform worse after just a few years. I don't hear of people replacing their OEM pulleys after 2-3 years because the rubber is failing. This rubber strip is very poor at performing any NVH though so it's a good thing that it's not very important. A stock pulley will have less of a benefit after 3 years than a balanced lightweight pulley.

Most issues with cars having any problems are high revving engines as is the 2zz. The vibrations that commonly produce damage and they would with an OEM pulley exceed 10k rpm. Even the OEM damper isn't tuned for attenuation above 10k rpm, so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.
 

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2006 Corolla XRS
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This is what's making the chattering sound. The peice that the shift cables go to.
Then you will need to pull the shifter shaft.
 

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Yes I am using the correct gear oil.
MT-LV 70W/75W GL-4 Gear Oil
It might be time to use the incorrect gear oil to see if it takes up some of the slack or cushion some of the vibes.
Maybe step up to the MTL and see if it helps.
Drop a rock into a lake/pond on a non-windy day and watch the 'ripple'. Drop a rock in some honey and .....
The OE gear oil recommendation is not a requirement anymore on a modded vehicle. So, MTL, MT85, and MT90, or equivalents, become options, weather permitting, as engine/transmission mods increase.

New shifter shaft bushing? may help or may require a new shifter shaft or both? If the rattle is internal to the transmission and simply transmitted thru the shift shaft/bushing/linkage, then nothing with it will help. Tear the transmission apart and blueprint it nice and tight isn't always feasible. Since the noise goes away with a little load on the gearbox(shifter moving a little forward/backward or clutch depressed), something is on the loose side of spec.
Cut to size and stick a car wash sponge under the shift linkage.

I will assume that you installed and torqued everything to spec. Others, remove and reinstall using a calibrated or newish torque adapter or wrench.
 
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