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Anyone hear of the Kerosene Flush to cure Noisy Lifters

22K views 27 replies 11 participants last post by  msinapi1 
#1 · (Edited)
I have an 2007 Avalon with 3.5L engine and 86k on it. About 6k ago it developed noisy lifters. I have always changed my oil ever 3 k and have done 3 since the noise started. I tried Lucas oil in one, Marvel Mystery Oil in another and Best Line in the last one. Nothing got rid of the ticking. The engine doesn't lose any oil but when I look into the oil cap I can see a small amount of sludge on the internals. So I searched the net and found that this engine is prone to sludging even with regular oil changes. So I was thinking maybe a flush will help, but anything that thins the oil goes against my grain. Then I came against the below posting on the Kerosene Flush. I don't like it for two reasons- 1) there could be a pint of Kerosene left in the engine and 2) it would strip away all the oil on the wear part of the engine. So I thought of modifying the below:

1) drain old oil and save it
2) fill engine with Kerosene and let stand for 24 hours (DO NOT TURN ENGINE ON)
3) Drain Kerosene
4)put in old oil and other old oil you saved (or cheap oil) fill to top, let stand an hour then drain.
5) do a regular oil and filter change
6) turn on engine and do next oil change in 1000 miles

Love to hear any thoughts on this. Any ideas if this would clean the engine and eliminate the Noisy Lifters? I know its is complicated but much less costly then a flush by the dealer. And if Kerosene is harmless to the engine ring, seals etc. it sounds better than any harsh chemical flush.

KEROSENE FLUSH
"I personally wont do that but i was thinking... instead of the traditional flushing method, mixing the engine oil and kerosene and run the engine for the couple of minutes...would it be helpful if we were to drain the engine oil, and refill it up with kerosene and let it stay in the engine overnight and drain off the kerosene next day completely and replace it with fresh engine oil? No running of engine at all, simply fill it up overnight and drain off...


I porsonally believe that it should be safer compare to the traditional flushing method but how effective is such flushing method? Any commment on this?

also, kerosene traped in the engine, that cannot be drained off... the amount could be small, but im afraid that it could caused problem to my engine in long run.. any comment?

my car is relatively young, a 2006' Yaris at 80K miles... i have been using fully Syn oil like Mobil 1, Amsoil and Redline and OCI very 6K miles.. I dont think there is any sludge problem, just want to try it out as a routine preventive maintainance..."
 
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#2 ·
you know, i've heard of using kerosene but never talked to anyone who actually did it (and i'm pretty old).

I know I was really surprised, years ago, when I used some Marvel Mystery oil and it actually solved my problem, so....................????

Not recommending anything, but if you do go the kerosene route be cautious and please let us know how it worked out. If I felt I really had a problem I might be tempted to try it, but I just can't feature using it as a preventive measure

Good luck

Bill
 
#3 ·
I would not do this, but am confused by one of your line items:

2) fill engine with Kerosene and let stand for 24 hours (DO NOT TURN ENGINE ON)

How is kerosene sitting in the bottom of an engine for 24 hrs. w/o movement going to help lifters that sit in the top of the engine?

Item 3 through the end of the list never shows any movement of kerosene, at least as far as it's worded.
 
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#4 ·
Top end noise is normal. Are you running 0w20, 5w20...? synth, blend, or conventional?

Kerosene sitting around in the oil pan for 24hrs will do nothing.

Pull a valve cover off and take pictures.

Since SL/GF4, its pretty impossible to sludge an engine especially with so-called 3k intervals.
SN/GF5, the latest oil spec, will actually clean an engine.

Tried Lucas oil? What does that mean? Lucas motor oil?
Marvel mystery oil? Pint or quart added? substituted for you oil?
Haven't seen BestLine in the local auto part stores so don't know what it is marketed as or doesn't do!

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/1...isy-lifter-after-sitting-body-shop-month.html

Try this:
At your next oil change, add Rislone and use an HM 5w30 full synthetic motor oil. Stick with the Toyota oil filter.
RoyalPurple, Mobil1, and Valvoline have full synthetic high mileage oils.

Pick a different one added to each oil change until you've used all.
http://rislone.com/product/engine-treatment/
http://rislone.com/product/high-performance-oil-treatment/
http://rislone.com/product/3x-concentrated-engine-oil-supplement-with-zinc-treatment/
http://rislone.com/product/engine-treatment-concentrate/

Post back in 12,000 miles after you've run one of each of the above for 3k.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-high-mileage
http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/full-synthetic-max-life
http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/hmx-high-mileage-motor-oil/
 
#5 · (Edited)
If you search on Youtube kerosene flush you can see people who did flush their engine with Kerosene. I found videos of 75% kerosene oil 25%oil, 50_ 50, and someone who did it twice in a row 25-75% (2-timeswith 20 minute idling)(I still don't like running the engine with thin oil). So there are many people who have tried it and said it cleans the engine. I wonder what their long term results are?

The method I was questioning was "filling up the engine and let sit overnight without turning it on" no one said put in 6 quarts. It takes 3 gallons to fill the engine. This is the only way to have the lifters sitting overnight in kerosene. But I think this strips your start up oil, so my question was to modify by draining the dirty kerosene and fill the engine up with 3 gallons of oil. Let sit then drain. Put back in 6 quarts of the cheap oil and run until warm (DO NOT REV just idle). change filter and oil with good oil.

Most products are just thin oil, kerosene with naphta with paraffin, (seafoam), or kerosene and solvents (motor flush), or strong detergents (marvel oil). ATF is another method and supposed to work like Marvel Mystery Oil. Gum Out's Resline has Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate, solvents and parrifins. The Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate is good to clean lifters, but the paraffin's can clog Toyota passages so I didn't try it. Alway check the MSDS on an additive before buying it. What might work on American cars could be bad for foreign cars.

Running 5w-30 SM conventional oil, will look for SN.

Thanks Greasymechteck for the list of other products and oil suggestions I will look at their MSDS. My mechanic and other websites are saying Toyota engines are noisy but it could be normal. I guess I am an American car guy where a noticable change in noise is an issue. At least the mileage, pep, and oil usage (less than a pint /3K) is the same.
 
#6 ·
The solvents strong enough to dissolve lifter clogging deposits fast enough for 'idling for a little bit' are so harsh they'll likely harm seals in the engine and possibly cause worse problems later on. Gentler solvents over long periods are better. I've found that if solvents don't fix the tick then some ATF to the engine oil or a little (1 to .5 ounce) transmission stop leak fixes it. Solvents clean holes out so oil can get in to the lifter, but if the seals in the lifter are hard and flattened the lifter will never pump up and become quiet, seal swell (trans stop leak) in small amounts for a short period of time (just till it stops ticking then let it sit overnight and change the oil) will rejuvenate the small seals in the lifters...but will also rejuvenate the other seals that don't need it and could possibly cause problems later on.


Sure fire way is to pull them, clean them, dope them up with a lil seal swell, pump them up by hand, and put them back in and hope for the best.
 
#7 ·
Hey Bitter, I have heard of people using ATF. Have you ever tried it. How would you do it (what are the steps)? Any type of ATF? How much and how long do you leave it in? What are the possible downsides?

Good point on the seals. I thought of that with the kerosene flush either the idle (harsh and gets to all parts of the engine) or the overnight (gentler on the moving parts) which is why I didn't try it.

What do you think of running the old oil (5q) for a half hour, at idle, with a pint of pure naphta and quart of ATF?
 
#8 ·
I've used ATF to help recondition valve seals in a old 1.8 7A-FE many years ago. It helped slow oil burning and reduced my startup oil puff. For noisy lifters about 1/2 qt added at idle quiets them in about 30 minutes of idling with some revving up and down, the seal swell is more dramatic though quieting noisy lifters in about 5-15 minutes for most V6's like a Mitsubishi or Hyundai. About an ounce in and a trip around the block is all that's needed, then change the oil after a few hundred miles, though by the time the lifters are annoying loud on those engines they have some miles and the other seals are all weeping and leaking oil so the swell does some good on them too.

Your blend sounds acceptable as long as you drive gently and change the oil soon after using it.

Anyway, when I used ATF I'd sub in about 1/2 qt of it for oil or top up the engine when it was about 1/2 qt down and just run it through the whole OCI. I did that for about 5,000 miles roughly and gradually noticed less oily puff at start up. But I was using it for a different purpose, the 7A has solid lifters. In the tappy V6's like mentioned above just so the same thing and see how it goes. Either it helps or does not, but that amount shouldn't pose any harm.
 
#9 ·
I did try a quart of ATF yesterday w a pint of naphta and ran it at idle for a half hour. I changed the oil and plan to do so again in a couple hundred miles. So far I still have the noise.

I looked into the additives Greasymechtech suggested and I will get Rislone Engine Treatment Concentrate tomorrow. Per the MSDS the Engine Treatment is mostly naphta, the 3x is for older engines with wear (not me), and the 710 contains Parafins.

I will keep everyone informed on my progress.
 
#11 ·
OK guys here is my first update:

The lifters are somewhat quieter. At idle you can only hear very little extra noise. On acceleration you can still hear them. Also don't know how long the fix will work, so I plan to keep everyone up to date on the progress. Here is a recap of what iIdid:

1.) before doing oil change I let out the oil in the filter.
2.)I added a quart of ATF and 8oz of Naphta and ran the car at idle for 1/2 hour.
3.) I changed the oil with sightly ticker oil. 3 quarts of 5w 30 and 3 of 10w 40

I plan to leave this in for a couple hundred miles and change it and the filter. Anyone have any views on adding an oz or two of ATF for that period?

After this I plan to put in new oil that I have in my basement Castrol GTX 5w 30 SM and add a bottle of Rislone engine treatment concentrate. For my upcoming 2nd oil change I will look for a synthetic with the new grade of SN.

I'll wait for your views on adding the oz or two of ATF before I do it.
 
#12 ·
Do you have a sludged engine? Did you pull the valve cover to see?


I bought a 2003 Avalon XLS from a little old lady, and she didn't take care of the engine. It was sludged, and the engine still has a valve ticking noise after I got the engine all cleaned up. I believe it is just one valve, and I'm just not going to worry about it for now. After 4 months of working on this car, I'm tired of working on it. The ticking isn't loud, but it is sure there. I hope to be one of the guys who drives his car all the way to 300K miles with the ticking valve. Right now it has 80K on it.


Things I did to clean up engine:


I popped the valve covers and scrapped the sludge out by hand. Very dirty job, but unless you want to take a year to get the sludge out, this is the only way. Getting the rear valve cover off on this car is a lot of work.


I ran a quart of kerosene in the engine for 1,000 miles. You want to freak out about it? OK, but I did it, and my car runs great. It gets good mileage and has very hard acceleration--1MZ-FE engine.


I used Marvel Mystery Oil. I Seafoamed the engine twice. I added 4 oz of Seafoam to the tops of the pistons and let it stay overnight. I used brake cleaner on the cams when the valve covers were off. I also used carburetor cleaner.


The car now runs great. But, all the cleaning didn't stop the valve ticking. It is not real loud, but it is very noticeable. Overall the engine runs quieter and very smooth.





 
#14 ·
You're right, and I've been told that by a Toyota mechanic. I've put about 5,000 miles on the car since the cleanup job without any problems. If I didn't have to pull the exhaust pipe to drop the oil pan, I would have already done it. But, you know how tough it can be with exhaust pipe bolts/nuts, etc. I don't want to do any damage. I guess I'm willing to chance it.


Recent 2,000 mile round trip:


At 67MPH - 29.0MPG
At 70MPH - 28.4MPG
At 75MPH - 25.0MPG
 
#15 · (Edited)
Oil sludge develops because of infrequent oil changes. You changed your oil regularly, so I don't think you have a sludge issue.

I think you might be hearing the variable valve timing sprocket. I doubt all 16 lifters went bad at once, not even 3 at once.

I remember reading about this online. It may not pertain to your problem but is something to be considered.

teardown and find both exhaust phasers were broken, rubbing onto valve covers. small m8 bolts were bent and wedged in timing cover. removed bolts with magnet, replaced both exh phasers with updated camshafts and carrier. time and reassemble, noise gone.

Here is what I was looking for :

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/152-venza-forum/324381-tsb-2gfr-fe-engine-ticking-noise.html
 
#16 ·
I got a 2007 Avalon about 10K miles ago. It was a one owner car (113k miles) with every indication of plenty of good care being taken.


When I got the car the engine was pretty quiet and did not leak a drop of oil from any seals so along with the plug change/trans flush/coolant flush etc. I went ahead and converted it to mobil one. Fast forward about 3500 miles I started to notice it being noisy during warm up. So at 4200 miles I again changed oil and filter (again Mobil 1 factory weight) but it did no good whatsoever.


I think the problem may in my case be quite the opposite of lifters stuck with sludge. Most hydraulic lifters have a small piston that moves inside the lifter body due to oil pressure to take up any valve clearance. I have my suspicions that the lifters on this car may have excessive clearance and an insufficient oil supply (there is usually an arrangement of small discs or other method to control the rate at which oil is fed to the piston bore) therefore by changing from a good conventional oil to a thinner (recommended weight) synthetic oil the rate of bleed down is too great due to both the difference in the oil and the likelihood that it also cleaned varnish from the inside of the lifter body ( that's why the noise occurred slowly over 3500 miles not right after the oil change.


Anyhow I may switch back to a conventional oil possibly a 10-30 just to see if it makes a difference, mine is not a quiet ticking not a tapping but as a former mechanic NIASE master tech it drives me nuts LOL. I sure wish Toyota would not have given in to Uhmarkin thinking and gone to hydraulics...so much better with shim on bucket...plus if it ever did develop any ticking you could be sure you had a part failing (and know it was time to stop quickly) not just some stupid lifter noise.
 
#19 ·
Mobil1 transmits more noise than other synthetics. I use Pennzoil Platinum or Quaker State Ultimate. But all of my 2GR-Fe engines have had the kluk kluk kluk of the Toyota VVT system. None ever leaked or consumed oil. I trade them in at 200,000 miles.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Endzone you have more guts then me to run thinned out oil for 1k miles. If your heads are that dirty your pan will be twice as bad and probably have varnish in it. You can try draining your oil and let straight kerosene sit in your pan for a day (do not run it), if you don't want to drop the pan.

For your dirty engine you would be the perfect person for the kerosene flush. You can try 50 - 50 run it for a 1/2 hour with something to condition the seals (in this tread 1 oz transmission sealer was suggested) and then drain and change the filter. Do it a second time. Then refill with SN synthetic oil. Follow with a fill up of premium gas. See if this helps.

When I look thru the oil fill up cap my engine was not has bad as yours, so I have no desire to pull the covers unless I can't get rid of the noise. However, After two changes with 1 qt ATF, the last with also 8oz of Naphta my noise decreased. I am running a tankful of premium gas now and that appears to also help. I am somewhere between 75% to 90% there in eliminating my noise. In a couple of hundred more miles I will add the Rislone Engine Treatment Concentrate and SN oil for my next oil change. Please keep us up to date on your progress.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I would try simply running a synthetic oil and do 5000 mile oil changes and stop flushing the engine with solvents. Synthetic oils will do some cleaning the best being Redline which is a Group V PAO based oil.

http://www.redlineoil.com/

My second choice would be Pennzoil Platinum from Walmart. You will probably never get that engine completely clean unless you disassemble it. Flushing it will simply damage it further.

BTW change your PCV valve.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Thanks Yota3,

I have a long history with Mobil 1 using M1 lubricants it in all my race cars which...engine, auto trans, rear end (over the years not like a got 10 at once LOL) and am reluctant to change to another brand.

This was my first Toyota with VVT and I agree with you that the noise is most likely just a byproduct of the VVT system.

I drive about 80 miles a day average so I extend my oil changes to about 7500 with synthetic. Right now (127K) I got about 7k on the current change and the oil is at exactly the same level it was when I changed it so I am totally happy with things and no longer give the slight noise during warmup a second thought.

Thanks again for your input.
 
#22 ·
Update

UPDATE - Car now has 90.5k. The ticking is gone but two weeks after the treatment a sucking sound started. Like when you put your lips together and leave a space the size of a finger and suck air in fast. I can hear the car coming from over a hundred feet away. I tried Rislone engine treatment concentrate with the oil change it had no effect.
 
#24 ·
I don't think so since it just came back from two visits to the dealer and their total car check. Also due the volume of this sound, the hole would have to be huge. But thank you, it is a good idea to check for a leak. I will spray starting fluid around all the hoses I can see.
 
#26 ·
Liq Moly flush is basically Naphtha and I don't think it has seal conditioners in it. I used pure Naphtha with ATF (to condition the seals) and it partly worked for a short time only.
Another point on why I don't think the car has a vacuum leak, my Avalon just passed inspection. It should not have passed if there is a vacuum leak.
 
#27 · (Edited)
it will clean most of the guck out of the motor. the seals should still be ok, unless the abused the hell out of the car.

my 06 is at 240k km (150k miles) and no issues. the amount of oil that goes in is what comes out on the change. i am rather amazed.

marvel mystery oil could help with the seal issues based on what i have read. have used it in the fuel and through the brake booster line, but never in the oil. allegedly it is supposed to help with seals,etc

I ran some liqui moly proline engine flush for 15 minutes before my last oil change. the ticking sound almost disappeared, and my idle is lower, about 600rpm vs 900rpm.
 
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