[toku58]

I'd like to clear a few things up.

1) Our uniball upper arms were designed to be used with our Camburg coilovers, SAW, DR, King with 2"-2.5" of true lift. The problem with the stock arm is that when you raise the ride height you lose much needed castor. When I say 2"-2.5" of lift I mean exactly that. Many times people install spacer type lifts or different coil springs that say you're getting 2.5" but you get 1.5" or 3". Ride height is very critical when aligning the truck. We build more castor into our arms to correct the geometry flaw the stock arms create whe lifting the truck.

2) Measuring the tube of the arm and trying to compare it to other arms like Total Chaos's isnt going to tell you much. Our tube is around 7" and their's is 6.5". The main reason why the tubes are different lengths is because they dive their tube more towards the inside portion of the uniball cup and we have ours go more to the back for added clearance. Thats why the tube lengths are different. That will not effect geometry, placement of the actual uniball cup will. It's placement is dictated by the jig fixtures we build them in.

3) We have sold a ton of these arms and install a lot of them and dont have customers calling us back saying their truck wont align. We installed 5 sets of these arms the last part of Dec before xmas and every single truck aligned to proper specs. The problem lies a lot of times with alignment shops that dont really understand suspension geometry and are only trying to align the truck to factory specs. Well if we build an arm to add more castor to the truck, they are going to try and take out that castor because their printed manual tells them otherwise. If someones ride height is too high or too low, that will also effect the situation.

4) We use Dave's Frame & Alignment to align every truck we build. He is the best of the best. He's old school and doesnt use computers to align it nor do you need a computer to align the truck properly. If that werent the case then he wouldnt be aligning $300K+ race cars from some of the top road race teams were geometry is far more complicated and critical. Our little offroad trucks are a walk in the park for him ... but not for most. How many of your alignments shops you use actually understand suspension geometry and the handling characteristics of every change ... not many I'm sure. They know how to enter "2005 Toyota Tacoma" into a computer to tell them what to do.

Here's one of the trucks we just did with our coilovers set at 2" of lift with our uniball upper arms ... no alignment problems with this one and the customer couldnt be happier.

Looking at the pictures posted here, they are using our arms with a spacer type lift or a different coil spring. Well if the lift isnt a real 2"-2.5" then that could be why they are having an issue aligning the truck, or the person aligning it isnt doing it correctly. Their are many variables that cant be addressed online.

Feel free to call me at the shop if you have more questions. We'll continue to look into this but at this point I dont see a flaw with our product since we dont have alignment problems with our 2005-2007 Tacoma/FJ upper uniball arms, but we are always improving our product lines if need be and striving to build the best. Keep me updated and I will do the same.

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering

 

[toku58]

This was my reply!

LOL!!! Is that the best you got???
Why can't you just be honest with these guys? I've actually seen Camburgs that were 6 1/2" long just like the TC's??
So was that set of UCA's Wrong Because it had a computer printout that stated the alignment was correct?
And you stated:
"Our tube is around 7" and their's is 6.5". The main reason why the tubes are different lengths is because they dive their tube more towards the inside portion of the uniball cup and we have ours go more to the back for added clearance."

A picture says a thousand words!

I can't believe that you are trying to say that others are to blame?! (the alignment computer non the less)That we need to have some sort of super expert inorder to get these thing aligned correctly?
If anything The UCA's should have made it EASIER to align!!
So TC's must be a 10X better than Camburg because the exact same person did my alignment both times. And he stated that with the TC's it was a "piece of cake" to get the truck correct! But with the Camburgs it was impossible!!
So I guess What you are telling everyone is that if they are going to buy aset of Camburg UCA's they need to find, and seek out a special "Guru" a one in a million person if they ever want to have there truck drive correctly!!

Holly Crap!! I taught Camburg had more integrity then that???!!!
That is a shame!!!

 

[toku58]

I guess the conclusion is that if you choose to buy Camburg?

Then you need to find a Specialist, a master among masters in the alignment field in order to have your truck aligned!

But if you want your truck to be "easy" to align? So basically any alignment shop in the world can do it correctly. Then you need to buy a set of Total Chaos!!!

How stupid does he think truck owners are???

 

[amp2oo1]

Dude you are hell bent on slander arent you?


Did you just ignore the parts where he said that their arms are designed to work with COs with less lift than new spring/spacers?

 

[Adventure North]

From those pics it does appear that the camburg tubes are 0.5" longer.

 

[SP Jon M3]

Did you just ignore the parts where he said that their arms are designed to work with COs with less lift than new spring/spacers?

Lift is lift. a 2.5" spacer does not change the suspension geometry any differently than a CO raised to 2.5".

Not only than why was another brand of UCA able to be aligned properly, yet the camburg could not?

 

[Hans Moleman]

I knew Camburgs sucked because of inferior hardware and uniball, but I had no idea their geometry were designed so bad. I'm so glad I got the total chaos arms at first. Still no squeek from the tc arms :clap:

 

[amp2oo1]

Lift is lift. a 2.5" spacer does not change the suspension geometry any differently than a CO raised to 2.5".

but doesnt the toytec lift give 3" of lift, which is out of the camburg aparently ridiculously tight tolerance range?

 

[movielife]

correct me if I am wrong. but are not the camburgs able to be adjusted to 3" of lift?!

 

[Adventure North]

Personally all I'm seeing is a war of words, both sides are making arguments and both sides think they are right. I wouldn't be so brash as to start chopping a product or their customer service just because their product did not work out for you though, and that's what appears to be happening here. I personally have not seen anything that would indicate poor quality or build on the part of Camburg, the only thing I have seen proven is slight differences between two similar products. If a product does not work for you that does not mean it is defective or poorly built does it? If Camburg designs their control arms for more travel while set and matched with a 2-2.5" coilover netting 2-2.5" of lift then what reason is there to assume otherwise or doubt their claims. From everything I've seen they have not marketed their control arms to be used in any other fashion nor have indicated or signaled to consumers that they are designed to achieve perfect alignment when matched with a coil spring product netting 3" of lift or more. It's unfortunate when a product we had hoped would work to solve an issue does not but hey that's life, trail and error right. I don't see the need though to try and damage Camburgs reputation by flaming them due to a less then perfect outcome based on an assumption something would work to correct an issue one has. I think in this case we need to see a little more humility, and a little more personal responsibility for the choices that have been made. That's just the way it appears to me based on the information provided by both sides.

Camburgs responce in case you guys missed it at TTORA.

Toku & some of you are putting words into my mouth and reading between the lines.

1) I NEVER said you only have to take it to our alignment guy a "GURU" of sorts. What I said is that you need to take it to a qualified alignment shop that knows how to align a lifted truck. Thats goes with any companies suspension system, ours, Total Chaos or anyone else for that matter. You'd be surprised on how many "alignment shops" dont know what they are doing.

2) This whole tube length measurement is a non-issue. Like I said it DOES NOT dictate any of the geometry, the placement of the uniball cup does. If the notch is different, or it's fitted to the uniball cup slightly different the length will vary slightly. If you're trying to come up with a true dimension you need to be dealing with center lines with all the pivot points. NOT how long a tube is when our tubes will be a different length than the TC's because of where the tube comes into the uniball cup like explained above.

3) Like I said our arm was designed around 2-2.5" of true lift and getting maximum wheel travel. Our arm gets more travel than the TC arm because of the geometry we build into our arms. Maybe the TC is easier to align with your aftermarket springs, but that doesnt mean ours is incorrect or flawed. We didnt build our arms around spacer lifts or aftermarket coil springs, we built it to be used with adjustable coilovers.

4) We have some of the best customer service in the offroad industry, if that were not the case then I wouldnt be discussing this right now. If anyone feels they have an issuse with any of our products give us a call and we'll work with you. But if you're not willing to take the time to do that then their is nothing we can do, even though we are more than gladly to. We cant help those who dont want help and are not willing to make that effort.

5) In regards to our jig ... their is nothing wrong with it, nor has their been any problems with it. I'm not sure who would have told you this, because someone up front isnt going to know every detail about it. Do we make changes to our jigs at time ... YES We are always improving our products and also stream-lining our production procedures. That doesnt mean we're correcting a flaw. Before any product is released to the public we insure that the truck is able to be aligned correctly, which we have since 2005 when we released these arms.

Like I've explained above, every truck we've installed these on aligns and doesnt have tire wear or handling issues. I didnt say this was a closed subject and I will continue to look into this, but if I dont run into the problems some of you may because you're using different parts (springs) than I do its hard to know exactly what you're running into. I have a brand new FJ coming in this friday that were are installing our coilovers and upper arms on. I'm gonna assume I'm not going to have any alignment problems because I have yet to have any problems.

I cant say it enough and it feels like some people arent listening .. call us at the shop and we'll work through your issues.

- Scott @ Camburg Engineering

 

[toku58]

Thanks for posting the response AN! But the outcome wasn't less than perfect? It made it Worse! Even if it didn't help that would be O.K. at least I gained travel? But it should never have made the problem WORSE. I think if my truck had only 2" of lift it would have been un-drivable?

Here is my reply from the post on TTORA:


I'm glad to see that Scott is willing to work things out! When I called they gave me nothing but outstanding customer service!!

With that being said.

My lift is indeed 3" but if anything the extra 1/2" of lift would have made my truck have more NEG camber. But that was not the case. My truck had way too much Positive camber.

The thing that made me upset was every one and their uncle is trying to say that you need an EXPERT to align your truck with the Camburgs.
But I had a high school kid on a Hunter do it perfectly with the Total Chaos.

Now if Camburg is going to take care of the trucks that cannot be aligned then it is all good!!

Camburg make some great products!!!

I was just in shock when his first reply sounded like he was not going to help these other people?

For myself they were Outstanding! Soon as it was varified that the alignment was maxed and impossible to be corrected. My issue was take care of.

Good luck to those who may have this issue!! I am sure Scott and his team will do the right thing!!

 

[toku58]

Dude you are hell bent on slander arent you?


Did you just ignore the parts where he said that their arms are designed to work with COs with less lift than new spring/spacers?

I am not hell bent on slander!
I am hell bent on correcting the issues that others are experiencing!! That I have already gone through.
Maybe I should not even bother? Because I could just say "I got mine now let the next guy take care of his own problem!" My truck is perfectly fine now.
But that is not my style!!
I would do everything in my power to make sure that the other people who are having trouble are well informed, and I will do anything, that I can to see that it is corrected!!

For me I gain NOTHING by doing this!
Well maybe a big headache!!:dunno:
But I want to see that others have the support that I didn't!!
I live in Hawaii!!! We don't walk away from an issue when we can help! Simply because it is not our problem!!
I don't turn my back on anyone who needs help!!

Sorry for the rant!!