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Discussion Starter #1
I am trying to use a 3S-GE out of an 86 Celica that was manual transmission. I have the wiring harness and TCCS from the Celica but it won't run the A540H, of course. So, I'm trying to determine the best course of action to get to compatible. I'm even wondering if it is impossible to use two ECU's at once, one for the EFI and the other for the Transmission.
 

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3s-gte in a Camry?!?
'89 Camry Alltrac
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Glad to see you came over from Facebook...

I thought about this a bit more over the weekend. Your best plan is to scrap your 1st gen 3s-ge plans and do a 5s-fe swap. You'll be within ~5hp of your 3s-ge option, but have more torque and you won't have to do ANY wiring.

The basics is this: Use the 5s-fe engine long block (use a Celica or MR2 engine with distributor). All manifolds, accessories, wiring, etc. will be from your current 3s-fe. You will need to grind the back of the engine block for clearance for the transfer gear housing, but otherwise you won't need any modifications. One of the transfer stiffeners also won't bolt up... but the main one still does.

This is what the back of the 5s-fe block looks like to clear the AWD transfer case:



That picture was the engine from the 3s-ge BEAMS project I did a few years back (in the car before I got it with a blown motor). That was a manual trans Alltrac though...

-Charlie
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Ok, thanks Charlie. I might go that route. I did just put a ton of $ into the 3s-ge though.
 

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What's the part number on the 3S-GE ecu that you have? ToyoDIY lists one ECU part number for all North American GT-Ss (including a coupe with an automatic - ToyoDIY.com).

Doesn't mean there won't still be a huge amount of wiring work to do.
 

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3s-gte in a Camry?!?
'89 Camry Alltrac
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What's the part number on the 3S-GE ecu that you have? ToyoDIY lists one ECU part number for all North American GT-Ss (including a coupe with an automatic - ToyoDIY.com).

Doesn't mean there won't still be a huge amount of wiring work to do.
The problem there is that the 3s-ge auto uses an A140E trans and the Alltrac auto is an A540F - they are not compatible control systems (so, the 3s-ge auto can't run the A540F trans).

-Charlie
 

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The problem there is that the 3s-ge auto uses an A140E trans and the Alltrac auto is an A540F - they are not compatible control systems (so, the 3s-ge auto can't run the A540F trans).

-Charlie
My knowledge of the automatics is pretty weak, so generally I'd defer to you or someone else Charlie.

However, I found some documents online that suggest they have identical solenoid layouts/engagement patterns and gear ratios (except reverse). Forum rules don't let me link those docs but if you search for A140E and A540H you should be able to find them. That's not conclusive, but I'd want to look more at the BGBs before I said it wouldn't work because they're different transmissions.

Anyway, I'm curious if you know specifically what the differences are Charlie? (other than the diff-lock control)
 

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3s-gte in a Camry?!?
'89 Camry Alltrac
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Anyway, I'm curious if you know specifically what the differences are Charlie? (other than the diff-lock control)
That's actually a big part of the issue. The two transmissions have the same number of solenoids for shifting control (gears and OD lockup) but the AWD transmission has extra speed sensors for the F/R output speeds and control for the center diff auto locking. The ECT computer is different and has different connectors/pinout.

Of course, now looking more closely at this... there is a chance that the 3s-ge engine ECU (if for an auto) would work with the A540H transmission computer... Diagrams would need to be acquired and compared.

-Charlie

PS. I messed up earlier, it is the A540H, not F... I'm too used to my E153F and A340F transmissions...
 
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That's actually a big part of the issue. The two transmissions have the same number of solenoids for shifting control (gears and OD lockup) but the AWD transmission has extra speed sensors for the F/R output speeds and control for the center diff auto locking. The ECT computer is different and has different connectors/pinout.

Of course, now looking more closely at this... there is a chance that the 3s-ge engine ECU (if for an auto) would work with the A540H transmission computer... Diagrams would need to be acquired and compared.

-Charlie

PS. I messed up earlier, it is the A540H, not F... I'm too used to my E153F and A340F transmissions...
It's all alphabet soup! To make it more confusing there is an A540E too. :D

Originally I was going to suggest a toggle switch for the diff - but I see what you're saying - agreed that it may be possible. First step would be to see if the ECU would even work for an auto. @tomknud - I think you're into unknown territory, at this point it depends on how badly you want the 3SGE.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
It appears that 3s-ge autos have a separate controller for the transmission, thus the reason the ecu is unchanged across those models(89530-20090 from toyodiy). So, this ecu certainly won't run the A540H, but the extent tccs will. I still like the idea of leaving it there while while adding the 3s-ge and its control kit. I'm wondering, though, whether the ect function of the 3s-fe tccs will operate while it ISN'T hooked up to an actual running engine.
 

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3s-gte in a Camry?!?
'89 Camry Alltrac
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There are a few connections between the ECU and TCU.

Here's a likely ST162 3s-ge pinout:


Here's a likely 3s-fe pinout (looks like it is missing the trans connections):



I suggest you get a hard copy of your specific year Camry wiring diagrams (check ebay) for the project. Verify for yourself everything I'm posting here... All the power and ground pin names will match with stuff on your 3s-fe ECU. If there is ever a question, you can open the ECU and look at the names on the PCB itself.

The only connections between the transmission control computer and the ECU are L1, L2, L3, OD1 and IDL. Everything else is separate.... so this may work. IDL is the 'idle' signal from the throttle body (throttle closed, tells the trans to unlock the torque converter). I don't know the 'direction' of the other signals, but they connect directly between the ECU and TCU.

One thing you will have trouble with - the shift points will be a bit low for the 3s-fe. I don't think you'll ever be able to get to the 3s-ge redline, as the trans will shift early.

-Charlie
 
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The only connections between the transmission control computer and the ECU are L1, L2, L3, OD1 and IDL. Everything else is separate.... so this may work. IDL is the 'idle' signal from the throttle body (throttle closed, tells the trans to unlock the torque converter). I don't know the 'direction' of the other signals, but they connect directly between the ECU and TCU.

One thing you will have trouble with - the shift points will be a bit low for the 3s-fe. I don't think you'll ever be able to get to the 3s-ge redline, as the trans will shift early.

-Charlie
For the signal "direction", my EWD states:
"During driving, the computer selects the shift for each gear... ...based on input signals from the ECU to terminals IDL, L1, L2 and L3 of the ECT computer, and also the input signals to terminal SP2... ...from the speed sensor"

It doesn't specifically mention it but I'd guess the OD1 signal is also an input to the TCU (and an output from the ECU).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
There are a few connections between the ECU and TCU.

Here's a likely ST162 3s-ge pinout:


Here's a likely 3s-fe pinout (looks like it is missing the trans connections):



I suggest you get a hard copy of your specific year Camry wiring diagrams (check ebay) for the project. Verify for yourself everything I'm posting here... All the power and ground pin names will match with stuff on your 3s-fe ECU. If there is ever a question, you can open the ECU and look at the names on the PCB itself.

The only connections between the transmission control computer and the ECU are L1, L2, L3, OD1 and IDL. Everything else is separate.... so this may work. IDL is the 'idle' signal from the throttle body (throttle closed, tells the trans to unlock the torque converter). I don't know the 'direction' of the other signals, but they connect directly between the ECU and TCU.

One thing you will have trouble with - the shift points will be a bit low for the 3s-fe. I don't think you'll ever be able to get to the 3s-ge redline, as the trans will shift early.

-Charlie
I've ordered the manuals for 1990 camry but probably wont get them for the 86 gts though. I'm still worried the ecu wont operate when not connected to a running engine though. Thanks for info.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
For the signal "direction", my EWD states:
"During driving, the computer selects the shift for each gear... ...based on input signals from the ECU to terminals IDL, L1, L2 and L3 of the ECT computer, and also the input signals to terminal SP2... ...from the speed sensor"

It doesn't specifically mention it but I'd guess the OD1 signal is also an input to the TCU (and an output from the ECU).
In the case of the 90 Camry, I think it's the same cpu running both engine and transmission.
 

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I've ordered the manuals for 1990 camry but probably wont get them for the 86 gts though. I'm still worried the ecu wont operate when not connected to a running engine though. Thanks for info.
In the case of the 90 Camry, I think it's the same cpu running both engine and transmission.
The 90 EWD I have shows two separate computers in the Camry. I don't have any hands-on experience with the auto cars though.

I know you quoted Charlie, but what do you mean about the ECU not being connected to a running engine? I think we're both suggesting (please correct me if I'm wrong Charlie) that you may be able to connect the 3SGE ECU's transmission-related outputs to the relevant Camry's TCU inputs. Run the engine on it's ECU, and the transmission on it's TCU.

I would encourage you to get a full BGB for the 3SGE donor as well, or at least the EWD and transmission sections. You
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The 90 EWD I have shows two separate computers in the Camry. I don't have any hands-on experience with the auto cars though.

I know you quoted Charlie, but what do you mean about the ECU not being connected to a running engine? I think we're both suggesting (please correct me if I'm wrong Charlie) that you may be able to connect the 3SGE ECU's transmission-related outputs to the relevant Camry's TCU inputs. Run the engine on it's ECU, and the transmission on it's TCU.

I would encourage you to get a full BGB for the 3SGE donor as well, or at least the EWD and transmission sections. You
I think you're mistaken. Nothing about the 3sge can be tcu related. The TCU will remain between the in place A540H and the 3sfe tccs. But, I'll have to add the 3sge's tccs and wiring for the engine. So there will be two tccs's running, one for the engine and the other for the transmission. The one for the transmission wont have an engine hooked to its I/O.
 

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3s-gte in a Camry?!?
'89 Camry Alltrac
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In the case of the 90 Camry, I think it's the same cpu running both engine and transmission.
Nope. Only for the V6. On the 4 cylinder, there is a separate transmission ECU ("ECT ECU" in Toyota parlance). The Celica is setup the same way for that generation.

The Alltrac TCU is different than the FWD TCU and even located in different spot... but it is there.

-Charlie
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Nope. Only for the V6. On the 4 cylinder, there is a separate transmission ECU ("ECT ECU" in Toyota parlance). The Celica is setup the same way for that generation.

The Alltrac TCU is different than the FWD TCU and even located in different spot... but it is there.

-Charlie
OH, yes, I have been reading a V6 wiring diagram in lieu of the 4Cyl and presumed it would be the same. The separate controller for the transmission would make this a much easier swap, wouldn't it? Sorry for the confusion Flying Dutchman. Can you say where the all trac TCU is located within the body? Also, where are you guys sourcing a good copper core radiator for your all trac Camry's? any ideas? Thanks
Tom
 

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OH, yes, I have been reading a V6 wiring diagram in lieu of the 4Cyl and presumed it would be the same. The separate controller for the transmission would make this a much easier swap, wouldn't it? Sorry for the confusion Flying Dutchman. Can you say where the all trac TCU is located within the body? Also, where are you guys sourcing a good copper core radiator for your all trac Camry's? any ideas? Thanks
Tom
Yes, we're hoping that Toyota saved money by keeping the TCU/ECU communication similar between models, which would make this swap possible. It's certainly not guaranteed though. You might want to try to find a way to test it before you get everything in the car.

That's alright, it can get a bit confusing. Anytime you're looking at the Camry BGB double check that the section you're reading applies to the four-cylinder alltrac.

TCU location - check you manual - "Positions of Parts in the Instrument Panel". Looks like it should be in the area between the radio and the ash tray, or maybe beneath the ash tray.

Can't help you with the radiator.
 

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3s-gte in a Camry?!?
'89 Camry Alltrac
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TCU location - check you manual - "Positions of Parts in the Instrument Panel". Looks like it should be in the area between the radio and the ash tray, or maybe beneath the ash tray.
That's my memory too. Been many years since I removed it though. I think the FWD TCU is up behind the glove compartment somewhere. If this is going to work, he won't even have to mess with the TCU though - all the necessary wires will be right at ECU connector, ready to be swapped over.

-Charlie
 
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