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Considering buying a 2nd gen...

45460 Views 914 Replies 22 Participants Last post by  Kingdom934
Hello. I've owned two cars in the past; a used 2008 Toyota Yaris (that I only owned for five months before totaling it in a car crash), then a new 2011 Mazda2, which I totally loved every day until it was repossessed and immediately auctioned due to financial troubles on my part earlier this year. I've been without a car now for three months in the most car-dependent state on the planet, and yeah, it sucks.

So now that I'm steadily employed and relatively financially stable again, I need another car, and fast. I absolutely do not want to deal with monthly payments, aside from auto insurance and regular maintenance/gas. At first, I was looking at 4th generation Camrys, since they're still everywhere and those were the last generation of said reliable car before all the cars started getting really fat and bloated (high beltines, anyone?). But the average price of those Camrys is too high for me to save up for at the moment ($2300-$3300). I also looked at used 2000s cars to buy outright, but most under $2500 are full of problems. So I opted for pre-1997 cars for less than $2000.

That's where the 2nd generation Camry comes in. Here in Southern California, especially in L.A. and vicinity, there are still quite a few of these 1987-1991 Camrys zipping around, and with no rust. In my city alone, there are probably a dozen or so of them on the roads (white seems to be the popular color of choice). I see enough of them daily to where I feel they have proven themselves to be sturdy, reliable vehicles for their age. I see just as many 1986-89 and 1990-93 Honda Accords and Civics here, but those are stolen even more, and I don't need that. I also could have opted for the just-as-good-if-not-better 3rd generation Camrys (1992-1996), but they're too round and ordinary-looking for my taste. The 2nd gen Camrys got it right IMO, not too boxy but not too round either.

So I've been doing extensive research on these 2nd gen Camrys every single day for the past month now, and there are over 100 of them for sale locally on craigslist. Many have between 100K and 200k miles; I've even seen some with 300,000+ miles on them (!!!). So I'm currently saving up about $1500 for one, that seems like a reasonable price to me. Now I am not a mechanic nor am I very mechanically inclined with cars (the most I've done is change the air filter on my 2011 Mazda2), however I'm willing to learn what is needed to keep the car running smoothly. In fact, it kinda seems like it would make me feel more personally attached to the car, thus making it even more special. I would not typically drive long distances in the car, I just need to get to my job and college (all within a few miles) and occasionally my friend's house and stuff like that. Local driving, mostly. However I should mention that the roads here are pretty crappy in general. We also have many, many curvy & twisty roads, often with long, gradual as well as very steep grades/inclines. I hope the Camry can handle it.

I do love listening to music, oh man do I love me some good tunes. So I've already looked into Pioneer audio systems for the car just in case, as I don't believe the stock stereo/speakers will do the bass any real justice.

As for safety, to be honest, I'm not all that concerned. Post-1985 cars I'm not worried about. It has just enough for me, I'm fairly minimal in my preferences in a car. All I need is a good sound system, A/C and the typical power steering/etc and I'm set. I'm 23, by the way.

So tl;dr - are these good cars? Is $1500 worth it? Any advice/tips/recommendations/etc? Thank you.
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Back to a carburetor with an O2 sensor...uh, yeah, that's weird. Hmmm.

(Hey, did I see it right? Is it a 1 wire O2 sensor? If so, the exhaust is it's ground and it needs a clean ground to work!)

There has to be some electronic way to effect that carburetor then...or some how indirectly?

Or is it simpler than that, it's only there to report with a check engine light when the air/fuel mix is too far off. So it'd see the wrong thing if the carburetor was set up wrong, or if the ignition wasn't burning the mix well enough. Or worse, the engine is losing compression - a few reasons quickly why an O2 sensor wouldn't see what it should be getting and set a check engine light.
Maybe something has changed for Ford, but the motorcraft plugs are simply awesome on a Ford.
Agreed, but basically Autolite makes Motorcraft and is slightly cheaper - so same plug for less money = win.

Back on to Hondas. Yes, they like their Honda power steering fluid. Wait, yours is so old, I think that may have been when Honda ran great with 10w-40 oil in the transmission?
Bottom line - Honda has changed their fluid requirements over the years, and I'm more familiar with the 1990's cars. Temeku has the shop manual for the car - just use what it said and don't go pouring Dexron in the PS reservoir b/c that is what Toyota is okay with ...
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Okay. It's easy to see in the pictures that one of the spark plugs is oily. Important question: did the oil get there from the outside of the combustion chamber or in the combustion chamber?

If from the outside, that'd explain ignition issues because the oil is getting in the way of good transmission from the spark plug wire to the spark plug.

When I look at your spark plugs from the side, I see spark plugs running rich.

When you take a picture from the top where they are more of a gray, that color says lean. It's almost like as combustion is happening one part of the spark plug sees a lean experience, and the other rich - maybe that's because it gets a carburetor instead of fuel injectors?

Time to have an expert port that engine of yours to get a better air/fuel mix ;). LOL

I have seen plenty of spark plugs where I saw oil on the blade and the oil didn't come from the combustion chamber, it got there when the spark plug was removed - just food for thought.
I knew I'd find evidence of rich-running when I pulled the spark plugs, that's why I wanted to look at them in the first place. Exactly where the oil is coming from, I don't know. It's not on the outside of the block (even the leaking valve cover gasket isn't seeping oil all the way down there). Oil on most of the spark plug threads has been an ongoing problem though, it was also evident on the previous spark plugs I removed back in June. Way back earlier in this thread, I remember someone mentioning that this is likely due to worn valve stem seals or something to that effect (explaining the brief puff of grey/blue smoke from the tailpipe upon startup as well).

Not sure how I overlooked the brand of spark plugs - there's like three places under the hood, plus the service manual, where it specifically mentions to only use NGK spark plugs for this engine. I think I bought champions from rockauto because they were listed as "OE TYPE" but that's not really good enough now that I think about it in retrospect. Since they're cheap and very easy to replace, I'll go ahead and buy this set of NGK spark plugs (my engine is the 1.8L).

(Hey, did I see it right? Is it a 1 wire O2 sensor? If so, the exhaust is it's ground and it needs a clean ground to work!)

There has to be some electronic way to effect that carburetor then...or some how indirectly?

Or is it simpler than that, it's only there to report with a check engine light when the air/fuel mix is too far off. So it'd see the wrong thing if the carburetor was set up wrong, or if the ignition wasn't burning the mix well enough. Or worse, the engine is losing compression - a few reasons quickly why an O2 sensor wouldn't see what it should be getting and set a check engine light.
I can sand the exhaust ground off today when I swap the sensor out. This car has no MIL/check engine light, much to my frustration at times.

Agreed, but basically Autolite makes Motorcraft and is slightly cheaper - so same plug for less money = win.



Bottom line - Honda has changed their fluid requirements over the years, and I'm more familiar with the 1990's cars. Temeku has the shop manual for the car - just use what it said and don't go pouring Dexron in the PS reservoir b/c that is what Toyota is okay with ...
I found some eBay listings for power steering fluid that is 1984 Honda Accord-compatible, apparently. Same with the AT fluid.

Forgot to mention that it rained again a couple of nights ago, so before going to work the next morning, I quickly popped the hood and looked around - the ignition coil was covered in condensation, and it was dripping onto the terminal studs where the ICM/distributor wires connect to it. Due to the lack of insulation under the hood, there was quite a bit of this all around, so I dried everything off as much as I could and started the car. Took a couple of tries, and ran badly for a couple of minutes, but then it was fine. Much better than last week after it had rained then. The ignition coil does have a rubber boot that is supposed to fit onto it and shield the studs/electrical components, but I could never get it to fit on there properly.
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If it rains again - if the engine is cold, you can spray WD-40 on the plug wires and coil and coil wire and distributor.

I'm wondering if there used to be insulation under the hood - although I don't think I remember it on my 1984, but ...
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I've been sick for the last few days and sleeping more than usual, so I haven't gotten around to swapping the oxygen sensor yet. I did purchase those NGK plugs though. Auto wrecker says they processed and shipped my combination switch a few days ago, so I'm also waiting for that. That'll be fun to replace.
Hope you get better soon to start wrenching!
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The halfway mark will just be 0.5 quart of 4.5 or 5 quarts... not a huge deal. It is good you are keeping an eye on it though. And it is probably burning more than leaking (a half quart leak would create some BIG oil spots).

-Charlie
I keep a close eye on the oil of all of my family and friends' cars. My mom's '08 Yaris started having the oil pressure light come on for just a second under heavy braking/sharp turns - pulled the dipstick and it was bone-dry except for on the very tip. That was a couple of months ago, and the oil still keeps magically vanishing from that car every time I add some (4 quarts vanishes over the course of about 3,500 miles). Somehow that engine (VVT-i) survived without any funny noises or problems. I just keep adding oil every couple of weeks since the car is driven a lot. It has 144K miles on it, and the oil isn't leaking anywhere. Some people tell me it might be a problem with defective piston rings or something to that effect...

Oh, and videos like this. :D

"I'm driving it right now actua *KABOOM* "


Epic.

I've had people who thought the red 'OIL' light mean it was low on oil. I had to edumacate them on that....
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I've had people who thought the red 'OIL' light mean it was low on oil. I had to edumacate them on that....
That was my wife with her first car. If the oil light came on, she would finish her drive, then check/add oil. She did something like 3 oil changes over its ~145k mile life before the engine blew on the biggest freeway in LA, in the middle of the night, in the ghetto... about 2 years before I met her.

-Charlie
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That was my wife with her first car. If the oil light came on, she would finish her drive, then check/add oil. She did something like 3 oil changes over its ~145k mile life before the engine blew on the biggest freeway in LA, in the middle of the night, in the ghetto... about 2 years before I met her.

-Charlie
Has she let you save her from herself since? :)
2
Took a bit of effort (and penetrating oil), but I finally managed to free the old oxygen sensor this morning:



Doesn't look too good, huh? And it gets better: the "replacement" oxygen sensor I have, not only looks different, but is much longer.



Because it looks too long to me (might even bottom out if I try to thread it into the exhaust manifold, which I imagine would be bad), I'm putting the old one back in and ordering another oxygen sensor that looks the same as the old one. Rockauto has it for $15. Now we wait another few days....

Someone asked about how oxygen sensors work on a carbureted engine - well I think I may have found an answer to that question. Wikipedia's article on carburetors shows this:

Feedback Carburetors

In the 1980s, many American-market vehicles used "feedback" carburetors that dynamically adjusted the fuel/air mixture in response to signals from an exhaust gas oxygen sensor to provide a stoichiometric ratio to enable the optimal function of the catalytic converter. Feedback carburetors were mainly used because they were less expensive than fuel injection systems; they worked well enough to meet 1980s emissions requirements and were based on existing carburetor designs. Frequently, feedback carburetors were used in lower trim versions of a car (whereas higher specification versions were equipped with fuel injection). However, their complexity compared to both non-feedback carburetors and to fuel injection made them problematic and difficult to service. Eventually falling hardware prices and tighter emissions standards caused fuel injection to supplant carburetors in new-vehicle production.
Maybe my Honda Keihin carburetor is one of these "feedback carburetors"?
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If it rains again - if the engine is cold, you can spray WD-40 on the plug wires and coil and coil wire and distributor.

I'm wondering if there used to be insulation under the hood - although I don't think I remember it on my 1984, but ...
Each time I came back to the thread I read this and I thought, "This seems like it'd work, but why does it work."

Silly me WD-40 was Nasa's 40th attempt to find the best water displacement oil. Since it outperformed the previous tests, it was chosen. I don't know if Nasa kept testing after no. 40, I heard once they did, and they learned certain oils were better for other purposes...but alas, I felt suspicious of the man telling me that in the 80's when I was a child, but the first part of the story has been repeatedly confirmed.

Originally, it was fish oil, I don't know if it's made cheaper synthetically now, but I bet if it still smells better when it's old, then the stink I used to smell from these cans in the 80's won't be re-witnessed!
Guesses, that my google searches haven't yet backed up

Took a bit of effort (and penetrating oil), but I finally managed to free the old oxygen sensor this morning:



Doesn't look too good, huh? And it gets better: the "replacement" oxygen sensor I have, not only looks different, but is much longer.



Because it looks too long to me (might even bottom out if I try to thread it into the exhaust manifold, which I imagine would be bad), I'm putting the old one back in and ordering another oxygen sensor that looks the same as the old one. Rockauto has it for $15. Now we wait another few days....

Someone asked about how oxygen sensors work on a carbureted engine - well I think I may have found an answer to that question. Wikipedia's article on carburetors shows this:



Maybe my Honda Keihin carburetor is one of these "feedback carburetors"?
That'd be awesome.

Feedback carburetor. :)

Hmmm, I gotta say...that your old O2 sensor looks like the chinese O2 sensor I took a risk on for my downstream O2 sensor on my Chevy Prizm aka Corolla (okay to do, but not an upstream sensor, but Toyota's are very sensitive).

Those cheap sideways cuts...I don't know the look of an original Honda, but for a Toyota, that old sensor looked Chinese.

Theoretically, a larger sensor would still see the same, but if a smaller one was correct I'd feel better about less of a restriction on the exhaust.
Google searching 1984 Honda Accord Sedan LX (I guessed a bit on your car, sorry) oxygen sensor reveals tons of sensors for sale that look like your new one. It's hard to see by length on a photo though...

I tried looking at an OEM one, but I'm not surprised that its $184 and it's a wire diagram instead of with photo clarity.

I speak not from my own experience but the diag guy at my first shop when he says, "aftermarket sensors that look about truly OEM" may be the only way to get around original equipment on a Toyota. I don't know Honda's to be as famously sensitive to having the perfect oxygen sensor.
This is what I get for commenting so much before doing research...

...okay, using the part no. for the 1984 Honda Accord Sedan, 4 gear automatic that I mentioned, showing images, revealed oxygen sensors like the one you pulled out.

I hope all that typing had value beyond the final result, lol.

Many images were water marked Bosch.
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My mom's '08 Yaris started having the oil pressure light come on for just a second under heavy braking/sharp turnshttps://youtu.be/3kEMD2YmAo8
There is a TSB on here for oil usage in the Camry - not sure if it applies to the Yaris - but might be worth looking into - then again, I would think someone else would have mentioned it if it was ...
There is a TSB on here for oil usage in the Camry - not sure if it applies to the Yaris - but might be worth looking into - then again, I would think someone else would have mentioned it if it was ...
I made a thread on EricTheCarGuy's forum about it a while back, and some of those users told me that it may be defective piston rings (since I had gone through all of the other checks).

My new oxygen sensor and NGK spark plugs both arrived in the mail yesterday (that was quick!) so this morning I swapped them out. Somehow, the old oxygen sensor was completely coated in soot this time (as opposed to just half-coated last week). Fortunately the new sensor already had anti-seize applied to the threads, so I simply screwed it in nice and tight. Some of the anti-seize was actually on the sensor itself, so I swabbed it off with a Q-tip.



Swapped the spark plugs too. The new NGK plugs were nice and shiny. I gapped them properly then installed them. Started the car (took a few tries as it always does on cold starts), but then it ran like normal. Didn't actually go for a drive yet, I was only making sure I didn't screw anything up.
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Ran a few errands in the Accord today, which included lots of city stop-and-go traffic and some mountain driving. I will say this: The problem with very poor performance and sluggish acceleration on cold-starts, is completely gone now. I've never seen the car accelerate this smoothly and easily. Doesn't bog or even slightly hesitate anymore. However, it does still randomly misfire every once in a blue moon (only did it once today, but still) and the idle is still iffy (RPM too low/shaking) once the car is warmed up. Not sure if it's running rich anymore, I don't smell that strange odor at idle anymore. Either way, the car appears to be running better now.
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I made a thread on EricTheCarGuy's forum about it a while back, and some of those users told me that it may be defective piston rings (since I had gone through all of the other checks).
Yaris - http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/1...-2azfxe-hybrid-oil-consumption-thread-15.html - See Reply 598 - the problem with the 2.4 was too small oil drain holes on the pistons leading to failure of the rings. Didn't go through the whole thread, but I think Toyota is rebuilding engines up to 150K miles under warranty if they fail an oil consumption test at the dealer. Not sure if they are doing anything for the Yaris, but it couldn't hurt to ask at the dealer or in the Yaris forum on here.
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Ran a few errands in the Accord today, which included lots of city stop-and-go traffic and some mountain driving. I will say this: The problem with very poor performance and sluggish acceleration on cold-starts, is completely gone now. I've never seen the car accelerate this smoothly and easily. Doesn't bog or even slightly hesitate anymore. However, it does still randomly misfire every once in a blue moon (only did it once today, but still) and the idle is still iffy (RPM too low/shaking) once the car is warmed up. Not sure if it's running rich anymore, I don't smell that strange odor at idle anymore. Either way, the car appears to be running better now.
Low idle is a sign of running rich. The reason being, is that the car is reducing air to satisfy the oxygen sensor seeing a richer condition, and thus a low idle.

In my Corolla experience, running rich eats oxygen sensors. 9 months without replacing one was a good run.

In other words, while you have replaced like I did, over and over real problems, they're possibly just a symptom of another problem. Why mine was running rich is probably not useful to you...
...just the same. Does the Accord have an EVAP system? The side that goes to the gas tank, if you pull that hose off and the intake is sucking air, and it always gets air, then it also is always pulling fuel vapors. Mine was doing that because I reversed in the in and out off this purge solenoid and the valve couldn't stop the flow.

In your circumstance, what are more likely issues for running rich? You said almost everything is ran on vacuum? Does any of that effect fuel or fuel vapors? Do you have a diagram of the correct setup? It's common on these old cars to have something hooked up wrong and cause issues.
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