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Diffcult alignment choices, need some help.

5K views 36 replies 6 participants last post by  Camry452 
#1 ·
My car was in an accident last year and the front passenger side alignment was off even after alignment. (I replaced lower control arm and ball joint before alignment.) The camber was 1 degree too negative, i.e., the top of the wheel tilts toward the cabin for 1 degree more than the mid point of accepted range. Another consequence is that the caster on that wheel is 0.8 degree too straight. See the attached picture for details. At that time, the shop owner told me that either that strut or the knuckle was bent. He thought the more likely culprit is the strut. So I recent replaced all the 4 struts and 4 end links recently. I also replaced a slightly faulty wheel and balanced all 4 wheels at Costco.

Now I am debating whether and where I should bring my car to do another alignment. So first whether I should do it? I observed that all the bolts attaching the strut to knuckle was very strict. There seems to be no leeway for alignment shop to play with without adding a camber bolt. So should I do an alignment? And should I buy a camber bolt first and then go to alignment shop? How do they charge for installation of the camber bolt?

Second, Pepboys near me charges $130 for lifetime alignment ($180 minus $50 coupon). The shop I used to go to charges $70 each time. I am debating whether I should use the indy shop again. The pro and con is obvious. I am just not sure about chain store like Pepboy's quality of service. Any suggestions on where to go to get it done?

Finally, I am not sure that the symptom that bothers me the most is related to alignment. The car used to make a rhythmic sound once speed is over 40mph. The sound is hard to describe, sounds like one wheel is not balanced or something like it. After I replaced the struts, it is better, but it will still come back around 60-70 mph. So is it really related to alignment at all? I feel that this is the only time I need to find a REALLY good mechanic to take a listen. Noise and vibration related to suspension is VERY hard to track down. I probably finally need help from a very good mechanic. Anybody can recommend one in SF bay area? Thanks a lot.
 

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#2 ·
There is movement/play between the knuckle and the strut in fact camber can be tweaked by loosening the bolts when the car is on the alignment rack. You should get a proper 4 wheel alignment.
 
#4 ·
Thanks. If you need to make a choice, would you go with an indy shop with decent reputation, or a major chain for their lifetime alignment? Our cars are old. Wheel bearings, tie-rod, axle etc all might need to be worked on. So lifetime alignment sounds enticing to me.


Also I cannot FEEL any vibration. I can only hear it. For a car to make that rhythmic sound, I am not sure negative camber is responsible. Lots of guys modify their cars to have negative camber for racing or just for the look. They should not hear that kind of noise, right? That makes me thinking about wheel bearings. Is it possible the bearings were damaged during the accident?
 
#3 ·
Stock, there is very, very little camber alignment possible on these cars, we're talking half a degree. Seeing your before and after, I believe the shop did all they could. Caster is not adjustable (without uncommon aftermarket caster kits). Camber bolts will get you in spec, but you have to remember to torque those correctly as they like to work themselves loose over time. Instructions say to install the bolts in the upper hole, but in my experience you'll get more adjustment by sticking it in a bottom hole on a Toyota. Shop may charge extra to install camber bolts as they have to take a wheel off to do that (not necessary otherwise for alignment).



For the 60-70mph vibration, something is out of balance or out of round. Assuming the tires are balanced well and the wheels are not terribly bent (if they are, rotating the wheels should move the vibration to another corner), get yourself a Machinist's Dial Indicator (<$20 from HF) and measure the runout on the rotor and the hub face. If it's more than 2-3 thou out of round, you will have issues. I would guess it's more likely that the hub got bent than the whole knuckle.



I've heard enough of stories about "lifetime" alignment shops. I'm sure there are good ones somewhere out there, but I take my car to an $80 alignment indy shop. Even then, they know that I'll need more than just the "toe 'n' go" service, so they charge me $100 (which I'm fine with for a good alignment), and I work with the tech to get the car aligned to the specs that I want.
 
#5 ·
For the 60-70mph vibration, something is out of balance or out of round. Assuming the tires are balanced well and the wheels are not terribly bent (if they are, rotating the wheels should move the vibration to another corner), get yourself a Machinist's Dial Indicator (<$20 from HF) and measure the runout on the rotor and the hub face. If it's more than 2-3 thou out of round, you will have issues. I would guess it's more likely that the hub got bent than the whole knuckle.

Like I explained, all four wheels are good now and they are balanced recently. Rotors are petty new. Only 10k miles. Can you explain how hub can be bent? I guess I need to search youtube video to find a sound that sounds similar to mine. Very frustrating.
 
#9 ·
I guess it's all academic, until the vehicle is re-aligned w/ the new struts installed to verify that was the damaged component. Whoever did your last alignment appears to have modern alignment equipment, based on the report you posted. @71Corolla does bring up a good point - a smaller independent shop, even if they are not running the latest equipment (ie: can generate that fancy report) may not 'push you out the door' as quick, vs. a larger shop / chain that is doing 2-3 alignments an hour.

I'd do what @slavie recommends, move RF wheel to the back to see if vibration follows the wheel, and DIY (or have the shop do) a Dial Indicator run-out on the wheel hub, if any doubt it was damaged also. re: rotor - since you replaced it after the accident: that wouldn't be my first 'suspect' of the cause of vibration.

Making sure the caliper slide pins are free / greased / not binding, doing a 6/12 and a 3/9 wheel check for any play issues, and doing a tie rod / steering rack movement check for play wouldn't be a bad idea, and are relatively quick checks you can do.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Sure. I shall check all of them carefully when I have time. It is just that after considering all the possibilities, the bearing seems to be the most fragile one to fail.

I just finished watching some videos on how to change the bearing. Man, it is a manly man's job. How I wish that we can change the whole hub assembly by removing three bolts. What is the easiest way to do this in our Camry?

Given the difficulty, is it a good idea to pull a hole knuckle in good condition from junk yard and just put it on my car? That will make life a lot easier. Or can we buy a full knuckle with bearings and hub assembly?
 
#11 · (Edited)
I actually can find a full knuckle with everything by Moog on RockAuto for about $200. That will save me a lot of hassle. A good quality wheel bearing and hub assembly set is about $70. If I replace the full knuckle, I can also rule out hub assembly and knuckle deformation as well. That is almost everything except for the rotor which I am very confident with.

After I replace this $200 item, it almost seems that the car has to work well. There is nothing else to fail except the strut tower, correct?

$200 sounds a lot. But I do not have to buy a press, a torch. (I do have a sliding hammer.) I am wondering whether it is a smart thing to do
 
#12 ·
For what it's worth, when I was in the same situation - slid off the road sideways putting high load on the wheel, had same time of vibration at 70+, especially when in long sweeping turns on the highway that side was loaded - I replaced everything but the hub and knuckle. New wheels, tires, rotors, ball joints, brake pads, calipers, wheel bearing, control arm bushings. Did not have a problem with alignment, so the issue was not tied to alignment. Every new part the vibration changed a little, but it was still there. I never measured the runout on the hub at that time because nobody suggested it.

Your issue may be different, but this was my very frustrating experience. Also, you do not need a torch to replace the wheel bearing. Finally, the bearing can be replaced in situ with this or similar, if you decide to go down that path:
https://www.harborfreight.com/front-wheel-bearing-adapters-63728.html
No press required.

Good luck!
 
#13 ·
Thanks. Did you finally fix your problem? So all noise disappeared after you replaced the bearing?


Can you find a good youtube video on how to do this using the HF tool? By in situ, do I have to disconnect strut from knuckle, or do I have to disconnect ball joint from knuckle? If either, that will be fantastic.


But I think I will replace the hub anyway. It is 18 years old and will be further mangled when I remove the inner race from it. So just put a new one in should be fine. The whole set at RockAuto is $70. Should be a Moog hub and a National bearing. If there are better brands, please let me know. I know Timken is a popular choice for hub. Not sure about bearings. Seems SFK is a made-in-Japan brand in the old days. Not sure now. Any recommendation will be great!


I have been listening youtube bearing noise for a long while. I can hear the sound, my steering wheel is loose and when I make swiping right turn, the sound is minimal. When I make swiping left turn, the sound is more obvious. Seems to be bearing. I shall check the wheel play right now.



For what it's worth, when I was in the same situation - slid off the road sideways putting high load on the wheel, had same time of vibration at 70+, especially when in long sweeping turns on the highway that side was loaded - I replaced everything but the hub and knuckle. New wheels, tires, rotors, ball joints, brake pads, calipers, wheel bearing, control arm bushings. Did not have a problem with alignment, so the issue was not tied to alignment. Every new part the vibration changed a little, but it was still there. I never measured the runout on the hub at that time because nobody suggested it.

Your issue may be different, but this was my very frustrating experience. Also, you do not need a torch to replace the wheel bearing. Finally, the bearing can be replaced in situ with this or similar, if you decide to go down that path:
https://www.harborfreight.com/front-wheel-bearing-adapters-63728.html
No press required.

Good luck!
 
#15 ·
What is RF axle carrier assembly? And what is RF camber adjustment?


I just checked that the front passenger side wheel has no play at 12 and 6 o'clock. It has a bit of cluck at 3 and 9. But the drive side front wheel is exactly the same. So I am not even sure what is going on. Anyone can explain? Even if the passenger side tie-rod is shot, the driver side should not clunk a little. I also spined both front wheels and I did not hear any special sound.
 
#18 ·
The right passenger (RF) CV axle has a bearing on the inner race, and runs through a carrier, to support the CV axle - that's what I'm referring to. If you want to read more about it, see here: https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...-2003/395155-diy-passenger-cv-shaft-pics.html

* At this point though, don't worry about it.


RF camber adjustment - see your 1st post, first paragraph. And the alignment report. Only saying -if- the alignment shop cannot get the right passenger (RF) camber back into spec. w/ the new strut, they will need to use a different camber adjustment bolt. * Either they will have that bolt in stock / available, or you will need to provide. Discuss this w/ the shop you choose - explain the work you've done (strut replacement), and show them the original alignment report.

re: clunking sound at 3 - 9 'o clock - need to check tie rod ends. Outer usually fail, before inner. With both front wheels off the ground, have a helper turn the steering wheel, engine off, and watch / listen / feel for movement / sound / play on each side, between the steering knuckle -> & the steering rack. You can usually see & 'feel' the clunk, if a tie rod end is bad, holding the tie rod while it's being turned back <-> and forth.
 
#20 ·
There's no right or wrong answer as to which part to get - it's a matter of how much you value your time. I've had bad aftermarket parts, but I've also had bad OEM parts (one time, a Ford OEM belt tensioner on a Mazda quit on me prematurely). Since I've had bad aftermarket parts more times and I value my time more and more these days, I'd rather pay 1.5-2 times more for OEM parts and have a much, much higher chance of the repair lasting longer. If the difference in price is 4x, I'll go aftermarket route - as I did with sway bar links where OEM was 4-5 times the price of aftermarket. The aftermarket links failed after 20k miles and I had to re-do them again, but it was a quick job and I still saved money in the long run.



If you have more time then money, go ahead and use aftermarket parts. Even if you have to re-do the job later, you'll still likely save money, but not your time.


Either way, I would highly recommend you measure the runout on the rotor and hub first. Proper diagnosis is ALWAYS time well spent as compared to just throwing new parts at the problem.
 
#21 ·
Look for a used hub with the lowest mileage possible does the salvage yard put the mileage on the glass? Here they started doing that then for some reason stopped.
 
#22 ·
I wish they do! The normal price for a FWD car, spindle and hub is $34 plus $3 charge. In a sale, it is about $20 total plus tax and environment fee. So probably $30 out of the door. I guess I shall do just that.
 

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#23 ·
Wasn't trying to be sarcastic, if it came across that way, apologies -

2 bills for a complete knuckle/hub/bearing assembly is a good price. Cost me over that just for the tools to do the repair, without any parts. Tools are sitting here until I use them late spring /early summer to change out the RF wheel bearing, then they'll just sit again, on a shelf.

Local trusted shop did the last wheel bearing service here late summer / early fall '18, was quoted $150 / wheel, ended up being $240 / wheel, an extra hour labor each, they had to use heat to get the old bearings out / took more time. That was without parts (hub/bearing) - I supplied them. Ended up being about $300 / wheel, when all was said and done. It was pricey, but fair. I didn't consider that amount 'outrageous', given the time / and work the shop had to do. I couldn't have done the work here at that time, in any event.

Front right side took a hit Thanksgiving week '18, while driving out-of-area on Interstate, unfamiliar road interchange, was dark/raining: hit a pot-hole that was essentially a damm 'crater', that took out the rear wheel bearing - and I suspect borked the newly-install front wheel bearing, as well. (That's usually my luck.)

Hence the tools purchase: since the wheel bearings are a recent install, I'm hopeful I can remove them myself, this go around. If not, I'll be bringing the entire knuckle back to the local trusted shop, to have them press out <-> press in a new bearing. And getting another alignment.

If your asking for advice on purchasing 'pick-n-pull' vs. new Moog - best I can offer is new has new parts, and should be warrantied. Your going to need an alignment after replacing the knuckle, whether a used or new purchase.




If it was here - since it took a hit / was in an accident - I'd be replacing the whole assembly, regardless.
 
#24 ·
If you want to do this right get the cleanest looking knuckles you can find and take them to a shop to get new bearings pressed in. The Beck/Arnley bearings on Rockauto are reboxed Koyo this is identical to OEM. I didn't see a wheel seal kit on Rockauto but National should make one.
 
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#25 ·
Toyota got rid of wheel seals on Gen4 - the bearing itself is sealed.


And "find the cleanest looking hub" strategy has failed me in the past - got one that still had original black factory paint on it (unheard of here in the rust belt), couldn't believe my eyes. When I pressed out the existing bearing it turned out the knucklehead that did the last bearing job managed to press things in sideways and damaged the bearing bore.Short for options, I proceed to pres in a new $130 OEM bearing into it (this was on a Mazda, bearings more expensive), 6 months later the bearing failed. The life lottery failed me on that one.



Got a used "normal" looking hub from a junkyard, left the original bearing in, the thing ran like a champ. Go figure.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I have been thinking about this issue all weekend. I have no pulsation when braking. So my rotors should be good. There really is no way to tell whether I have a bad bearing, a bad wheel hub, or both. Wheel hub and bearing are always together. Even if I find that the hub is out of round with a dial gauge, there is no way for me to be sure exactly which part is bad. So I have to replace the bearing and the hub together. There simply is no way around it.

(P.S. Maybe not. Caliper is mounted on knuckle, rotor is mounted on hub. If hub is bad and rotate in and out, it will resemble a warped rotor and I should get pulsation. The fact that there is no pulsation means that most likely hub is still good. Only bearings are shot. But I am not taking the risk. Here is an example that hub can be bad without obvious symptoms.
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...25-wheel-bearing-hub-assembly-timken-kit.html

)
Lastly, can a knuckle be bent? Here is a video with a bent knuckle





Of course, the Civic has double A arms. The knuckle is a lot longer than ours and easier to be bent. The following ETCG video and the comments below show that knuckle can possibly been bent, though a lot less than other parts.






Also one comment was really relevant:
I have a '99 Accord V6. I had the same kind of crash - low speed (20 mph) skidding into the curb with the wheels turned left. For me it was the steering knuckle itself. Of course I didn't fix it right away, so I ruined RF and LR tires. I had it assessed by 3 shops. Then I bought a used knuckle from breakers yard for $70 with 70k miles on it. Had a shop put it on for me, did an alignment and then rechecked it 3 times. It's fixed! And the rims are OK. But I had to buy new tires :D


So what do I know? I need to replace hub and bearing. And my knuckle COULD be bent as well. So if I put a good hub and a good bearing in my possibly bent knuckle, I can get rid of the noise. But then I still might need a camber bolt get camber right. And I still won't be able to get the caster right. So it seems the only way to go is either spend $200 plus tax and shipping to get that Moog knuckle assembly, or $70 to try my luck on a used one from junkyard. No other practical solutions.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I bit the bullet and bought the Moog complete assembly. Will attack the R&R in two weeks. Hopefully, the rabbit hole stops here. Here are the torque specs.

Lug nut: 21mm, 76 ft lbs.
Axle nut: 30mm, 217 ft lbs.
Ball joint castle nut: 19mm, 90 ft lbs.
Strut & Knuckle bolts: 22mm, 156 ft lbs.
Outer tie rod to knuckle: ?mm, 36 ft lbs.
Front caliper bracket bolts: ?mm, 79 ft lbs.

I have a question about removing outer tie rod. After I loosen the castle nut, do I have to loosen the jam nuts between inner and outer tie rod before I remove the outer tie rod from knuckle?

Or, since I am going to throw away the knuckle, I do not need to mess with tie rod at all. I can undo the struts and lower BJ from knuckle, pull the knuckle from under outer tie rod? That will be much easier.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Camber bolt is a cute little thing. Here strut hole is the stationary part. The nut side shares the same center as the thinner and threaded shaft and the strut hole. The bolt hat side shares the same center as the thicker part of the shaft and knuckle hole. In the foreground of the 2nd picture, we can see a + and a - sign. The - sign marks the place where the thicker shaft and thinner shaft align on the same plane. The + sign marks the place where they differ the most.

So as I rotate the bolt, the knuckle rides on the thicker part and a distance is created between the center of knuckle hole and the center of strut hole. I obtain the most negative camber when the most eccentric part, marked by + sign, is facing inward towards cabin.

But I am a bit confused that when camber is correctly adjusted, there's the possibility that the ride height and track will also be slightly off?

Also the nut is obviously oval. Very hard to turn.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 
#32 ·
I’d follow Moog directions. You’d think they know better than a Subaru forum (NASIOC)? Give the Moog tech line a call if you’re concerned.

When I did a ball park camber alignment I used a digital leveler. The good old bubble level should work fine too for driving to the alignment shop. Just make sure the leveler is vertical and parallel to the rim. Set the bubble between the lines.
 
#34 ·
I am not going to install this camber bolt myself. I will install a new Moog knuckle, complete with hub and bearing and all other small stuff. Hopefully that will take care of both the alignment issue and the bearing noise. This camber bolt is the last resort in case the alignment is still off with new knuckle and new strut. This is only possible if the place where the three bolts attach strut mount to strut is deformed. I hope it won't happen. As of now, I need about 1 degree positive camber to make it perfect. So it goes to the top hole. Moog and slavie's suggestions are the same here.



But I am concerned about this camber bolt. What is the part number for OEM camber bolt? I searched hard and cannot find it.


However, I found an old thread in which the OP used the same camber bolt and brought the alignment back to correct.


https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...adjustment-kit-2001-camry-5sfe-questions.html
 
#36 ·
Let me put a closure to this thread. It turned out that the noise was caused by my rear wheel bearings. And I replaced both of them. All noises were gone after that. Details here.
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...iest-way-replace-rear-wheel-hub-assembly.html
I also tried to do alignment myself. And I completely failed. Details here.
https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...2314-who-has-performed-alignment-himself.html
In the end, I got the lifetime alignment deal from Pep Boys and they only adjusted front and rear toes smack in the middle. My cambers returned into the normal range, as a consequence of the strut assembly changes. So I returned the camber bolts. Now all parameters are within spec. It is just that the right caster is too straight. However, given my left caster is also straight. This might not be a problem.
 
#37 ·
@qqzj, for what it's worth it is not the shop that makes the difference it is the guy who is doing the work who makes the difference. I have been taking my 01 Camry with 260K miles on it to the same chain shop for several years and the guy who does the tire installs and alignments is amazing. He asks me what is the car doing and what should he be looking for. Two weeks ago I bought two new tires (to finish a matched set of four) and I had a 4 wheel alignment done. The Tech had a little difficulty getting the alignment where he wanted it and he came and got me twice and showed me what he was doing and why. He drove my car 3 times before he was happy and needless to say I was very happy with the results. Now this is just me and YMMV. Good luck.
 
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