Toyota Nation Forum banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered
roads.
True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car
rust quicker if garaged with the salt slush and moisture on it
(dripping on the floor)? Or is it better to keep the car outside
the garage in the natural frozen winter elements?
Of course the driver does routine maintenance on the vehicle.
Maybe even a few commercial (undercarriage rinse) car washes
from time to time…

Has there been any studies done?
Will it matter if the garage floor is epoxy coated or natural
concrete?
Insulated and unheated garage and other combos...

TP
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
The only issue I can think of is that if the garage is heated and if
there is some humidity in the air, this will add to the rusting process
on the car. Other than that, I do not think there is any real
difference if its garaged or not.
I'm not sure what the floor of the garage has to do with it either.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
In article <[email protected]>, TP
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered
> roads.
> True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car
> rust quicker if garaged with the salt slush and moisture on it
> (dripping on the floor)? Or is it better to keep the car outside
> the garage in the natural frozen winter elements?
> Of course the driver does routine maintenance on the vehicle.
> Maybe even a few commercial (undercarriage rinse) car washes
> from time to time…
>
> Has there been any studies done?
> Will it matter if the garage floor is epoxy coated or natural
> concrete?
> Insulated and unheated garage and other combos...


The principal governing factor is that the chemical reaction occurs
more quickly at higher temperatures. That argues against garaging and
especially against heated garaging.

Other factors are second-order. If epoxying the floor allows you to
clear out the slush often, that's good; else the difference is
negligible during the winter. However, the salt absorbed into an
untreated cement floor will have a small effect when the car is garaged
wet in the summertime.

Some years ago I read that Rochester (western NY, for our distant
readers) uses 7% of all the road salt in the US. To me that's a
jaw-dropper. I wish I'd saved the newspaper article so I could
attribute it here.

Brent
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
TP wrote:
> Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered roads.
> True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car rust
> quicker if garaged with the salt slush and moisture on it (dripping on
> the floor)? Or is it better to keep the car outside the garage in the
> natural frozen winter elements?
> Of course the driver does routine maintenance on the vehicle. Maybe
> even a few commercial (undercarriage rinse) car washes from time to time…
>
> Has there been any studies done?
> Will it matter if the garage floor is epoxy coated or natural concrete?
> Insulated and unheated garage and other combos...
>
> TP



In general chemical reactions occur more rapidly with higher
temperatures than they do at lower temps. So, if the garage keeps the
vehicle warmer then it would be if left outside then the answer is
probably yes.

John
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I've never seen any authority on this, but I would agree with John,
that it would be worse in a heated garage. Not only do many chemical
reactions occur faster at higher temps, but when you melt the
ice/salt/slush, I would think it would give it more opportunity to get
into cracks, crevices, etc. If you kept it cold and frozen till it
could be washed off, I would think that would be better.

And the other question is, how much difference does it really make, as
compared to the other benefits of having the car garaged, ie
warmer/easier start so less wear on the engine, more comfy, no frozen
doors, windshield ice, etc.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I would think they're two issues as far as an unheated garage. First
humidity would be higher as vapor would not be chased off and outgas as
readily as in heat, result is comparitively higher humidity over a
longer period of time but at slightly cooler termperatures. Second
retention of water even if the floor is coated by definition is higher
as it is a "closed environment" My two cents.... Doc
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
TP wrote:
> Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered
> roads.
> True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car
> rust quicker if garaged with the salt slush and moisture on it
> (dripping on the floor)? Or is it better to keep the car outside
> the garage in the natural frozen winter elements?
> Of course the driver does routine maintenance on the vehicle.
> Maybe even a few commercial (undercarriage rinse) car washes
> from time to time…
>
> Has there been any studies done?
> Will it matter if the garage floor is epoxy coated or natural
> concrete?
> Insulated and unheated garage and other combos...
>
> TP


There is no one simple answer.

Below the freezing point no rusting will occur, so outside may well
reduce the rust. Driving a car into a garage means the warm car will warm
the garage and stay warm longer allowing more damage.

Outside being cold does not bother the car, but it can slow rust.

In real life there is not that much of a difference.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Reason for rusting includes humidity trapped in places where
rust then occurs. In he garage, those spaces would dry - rust
process halted. Even better is to rinse salt out of those
spaces with water - not the salt recycled water found in car
washed. What does a car wash do? Wash that salt into places
you don't want it. But more important is to get those 'deep
inside' places dry.

TP wrote:
> Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered
> roads.
> True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car
> rust quicker if garaged with the salt slush and moisture on it
> (dripping on the floor)? Or is it better to keep the car outside
> the garage in the natural frozen winter elements?
> Of course the driver does routine maintenance on the vehicle.
> Maybe even a few commercial (undercarriage rinse) car washes
> from time to time…
>
> Has there been any studies done?
> Will it matter if the garage floor is epoxy coated or natural
> concrete?
> Insulated and unheated garage and other combos...
>
> TP
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
"Even better is to rinse salt out of those
spaces with water - not the salt recycled water found in car
washed. What does a car wash do? Wash that salt into places
you don't want it. "

Now this is an interesting point of discussion. I've wondered about
this. Does a decent car wash have anything in it's water recycling
system to remove salt from the water? Do they at least use clean water
for the rinse? If not, I wonder how high the salt concentration would
get and how long after the last application of road salt it would be
before the car wash had eliminated most of it from the water in use?
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Its funny that no one here has really hit the nail on the head on this one
yet.

Increasing the number of freeze-thaw cycles over a car's life along with the
presence of moisture (and compounded by corrosion- inducing ions found in
road salt) will certainly accelerate the pace of rusting. The moisture
gets into seams and beneath undercoating and dirt and paint (even in
microscopic size locations) and then freezes (which expands, causing minute
but detrimental movements in the metal and paint bonding) and then thaws and
allows the moisture-salt solution into even more new new places to repeat
the process is what does the damage over time.

And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that
corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can do
more harm than good. Worse yet, some car washes use water that has been
recycled several times and has a very concentrated salt solution from
everybody elses car before you use it - shooting this stuff all under your
car a few times every winter is really asking for it. Sounds funny, but if
you suspect recycled water after the carwash owner denies it, taste it for
saltiness (have a bottle of good water handy to rinse afterwards in any
case!)





<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Even better is to rinse salt out of those
> spaces with water - not the salt recycled water found in car
> washed. What does a car wash do? Wash that salt into places
> you don't want it. "
>
> Now this is an interesting point of discussion. I've wondered about
> this. Does a decent car wash have anything in it's water recycling
> system to remove salt from the water? Do they at least use clean water
> for the rinse? If not, I wonder how high the salt concentration would
> get and how long after the last application of road salt it would be
> before the car wash had eliminated most of it from the water in use?
>
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Tom Levigne wrote:
>
> And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that
> corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can do
> more harm than good. Worse yet, some car washes use water that has been
> recycled several times and has a very concentrated salt solution from
> everybody elses car before you use it - shooting this stuff all under your
> car a few times every winter is really asking for it. Sounds funny, but
> if you suspect recycled water after the carwash owner denies it, taste it
> for saltiness (have a bottle of good water handy to rinse afterwards in
> any case!)


I think that it would be a bit safer and easier to just use an ohm meter.
Recycled water with a high ion concentration should have considerably lower
resistance. It might also save you from consuming a mouthful of
hydrocarbons, antifreeze, and who knows what.

Eric
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Even better is to rinse salt out of those
> spaces with water - not the salt recycled water found in car
> washed. What does a car wash do? Wash that salt into places
> you don't want it. "
>
> Now this is an interesting point of discussion. I've wondered about
> this. Does a decent car wash have anything in it's water recycling
> system to remove salt from the water? Do they at least use clean water
> for the rinse?


Most use clean water for everything.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
"Most use clean water for everything. "

Is this true? I'm pretty sure the local one uses recycled water. And
unless water was free or really cheap, I would think most would recycle
at least the wash water?
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Tom Levigne wrote:
> Its funny that no one here has really hit the nail on the head on
> this one yet.


I think the real "nail" here is how old of a car are we talking about? I
haven't seen rust on any car that was less than 10 years old for a long time.
Who actually worries about rust any more other than those that have "vintage"
vehicles?

Keeping cars looking newer longer these days is almost entirely a matter of
avoiding dings and dents and keeping the paint from fading/oxidizing. Rust is
simply not the issue any more. About the only time a newer car is going to rust
is after it has been damaged in a manner that exposes bare metal.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 02:59:50 GMT, "Tom Levigne" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that
>corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can do
>more harm than good.


I've heard this before, but think it's over-rated. The water is
hitting flat pieces of sheetmetal and bouncing off. Some gets into
panel gaps. I don't see any real "forcing" of water into strange
places any different from where rain-water would drip. Plus, those
"hidden" places aren't what's going to rust first. What's going to
rust first are areas where the paint has been damaged by rocks and
sand.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Rick Brandt wrote:

> I think the real "nail" here is how old of a car are we talking about? I
> haven't seen rust on any car that was less than 10 years old for a long time.
> Who actually worries about rust any more other than those that have "vintage"
> vehicles?


I've seen some late 90s Chevy Cavaliers and Malibus with moderate rust
along the edges of the doors and trunk lid.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Most use clean water for everything. "
>
> Is this true? I'm pretty sure the local one uses recycled water. And
> unless water was free or really cheap, I would think most would recycle
> at least the wash water?


I work for an environmental company, and have done clean up at a few local
washes cleaning out the traps.

All fresh.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
"Steve Bigelow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > "Most use clean water for everything. "
> >
> > Is this true? I'm pretty sure the local one uses recycled water. And
> > unless water was free or really cheap, I would think most would recycle
> > at least the wash water?

>
> I work for an environmental company, and have done clean up at a few local
> washes cleaning out the traps.
>
> All fresh.
>


i agree, i've been there as well (in the south)

always been municipal water into a holding tank of some sort, that fed the
pumps, some times with water softners to help soap and wax treatments do
their jobs easier and of course prevent spotting etc.. the water drained to
sewer, all the crud stuck in the PIT, when the PIT was full the crud stayed
and the bays just flooded

definately would not want recylced water shooting on my car.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
"dizzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 02:59:50 GMT, "Tom Levigne" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that
> >corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can

do
> >more harm than good.

>
> I've heard this before, but think it's over-rated. The water is
> hitting flat pieces of sheetmetal and bouncing off. Some gets into
> panel gaps. I don't see any real "forcing" of water into strange
> places any different from where rain-water would drip. Plus, those
> "hidden" places aren't what's going to rust first. What's going to
> rust first are areas where the paint has been damaged by rocks and
> sand.
>

That hasn't been my experience, across 30-some rusty beaters. First to go is
the wrap-around weld on the door and hatch edges (especially on fords),
followed closely by the wheel arches where salt-laden crud and sand gets
jammed against the inside of the steel, after sneaking past the fender
liner. Certain AMCs and Chryslers from a few years ago had a big problem
with the front fenders- there was an actual ledge in there where salt-laden
sand would be packed against the inside of the top of the fender, and stay
there till you cleaned it out by hand. With due respect to Japanese cars,
which I own one of and basically love, I don't see many older ones around
here that aren't totally bananna-spotted with rust. Guess they don't salt
back home in Japan, so the engineers didn't spec coated steel or whatever.
Now that many/most are made here in NA, maybe that has changed.

I'v had some luck, in years I wasn't too lazy, with saturating the door
edges and under the hood with cheap spray wax mixed with hot water. Sorta
like the shipping wax the manufacturers used to use. Gotta do this in the
fall before the weather turns, however, and it is pretty easy to forget in
the rush of real life.

But having said all that- I still get the cars bottom-washed whenever there
is a thaw, if it lasts long enough for the lines to die down. And now that I
have a garage (non-heated, but house leakage probably keeps it barely below
freezing at worst), not scraping the glass in the mornings is worth the
increased rust of the temp cycling to me. Neither of my current heaps is
anywhere near collectible, and I drive the rusty one when the roads are
white. I doubt it makes a significant difference- if sun comes out on a
snowy day, greenhouse effect gets my car hot enough to melt off all the snow
anyway. Very annoying to come out at 1700, and the doors are frozen from
refrozen meltoff. (Also been too lazy to silicone the weatherstrip the last
few years...)


aem sends...
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
"Rick Brandt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Tom Levigne wrote:
> > Its funny that no one here has really hit the nail on the head on
> > this one yet.

>
> I think the real "nail" here is how old of a car are we talking about? I
> haven't seen rust on any car that was less than 10 years old for a long

time.
> Who actually worries about rust any more other than those that have

"vintage"
> vehicles?
>
> Keeping cars looking newer longer these days is almost entirely a matter

of
> avoiding dings and dents and keeping the paint from fading/oxidizing.

Rust is
> simply not the issue any more. About the only time a newer car is going

to rust
> is after it has been damaged in a manner that exposes bare metal.
>

Chuckle. Which side of salt line do YOU live on? Yes, they are a lot better
than they used to be, but I still see a lot of speckles on 3-5 year old
rides around here. See my other post for details.

And no, I don't lose sleep over it- rust never sleeps, and is just a cost of
doing business here in the frozen north. One of many reasons I don't buy
new, so the relative cost of the rust to me is much lower. About once a
year, I give the brown spots a quick'n'dirty with the wire wheel and spray
can, and at most a little Bondo on the wheel arches. It gets bad enough to
make the car unsafe, I just replace the car.

aem sends...
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top