[JohnGD]

John, as to the above quote, I haven't loosened the tensioner 1/2 when I tension it. I just tensioned it with the tensioner tightened down. 1/2 turn looser from what? Full torque down?

Well, I think we may have found the problem. When a manual tensioner is tightened down it acts like like an idler pulley (the other pulley). The spring no longer has any function.

When the tensioner bolt is loosened 1/2 turn from fully tightened down, you'll see that the tensioner can remove freely in its slot. This is how the spring can apply it's tension to the belt.

The problem is when you rotate the crank 2 times with the bolt 1/2-turn loose, the belt has the tendency to jump teeth. But it can be done if you rotate slowly. That's a reason I prefer not to work on these cheap designs.

I don't have a torque wrench. I tightened the pulleys with my ratchet wrench. Should I get a torque wrench that clicks? Being a woman, I am not that strong, but the bolts seem pretty tight. My neighbor has volunteered to tighten anything down for me that i can't get tight enough. If they aren't torqued down could that cause a slip of the belt. The bolt seems tight on the tensioner when I go to remove the belt and have to loosen it and push it down.

Is that a standard 3/8" drive ratchet about 8" long? As mentioned above the problem may be the tensioning with the bolt tightened down. However, I'd still borrow a free loaner 3/8"-drive 80 lb/ft Autozone torque wrench to tightened down the bolt if possible.

The cam does take an effort to turn, and then it will suddenly lurch forward. I will do what you suggested and take the spark plugs out and make sure the cam turns smoothly.

I wouldn't worry about this step at present time. I think the problem may be the tensioning step.

The timing belt seems fine. No damage. How do I know if I have the right belt? Napa sold me a Napa belt made by Gates. The model number is 250199. It is slightly shorter than the Mitsiboshi belt.

That's the right belt. 250199 is NAPA's numbering system, it is T199. Redo the tensioning step. Use the Gates belt. IME Gates belts hold up quite well over time.

I will double check the routing, but it really only goes on one way. I have a picture of how it is supposed to look.

We are just turning the box upside down and making sure no stones are unturned.

 

[fenixus]

before you go any further with tension troubleshooting. get a new tensioner spring from the dealer (online or local, up to you, it's just a few bucks).

 

[KarensCamry]

John:

I have the standard 3/8 ratchet and a 1/2 drive ratchet with a longer handle. And I have a breaker bar with a 1/2 drive. I will borrow a torque wrench per your instructions.

I will give it a try and let you know what happens.

Thanks a million!

Karen
:Bruce:

 

[fenixus]

replace the spring, they tend to get longer with age.
OEM torque for the tensioner bolt is 32ft-lbs, apply that, then loosen by 1/2 turn to tension the belt properly (gen4 calls for tightening at 45deg Before TDC). then lock it up with oem specs, you should be good after that.

 

[JohnGD]

The Gen 3 with green spring is tensioned at 45 BTDC. Gen 4 with the 1.65" spring (measured inside of hooks) is also at 45 BTDC. And yes given all the work done so far use a new tensioner spring from the dealer. Let us know what length/color spring they give you (I would think all are updated to the 1.65" silver one? Dunno).

The only thing I'm not sure about is if OP's Gen 3 lower timing cover has the 45 BTDC mark. But there is nothing a protractor can't solve.

The 1/2" tools or even the 3/8" standard ratchet should allow OP to sufficiently torque down the bolts, but as mentioned, a free loaner torque wrench from Autozone should be fine if it's not abused.

1/2"-drive 150 lb/ft on sale $14.99:
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-half-inch-drive-click-stop-torque-wrench-239.html

3/8"-drive 80 lb/ft on sale at $17.99 (!!):
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-8-eighth-inch-drive-click-stop-torque-wrench-807.html

 

[71Corolla]

I completely fail to see what difference it makes where the crank is when you tighten the tensioner, it doesn't matter at all, the belt has no idea where the cam and the crank is. This job should be simple, once you have the timing marks lined up, allow the spring to pull the tensioner pulley, then tighten down the bolt.

Rotate the engine clockwise a few times, then loosen the bolt so the spring will take up any remaining slack, then re-tighten the bolt. That should be all you need to do. Never rotate the engine with the tensioner bolt loose, that is a sure way for the belt to slip, rotating the engine causes pressure on the tensioner pulley, if it is loose it will move it down and you'll have to start all over again.

You'll know if you have the belt on correctly, there will be little to no slack from the camshaft gear and downward to your right. If there is, the belt is on wrong.

edit - to make the job even easier, I pull up on the tensioner myself with a hook which causes force above what the spring provides. It's not much more, but enough to ensure the belt is tight. BTW, I can see why you might want to rotate the engine at a certain angle so the valve springs don't cause a rotating force, but in practice I've never had a problem with this.

 

[bolink654]

I completely fail to see what difference it makes where the crank is when you tighten the tensioner, it doesn't matter at all, the belt has no idea where the cam and the crank is. This job should be simple, once you have the timing marks lined up, allow the spring to pull the tensioner pulley, then tighten down the bolt.

Rotate the engine clockwise a few times, then loosen the bolt so the spring will take up any remaining slack, then re-tighten the bolt. That should be all you need to do. Never rotate the engine with the tensioner bolt loose, that is a sure way for the belt to slip, rotating the engine causes pressure on the tensioner pulley, if it is loose it will move it down and you'll have to start all over again.

You'll know if you have the belt on correctly, there will be little to no slack from the camshaft gear and downward to your right. If there is, the belt is on wrong.

edit - to make the job even easier, I pull up on the tensioner myself with a hook which causes force above what the spring provides. It's not much more, but enough to ensure the belt is tight. BTW, I can see why you might want to rotate the engine at a certain angle so the valve springs don't cause a rotating force, but in practice I've never had a problem with this.

That's how I did mine too. Bout 40k later with no trouble.

But yeah why cant we have a better tensioner? I did a timing belt on a 04 Hyundia Santa Fe. It had what looked like a minature shock absorber, with a hole in the tip and a hole in the housing. FSM tells you to put that dude in a vice, crank til the holes line up, put a pin of some type in there to hold it. Then ya put yer belt on, stick that hydraulic tensioner back in its place, check everything, pull the pin and bobs your uncle. Looks like someone could design up a similar setup for these engines. I'd buy one.

 

[WaxonWaxStillOn]

I completely fail to see what difference it makes where the crank is when you tighten the tensioner, it doesn't matter at all, the belt has no idea where the cam and the crank is. This job should be simple, once you have the timing marks lined up, allow the spring to pull the tensioner pulley, then tighten down the bolt.

Rotate the engine clockwise a few times, then loosen the bolt so the spring will take up any remaining slack, then re-tighten the bolt. That should be all you need to do. Never rotate the engine with the tensioner bolt loose, that is a sure way for the belt to slip, rotating the engine causes pressure on the tensioner pulley, if it is loose it will move it down and you'll have to start all over again.

You'll know if you have the belt on correctly, there will be little to no slack from the camshaft gear and downward to your right. If there is, the belt is on wrong.

edit - to make the job even easier, I pull up on the tensioner myself with a hook which causes force above what the spring provides. It's not much more, but enough to ensure the belt is tight. BTW, I can see why you might want to rotate the engine at a certain angle so the valve springs don't cause a rotating force, but in practice I've never had a problem with this.

That was my approach as well, but I guess I can see the logic since depending on where the crank is, the greatest tension in the belt can be either after the crank and before the cam, or after the cam and before the crank...? I would assume it's best to tighten the tensioner at a point that the tension is equalized as much as possible between both. I tried for this, but not based on crank position.

I was just doing seals, I didn't know if the spring was new, so I pushed the tensioner pulley by hand to make sure it was creating enough tension on the belt. I'm sure a hook would have been more effective.

Maybe someone can offer a rule of thumb for what the proper belt tension should be or look like...how far you can press the belt inward with your thumb between pulleys when it's tight...a 1/4" at the most? I just used instincts on this to make sure I was comfortable with the position of the tensioner pulley before tightening it. Too tight can cause faster wear, too loose can slip.

 

[71Corolla]

I've done the t-belt on a gen2, gen3, and gen4 Camry and used the same procedure each time. Line up the timing marks, turn the cam gear slightly clockwise, install the belt, tighten the tensioner bolt. Rotate the engine several times, check belt tension, loosen the tensioner bolt and apply pressure if I feel the belt is not tight enough.

I've always used OE spec parts so maybe some aftermarket kits cause problems I don't know. I have read about some aftermarket belts that were a slightly different length. About Toyota using a hydraulic tensioner on the 4 cylinder engines, I don't see it as necessary. Would it have been nice? Sure, but when properly installed, a Toyota timing belt on these engines will last a long time, over 100k miles is not uncommon.

 

[Perkins]

^^^ :thumbsup: THIS

 

[KarensCamry]

Hi guys: I ordered a new tensioner spring which will be here in a couple of days, so I will wait to tension the belt until I have it. I will report on the results as soon as I tension the belt.

Thanks so much for everything. I couldn't do this without you!

Karen

:Bruce:

 

[KarensCamry]

Hi guys! I have significant progress to report. I put the timing belt on, got it tight and tensioned it with the new tensioner spring. I torqued down the pulley nuts to 31 pounds. It started right up, and I ran it for about 10 minutes until I shut it down. It idled a little rough and hestitated when I put the gas on -- but when I shut it down, the timing marks were perfect. I have the front end jacked up on the front passengers side and ran the engine that way.

Earlier, I removed the distributor out of a concern that the cam shaft had seized. I marked its exact position with a magic marker before I took it out and I put it back to those marks exactly. Nonetheless, could my timing be off and could that accoint for the rough idle and hesitation?

Thanks a million!!

Hugs and kisses!

Karen

:Bruce:

 

[WaxonWaxStillOn]

Hi guys! I have significant progress to report. I put the timing belt on, got it tight and tensioned it with the new tensioner spring. I torqued down the pulley nuts to 31 pounds. It started right up, and I ran it for about 10 minutes until I shut it down. It idled a little rough and hestitated when I put the gas on -- but when I shut it down, the timing marks were perfect. I have the front end jacked up on the front passengers side and ran the engine that way.

Earlier, I removed the distributor out of a concern that the cam shaft had seized. I marked its exact position with a magic marker before I took it out and I put it back to those marks exactly. Nonetheless, could my timing be off and could that accoint for the rough idle and hesitation?

Thanks a million!!

Hugs and kisses!

Karen

:Bruce:

Excellent to hear progress, that's great.

I've read lately a few people have inadvertently left off a vacuum hose and solved a similar rough idle issue. Also make sure the spark plug wires are attached properly and plugged in tight etc. Make sure the spark plugs are screwed in all the way, in case you loosened any to crank the engine or keeping it from starting earlier, etc. Make sure any disconnected wires are reconnected.

Overall, just try and make sure everything is plugged back in and restored to previous state. I know that when I've been involved in a project and it drags on, I tend to forget some little things that I did before or along the way.

If you removed the distributor, you still will want to use a timing gun to time the engine. Sounds like you were cautious marking it well and replacing it the same, but it's not a perfect science and tiny adjustments can account for a few degrees. It's not automatically a solution to the rough idle, but something that needs to be done (as a 'rule of thumb') now that you've got it running.

 

[KarensCamry]

Hi guys:

I think I do have a vacuum leak on the pc valve hose. So I am going to get two new clamps.

I didn't realize the crank shaft has to turn twice for every turn of the cam shaft. I thoght the belt had slipped when the marks didn't line up, but then I rotate dthe crank shaft again and the marks lined up!! I am such a dummy!!!

Thanks!

Karen

:Bruce:

 

[WaxonWaxStillOn]

Hi guys:

I think I do have a vacuum leak on the pc valve hose. So I am going to get two new clamps.

I ran the engine again today, and the timing belt slipped. I am at a loss to explain it. Before I started the engine again today, it was pretty tight. On the belt run between the water pump and cam -- I pressed the belt down with my thumb and moved the belt about a quarter of an inch. Does that sound like too much slack?

I put it on again, but this time, I moved the cam one notch toward the front of the engine. When I got the belt on, I then turned the cam to the left to TDC and then took the remaining slack out with the tensioner pulley. It is even tighter now. I will let you know what happens.

Thanks!

Karen

:Bruce:

Wow, slipped again. If it were me, albeit with an 'asterisk' for being a camry newbie, I'd inspect the belt closer if you haven't already. Really make sure it hasn't been damaged. I don't know of teeth can break away on one side yet still be attached, but that's what I'd look for. I'm assuming all oil and grime has already been cleaned off of everything really well too...that's pretty much a first step.

The crankshaft key/keyway was mentioned earlier and am assuming they were checked and aren't an issue where the pulley could slip if the key/keyway was damaged or fell out.

So at this point, if this were happening to me that is, I would make every effort to make the belt 'too tight', since nothing I'm doing is making it tight enough. I don't know if that is sound advice, but that's what I'd do.

Turn the engine over a few times, tighten/torque the tensioner, turn the engine over a few more times, loosen tensioner, then retighten/retorque. Maybe even doing that again to make sure ALL play is out of the belt. I'd even push (or use a hook as someone mentioned earlier) to make sure that tensioner is pressured up against the belt before torquing. (and of course recheck timing marks after said and done, to double check you're still line up correctly before starting engine.)

I wouldn't make it stupid-tight, but at this point I've got to prove to myself that I can get it tight enough. While 1/4" sounds familiar to what mine was like, it's obviously not enough for yours. Once success is found, you can recheck the belt and at any time loosen the tensioner and give the belt just a little more play.

Anyone know if these pulleys can crack or wear, causing problems keeping the belt in place? I can't imagine that being very 'typical', but I think we're unfortunately beyond 'typical' already.

 

[KarensCamry]

Hi:

I have the engine running. The timing belt seems fine. I notice a small sputter in the idle, and after about 15 minutes, the engine died, after the engine was warm. But the timing marks are perfect.

I replaced the clamps on the pcv-valve hose. When I put the valve cover back on, I used the old gasket. Could an old gasket account for a loss of vacuum? I checked the plug wires, which are new, and they seem fine -- normal resistance.

Could it be the timing that is causing the sputtering? My engine never sputtered. Do I need a timing gun that has the tach meter on it, or can I just use a standard gun and set the timing to the curb idle?

I also have a small oil leak, but it doesn't seem to be coming from the back side of the valve cover. It looks like may the oil pump gasket is leaking? I may just try to tighten it down.

Thanks a million for everyone who has helped me. I could not have done this without you!!!

Karen

:Bruce:

 

[WaxonWaxStillOn]

Good to hear the timing belt is staying on. Tightening the pump probably won't help your oil leak from this area, since the leak is usually from the o-ring aging and becoming brittle, and a tiny bit more pressure probably isn't going to stop a leak from here (it had no effect on mine.)

There is also the oil pump seal, camshaft seal, and crankshaft seal that are potential leak factors in that area, all relatively inexpensive replacements.

Timing being off can cause sputtering depending on which direction it's off and how much...one way tends to speed up the idle, the other way tends to slow it down. I've never used a tach with a timing gun and have just made sure the car is warmed up first and the rpm's have come down to the standard idle range. Admittedly it's not as scientific an approach as using a tach.

I'd be curious if the car runs fine maintaining it at higher rpms, or if it eventually sputters there too. Imo the timing would be a first thing to make sure is set properly since it's an easy way to eliminate a potential factor.

I don't see a timing light in Autozone's loan-a-tools section, but if you don't have one, a neighbor or friend might. Other than that I'm out of additional thoughts with little experience with an idle issues with this car, but I'm sure some veterans will offer some good suggestions.