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That would be a subjective matter. I prefer fog lights myself.
You would but "not the average buyer". There's been plenty of "where and when is Android Auto and Apple Car Play" threads than there has fog light threads.
 

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2008 Camry SE V6
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Let's say that it costs Toyota $25 to put fog lights on a car.... just for the sake of argument... and let's imagine that 80% of them were SE or higher models with fog lights...

2018 Camry sales: 343,439 x 80%= 274,751 x $25 = $6.8 million.
2019 Camry sales: 336,978 x 80%= 269,582 x $25 = $6.7 million.
2020 Camry sales: 294,378 x 80%= 235,502 x $25 = $5.9 million.

Total savings by not having fog lights in 2018-2020= $20.4 million.

Let's also be really honest about something. Consumers in the midsize sedan market often are driven by price... or at least price is high up in terms of importance. Toyota, like most car makers, have gone to great lengths to cut costs so that they can keep the Camry affordable. Keep in mind that a Camry LE in 2001 had a base price of $20,415. With inflation, that would be $31,337. Toyota has been able to cut costs to the point where they can offer the 2021 Camry LE for a base price of $26,928... or effectively $4,400 less than what a 2001 would cost today with inflation included. Now consider that in order to stay competitive, Toyota has had to add a lot more equipment to the Camry... a 2021 Camry has a lot more safety and convenience features compared to a 2001 model. You can't have everything... so Toyota has, just like all other car makers, figured out ways to cut costs and eliminate features that they are betting that most owners don't care about... including fog lights.
I can understand the argument made about the midsize sedan market and what drives it -- but I simply can't understand why they were able to INCLUDE fogs as standard equipment on previous generation SEs (like the one I own) without any worries about cost savings and now all of a sudden it must be left off.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
 

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I can understand the argument made about the midsize sedan market and what drives it -- but I simply can't understand why they were able to INCLUDE fogs as standard equipment on previous generation SEs (like the one I own) without any worries about cost savings and now all of a sudden it must be left off.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Fog lights were dropped on the SE model starting with the 2015 7th Generation refresh. You don't get fog lights anymore, but you do get a whole bunch of additional standard safety equipment. Radar cruise, Land departure/lane keep assist, auto high beams, road sign assist, automatic emergency braking were all added as standard features. In addition, Apple Carplay, Android Auto, 10 airbags, and a few other features that have now been added to all Camrys.

As I said, as customers demand more and more stuff, Toyota and other car makers must figure out how to cut costs in order to keep overall costs down. In addition, they must figure out ways to cut weight to deal with the ever increasing pressure to make the car more efficient to meet EPA regulations/mileage goals.
 

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Fog lights were dropped on the SE model starting with the 2015 7th Generation refresh. You don't get fog lights anymore, but you do get a whole bunch of additional standard safety equipment. Radar cruise, Land departure/lane keep assist, auto high beams, road sign assist, automatic emergency braking were all added as standard features. In addition, Apple Carplay, Android Auto, 10 airbags, and a few other features that have now been added to all Camrys.

As I said, as customers demand more and more stuff, Toyota and other car makers must figure out how to cut costs in order to keep overall costs down. In addition, they must figure out ways to cut weight to deal with the ever increasing pressure to make the car more efficient to meet EPA regulations/mileage goals.
Here's a good question. Are we better off having been "forced" to develop more safe and fuel efficient vehicles or should we have had the freedom to do what we want (which we already do)?
 

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Camry Freak
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Here's a good question. Are we better off having been "forced" to develop more safe and fuel efficient vehicles or should we have had the freedom to do what we want (which we already do)?
While I think that the feds definitely have played their role in forcing automakers to adopt and install safety equipment and achieve better mileage, I think we've reached a point where most manufacturers are innovating and installing this stuff as a way to stay competitive.

No government rule requires that car makers, for example, install ten airbags in their cars. I believe that the law only requires a driver and front passenger airbag. Side airbags, curtain airbags, knee airbags... they are all installed by car makers as a way to stay competitive and so that they can advertise those features. Same thing with radar cruise control, automatic braking, lane keep assist, and a bunch of other stuff. None of that stuff is required by law- but car makers have made those features standard on all but the cheapest of ecoboxes these days.

The only real push by the feds is efficiency and meeting mpg goals... which car makers have done by making their engines more efficient, eliminating weight, and adding things like auto start/stop. Thankfully, most car makers offer a way to turn that last feature off.

Government regulations for cars, other than for fuel economy. (and maybe paint), is pretty lackluster in this country. Crash performance, for example, involves a pretty low standard of performance. It's the industry and market that have pushed car makers to improve crash performance- not the feds. The IIHS, for example, has worked very hard to pressure car makers to improve crash performance in the past twenty years. As soon as the majority of cars start getting top marks in a test, they add another test that further pressures car makers to continue improving. Car makers respond to that pressure too- just look at how quick Toyota was able to redesign the front crash structure of the 2014 Camry after getting a bad score in the IIHS's new small overlap front crash test. That's why some 2014 Camrys are known as "2014.5" Camrys. Models produced starting in December of 2013 featured the redesigned front crash structure that did much better in the test.
 
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While I think that the feds definitely have played their role in forcing automakers to adopt and install safety equipment and achieve better mileage, I think we've reached a point where most manufacturers are innovating and installing this stuff as a way to stay competitive.

No government rule requires that car makers, for example, install ten airbags in their cars. I believe that the law only requires a driver and front passenger airbag. Side airbags, curtain airbags, knee airbags... they are all installed by car makers as a way to stay competitive and so that they can advertise those features. Same thing with radar cruise control, automatic braking, lane keep assist, and a bunch of other stuff. None of that stuff is required by law- but car makers have made those features standard on all but the cheapest of ecoboxes these days.

The only real push by the feds is efficiency and meeting mpg goals... which car makers have done by making their engines more efficient, eliminating weight, and adding things like auto start/stop. Thankfully, most car makers offer a way to turn that last feature off.

Government regulations for cars, other than for fuel economy. (and maybe paint), is pretty lackluster in this country. Crash performance, for example, involves a pretty low standard of performance. It's the industry and market that have pushed car makers to improve crash performance- not the feds. The IIHS, for example, has worked very hard to pressure car makers to improve crash performance in the past twenty years. As soon as the majority of cars start getting top marks in a test, they add another test that further pressures car makers to continue improving. Car makers respond to that pressure too- just look at how quick Toyota was able to redesign the front crash structure of the 2014 Camry after getting a bad score in the IIHS's new small overlap front crash test. That's why some 2014 Camrys are known as "2014.5" Camrys. Models produced starting in December of 2013 featured the redesigned front crash structure that did much better in the test.
It's just one of those things where people say "blame the government for "bad cars"" yet at the same time we seemingly have all these creature comforts because the government wanted to do some regulation. It's interesting to think of what we could be driving now had there been no "raise mpg" and other safety regulations. At a minimum, Japanese Import's probably would not have done as well and bigger American V8's may still dominate.
 

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...I never really understood why some people who hate on people who drive with fog lights on when the weather isn't poor. They aren't hurting anyone as long as they aimed properly...
as long as they are aimed properly... There seems to be no shortage of cars out there throwing too much light off axis into oncoming drivers eyes. How many people actually check to see that their lights are aimed properly? I normally look at the use of fog lights as unnecessary. But if they're bright and poorly aimed, I see it as reckless.
 
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as long as they are aimed properly... There seems to be no shortage of cars out there throwing too much light off axis into oncoming drivers eyes. How many people actually check to see that their lights are aimed properly? I normally look at the use of fog lights as unnecessary. But if they're bright and poorly aimed, I see it as reckless.
Reminds me of that one time an oncoming vehicle had his lightbar turned on while on the highway at night. Nearly blinded me as he went by…pretty sure that is illegal to use on public roads for that reason.
 

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Here's a good question. Are we better off having been "forced" to develop more safe and fuel efficient vehicles or should we have had the freedom to do what we want (which we already do)?
I am pretty sure you know the answer to this. In no particular order: Safety, Emission Regulations and Fuel Economy is priority. Anything else is consider "Extra" or unnecessary.
 

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Reminds me of that one time an oncoming vehicle had his lightbar turned on while on the highway at night. Nearly blinded me as he went by…pretty sure that is illegal to use on public roads for that reason.
Back in the day you had to keep off road lights covered while on road! Those LED bars suck!
 

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Fog lights were dropped on the SE model starting with the 2015 7th Generation refresh. You don't get fog lights anymore, but you do get a whole bunch of additional standard safety equipment. Radar cruise, Land departure/lane keep assist, auto high beams, road sign assist, automatic emergency braking were all added as standard features. In addition, Apple Carplay, Android Auto, 10 airbags, and a few other features that have now been added to all Camrys.

As I said, as customers demand more and more stuff, Toyota and other car makers must figure out how to cut costs in order to keep overall costs down. In addition, they must figure out ways to cut weight to deal with the ever increasing pressure to make the car more efficient to meet EPA regulations/mileage goals.
Ahhhhh yes...one of the most boring, uninspired variants of this car to ever emerge...perhaps next to the previous model with its ugly lobster claw-esque booty lights...

341923


It was also the time they dropped any kind of lower panel body work on SE models (while introducing the XSE without any real visual cues worth speaking about that would differentiate it from other models); but weren't those fogs in the "teardrops" off to the sides of the headlights? Are you saying those were dropped during a refresh?
 

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No fogs in the US. Overseas... different story.

I see fogs on the 2021 updated fascia. I hope I can get some in the states soon. Are there any websites on which these would be available for purchase with shipping to the states?
 

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Here's a good question. Are we better off having been "forced" to develop more safe and fuel efficient vehicles or should we have had the freedom to do what we want (which we already do)?
I think the industry definitely requires coaxing to improve safety and fuel economy, but the rules haven't always been implemented properly. For example, the first generation air bags were designed to protect a rather large UNBELTED male. This resulted in unnecessary injuries to many smaller-sized people from overly forceful airbags (and I'm not totally convinced that this problem has been completely addressed). Also, the current efficiency rules are resulting in fewer non-turbo options and more reliability issues.

As far as having what we want, I'd say no, we're not even close. I want a manual transmission, and I want to be able to select the individual features I want in my car (for example fog lights and a CD player).
 

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Ahhhhh yes...one of the most boring, uninspired variants of this car to ever emerge...perhaps next to the previous model with its ugly lobster claw-esque booty lights...

View attachment 341923

It was also the time they dropped any kind of lower panel body work on SE models (while introducing the XSE without any real visual cues worth speaking about that would differentiate it from other models); but weren't those fogs in the "teardrops" off to the sides of the headlights? Are you saying those were dropped during a refresh?
2015, 2016, and 2017 Camrys in the XLE and XSE trim had LEDs in the lower bumper-mounted lights in addition to the turn signals that are down there. The LEDs acted as DRL on those models (lower trim levels used the high beams at a lower intensity as their DRL). At night, the LEDs stay on. I'm not sure if they are considered fog lights or not. Looking at the 2016 manual, I didn't see a fog light on/off switch described for any model.
 
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