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E-15 Fuel Concerns

11K views 12 replies 9 participants last post by  William Jonson 
#1 ·
Has Toyota issued any more statements, even rumors about the effect of E-15 fuel on their vehicles?

I'm concerned for my 2011 HL Limited V6 now that the White House is actively discussing an E-15 mandate by Executive Order.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Moved this into the general discussion forum as it's not an issue specific to the highlander.

As far as concerns, I don't care one way or another so long as they keep implementing it like they are now. Then you never have to use it if you don't want to. If it becomes a real problem and is forced on us (blending pumps disappear), then it will be time to boycot corn farmers until they switch crops. :)

Aside from the risk to the motor, I don't want to pay more at the pump for it like we do now for E10. And the corn industry's lies about "we're decreasing dependence on foreign oil" gets old when adding ethanol doesn't actually decrease it at all. Do the math. With the decreased MPGs from E10, we're buying an extra gallon of fuel every tank full. So there's no decrease in oil used just an extra gallon paid for by the consumer. It's a 10 percent corn tax at the pump.

EDIT: And I just heard on the news this morning that milk prices in CA are going up because of a shortage of corn.:facepalm:
 
#3 ·
I don't know if this theory is true but it is an aspect of how a gas station pump works I had not thought about.

"Now the problem results in the fact that up to something like 4 gallons of fuel will be held within the final part of the hose system after a given fill-up. So, if someone got E15, there would be up to 4 gallons of pure E15 in the hose already, that has to come out before anything else can get to your tank. Obviously, if you're wanting the 93-octane premium (which is probably E10, or maybe pure gasoline), you're going to get that 4 gallons of E15 first. And if you are on a bike with a 4gal. tank you wind up with 4 gal. of E15.
Note that the same issue will kill motors in lawn mowers, when you get gas in your 2.5 gallon container for it. Or your snowmobile...your outboard...your jet ski...etc. Anything that runs on gas where you'll be getting 4 or less gallons at a time."
 
#7 ·
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/need-know-e15.aspx?ec_id=cmcta_01_comm_aut_image_headline

Good reading, and states Toyota will NOT honor warranties on cars that are used with E15.
I may be naïve, but how will a local dealer service department determine that the car has been fueled with E15? I'm sure they do not have a chemist on staff with a lab that can analyze what is in the fuel tank.

My original question was intended to find out if there is any factual evidence that E15 has damaged cars built within the past 5 years. I'm tired of the rumors and scare headlines spread by special interest groups and lobbyists.

I'm concerned that Toyota's and other manufacturers' statements of voiding warranties are only because they don't know and don't want spend the money testing, so take the easy way out by printing CYA statements on gas caps.
 
#6 ·
I worry about what E15 will do to my 95 Corolla, my lawnmower, chainsaw, weed wacker etc. My Corolla now needs a refill at 300 miles when it used to get 400 miles per tank. Tuneups do not increase mileage.
 
#8 · (Edited)
E10 and soon to come E15 don't cause immediate death to any vehicle, not even carb'd vehicles. It is a slow deterioration of fuel pumps, fuel lines, injectors, 02 sensors, and cat converters because research has proven that Ethanol does not burn at the same temp as gasoline, therefore when the spark burns the fuel all the ethanol doesn't burn and that vapor becomes carbon and that carbon builds up over time robbing your gas millage, research further shows that ethanol does not contain the same energy as gasoline, therefore it takes more ethanol to do the same work as gasoline. Research also shows that ethanol dose not stay suspended in gasoline therefore if left in a tank long enough ethanol will seperate out and pure ethanol will make its way through to the engine and can cause real damage, most folks won't have to worry about thus because they don't let gas sit in the tank long enough but there are people who do. Finally research also shows that Ethanol absorbs water out of the atmosphere around it which gasoline doesn't do which leads to another problem of rust and corossion to internal engine parts. The research is there but like anything else you can choose to ignore it. Even if you don't believe the research from outside sources because it could in fact be propaganda, you can do your own testing you will see the evidence for yourself. You will need to find a pure gas station though to compare the two types of fuel against each other over a few tankfulls to get an avg mpg rating between both fuel types. Next because you can't see inside an engine, take a look at your exhaust tips, I'll bet they are full of black carbon, a phenomenon that only happens with E10 fuel or E0 cars with misfires or timing issues, I use E0 in my cars and I don't get that black carbon build up at my exhaust tips. If it is that much carbon all the way at the tips, guess how much is in the engine and the cat converter. If you take the cat converter off and look inside you'll see more clearly the effects of ethanol not burning completely and what happens when a vapor comes into contact with the super hot element inside, it clogs it up and you'll need a new one. This would eventually happen with E0 fuel as well but not as soon. I remember when you could own a car 15 years and not have to change the cat, now they die between 5-7 years old. There is plenty more of my own research, but who am I in the big picture so I won't site any more of my own research. Do some testing of your own and see what you come up with.
 
#9 ·
Thank You Gen Xer, that is the type of empirical information I was seeking. Up to now I admit to being lax about observing what was offered at the pumps, and what control I might have with the blend. In the future I will be more observant.

Fortunately, I don't believe we in Mississippi have an immediate problem for two reasons. First, we're not a Corn Belt state, and second, we do not have a large politically liberal population. In fact some consider our political correctness to be about the same level as that of Genghis Khan...LOL

Seriously though, I do appreciate and care about the damage that we are doing to our Planet. However, programs like Gasohol are merely Band-Aids aimed at placating banner waving liberals and their media supporters. Our leaders refuse to take the unpleasant and unpopular stand that addresses the basic cause of Planet damage, and force us to accept and execute fundamental technical, cultural, and economic changes. It won't be fun when it happens, and it will become more and more painful the longer we drag our feet and the later that change occurs.
 
#10 ·
I realise this is an old thread however I would like to add my experience with E10 in France (Europe).
I have an old Toyota Picnic (year 2000) with a 1998cm 3SFE. When E10 became the norm in France 2009 I started having problems with my car. All Toyota did was replace spark plugs all the time. Due to health issues I didn't get round to doing anything else until the last year or so. I was determined to find what the problem was as I was convinced my engine was still sound. I started looking things up and testing all sorts of components. I found vacuum leaks, my MAP bracket was bent to such an extent the vacuum line was kinked so badly the MAP couldn't be recieving reliable information. My fuel filter was full of black stuff and most recently I tested my throttle position sensor was faulty. I repaired (as best I could) all these issues and got varying degrees of improvement but the major issues were not solved.
What I was getting was hesitation and surging when pulling away and lavk of power under load (accelerating hard or climbing hills) and being 'forced to back off due to knocking. Since having this car I have always put in SP95 or equivalent (since 2009 SP95E10) the other day I decided to put SP98 (which does not contain ethanol) and after a few runs to neighboring towns (about 200 miles) all the problems seemed to have been resolved. Also no more black soot on the exhaust tip and increased mpg.
I had been informed (by the state) that all toyotas produced after 1998 (my car is a 2000 model bought in July 1999) were compatible with E10 fuel. I am now in contact with Toyota France to find out when my Picnic was produced (VIN in Europe don't give this information systematically as in my case).
I was surprised that 10%ethanol could cause such a loss of performance. My recommendation would be to stay with what your car was made to run on. If that isn't possible prefer a higher octane index to a lower cheaper one with ethanol in it.

One last point: regulations in Europe are different to the US and Asia so it is worth keeping up to date with what is going on in your region (I didn't pay much attention and got caught out however looking on internet didn't give me much information about this issue just a load of official twaddle about ecology and increased wear and tear). Btw for information my car is Obd1 and I didn't get any codes during all this time (I did get sick of Toyota changing my spark plugs all the time though). ^^
 
#11 ·
#12 ·
I have done a lot on my car the last 6 months. Put some carb cleaner (by Bardhal) through this got improvements (compressons back?). I might try your method (which I had a look at) next time I change spark plugs and oil (that was done recently as well so I don't want to try that with good clean parts).

I am slowly investigating everything and keep coming back to timing. Going to check the knock sensor next (awkward thing to get to) and change the spark plug wires. Also the timing belt (plus lots of gaskets, pulleys and joints (some leaks anticipated)) but not until the days get warmer and longer.

Last thing I changed was the throttle position sensor that cured lurching on pulling away.

Coming back to fuel, here in france, we have SP95 E5 (5% ethanol based products max) and E10 (10% ethanol based products) as well as SP98 (RON values I think). The car seems to prefer SP95 E5. This is one reason why I have started suspecting the Knock sensor.
 
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