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Discussion Starter #2
OK maybe I'll ask it differently.

Has anyone tried the technology for splitting the hydrogen and oxygen bond in water (Brown's Gas) and fed it into the air stream down wind of the air filter ?
 

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Violates the laws of physics.
You can't get something for nothing.
Any added power (presuming that it works) is offset by a factor of 2x or greater in the energy draw from the electrical system required to separate the molecule.

No energy conversion is 100% efficient. Again, it is a physical impossibility. You are using electricity to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen, then feeding that into the airstream. You have a net energy loss in this conversion.
The hydrogen and oxygen then recombine, but you have no control over the timing of this event. It will happen either at the time of spark, or at some point before.
Again, there is a net energy loss in this conversion.

All of these energy losses are not free.... you pay for them in fuel driving the alternator to power the system.

This is presuming that the system actually functions and increases the engine power output.

Best case scenario... the only way you can actually save fuel... power the system from a separate, isolated battery that you charge from home.
You're still paying for the energy lost by the system, but your home AC power is cheaper than gasoline.... and again, this is assuming that the system can generate enough hydrogen to actually improve engine output. It doesn't.

Mythbusters challenged this one over 10 years ago and the results were as expected... no savings in fuel, and no usable amount of hydrogen was produced.

There is a reason that commercial hydrogen fueling stations charge the energy equivalent of about $5.60/gallon of gasoline, and hydrogen fueled vehicles cost ~$0.21/mile to operate. My Corolla costs half that to run.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Here is an example of much better mileage. a 1959 car in 1973 that achieved 376 mpg. Imagine if this level of engineering excellence was achievable in 1973 what should be available now, given the advent of computers etc..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II1_Vg8dP64&feature=player_embedded+This+copy+sold+to+<alafau%40protonmail.com>+%5BORDERID%3A8064%5D
 

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I'm not interested in a debate on this topic.
The Youtube videos are faked. There was NEVER an old car that was retrofitted to get 50-100-300mpg without the aid of an auxiliary power source. It simply can not be done. There is no conspiracy among the oil companies to shut down such technologies... if these things actually worked, the oil companies would be all over them to patent them and profit from them. Remember a few years ago when T. Boone Pickens was advertising the "Pickens Plan" for energy independence back when oil was $100/barrel? Pickens is an oil billionaire. The "Pickens Plan" was wind power. When oil went over $80/barrel, wind started to become profitable. When the price dropped, the profitability of alternatives dropped, and we stopped hearing the radio commercials. He invested billions in land in Texas upon which to build windmills. There are some farms out there near Fort Stockdale, but most of that land sits barren, waiting for oil prices to rise again.


Take a GOOD look at the guy's web site and tell me that he's not a charlatan... "Brown's Gas"... coming up with a mystical name for simple hydrogen?
Health benefits? Please... This has all of the huge red flags of being a scam. If the FDA took a look at his health claims, they'd shut him down.
If these things actually worked, the automakers would be falling all over themselves implementing the "technology".
We live in a world where Toyota is going to 0w16 oil to meet CAFE fuel standards... 1mpg improvement on every Toyota model would be huge news and worth billions to the company.

Waste your money if you want, but it's not going to do anything beneficial and will potentially damage your engine. This guy is making a boatload of cash selling his books and products to gullible people who do not understand the most basic principles of science.
 

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It's sad that so much crap has been thrown at people about fuel mileage that the real stuff is immediately trashed and rejected.

I drove my Echo down my favorite road yesterday and got 94.1 mpg over a 3 mile distance, no tricks just good old pulse and glide, with some engine off coasting, (which is done by a Prius automatically). Once we realize that it has been known for decades how to maximise fuel efficiency (even prior to WW2), then you can consider incorporating those techniques into every day driving. Overall vehicle efficiency, measured by the fuel consumed and the work produced makes it glaring obvious that a HUGE room for improvement is fairly simple. They took a 15 mpg 55 Chrysler Hemi to 55 MPG using " burn and coast".

A liter of HHO CONTAINS THE SAME ENERGY AS A SINGLE WOODEN MATCH AND THAT WON'T MOVE A CAR AT ANY DECENT SPEED.

One example is start stop tech. Been around for a very long time and with 13% of total US fuel consumption wasted idling, it's fairly easy to get rid of that atrocious waste.

I once rode with the HHO crew and listened to their schtick. My first question is, "if a small percentage of this gas will increase fuel mileage this amount just go 100% HHO and forget the liquid fuel. It's just another fraud. My 94.1 MPG today was just technique and that technique has saved me an enormous amount of money over the least decades.

Sadly those techniques require a manual transmission, almost unknown these days, but maybe there may be a way to make it automatic with regeneration efficiencies above 80% wheel to wheel.
 

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Sadly those techniques require a manual transmission, almost unknown these days, but maybe there may be a way to make it automatic with regeneration efficiencies above 80% wheel to wheel.
Hybrids do a decent job with regenerative braking.
Anything that can convert energy normally lost to heat is absolutely helpful... often hugely helpful... whether that energy is converted back to electricity to charge the traction battery through regenerative braking (hybrids get phenomenal brake life because they are only used to come to a full stop or panic situations), or whether the curve is smoothed by driving habits that retain kinetic energy by avoiding braking... and trading off potential energy for kinetic energy by avoiding braking on the downhill (and avoiding overspeed by not maintaining "the limit" all the way to the top of the hill).


The big problem in applying some hypermiling methods, such as FAS, with automatic transmissions is the transmission fluid is driven by the front pump. Dropping into neutral leaves the pump operating at an insufficient speed to properly lubricate the driveline at 60mph. FAS goes a step further by completely stopping the pump.
About the best you can do with an automatic is control your throttle and shut down for extended stops... not too practical sitting in traffic, but it's doable at many traffic signals with countdown pedestrian indications.
 

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LOL I had a shyster-ass dorm mate in college that wanted to sell "Brown's Gas" kits to locals and make money. This was one of those jackholes that fancied themself an "idea guy" after a lifetime of permissive parenting left them spoiled and unable to wrap their head around "99% perspiration, 1% inspiration."

Brown's Gas, the 2008 equivalent of "Power companies hate this guy for this one trick" etc. cb is right on the money, violates laws of physics and +1 on "not interested in a debate on the topic"

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_science

...see also, homeopathic medicine, phrenology, alchemy. I got a family member that believes in homeopathic medicine. Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
 

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There are many, many people who think homeopathy = herbalism. Which isn't a huge mistake, although 100% of homeopathy is pure BS, while herbalism is only about 99% BS.
 

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I've heard of that "person who got shut down by the oil companies" from an Engineering I work with. It could be true, it could not be true, who knows because the truth is long gone. MPG readings also typically make me more confused when some people say they've made over 60 mpg when something is rated for 30 mpg. Is it the truth? I don't know. All I can say is that I roughly remember taking a trip from Milwaukee, WI to St. Paul, MN and apparently I only used a 1/4 tank. Which I also sorta doubt I did...
 

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All I can say is that I roughly remember taking a trip from Milwaukee, WI to St. Paul, MN and apparently I only used a 1/4 tank. Which I also sorta doubt I did...
We regularly drove between Ann Arbor, Michigan and Cleveland Heights, Ohio, about 180 miles, on a $2.40 tankful of gas.

Of course, this was in 1965, with our 40-horse '64 Beetle and gas was $0.31/gallon... and it took from Ann Arbor to Toledo, 50 miles or so, to accelerate to 70 mph.
 

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I've heard of that "person who got shut down by the oil companies" from an Engineering I work with. It could be true, it could not be true, who knows because the truth is long gone.
It's like most urban legends.
Nobody seems to personally know this mysterious person... or sometimes the story itself is conflicted because "the person" was "disappeared" (if that were the case, so would anyone with any knowledge of the person).

Sometimes it's an honest misunderstanding of incomplete data. My ex's dad swore on a stack of Bibles that "a guy" who "disappeared" had hooked up the phones in his print shop in a way that he never got a long distance bill, only the office phone.
My guess is "the guy" had wired the shop phones to a neighboring unit's lines, whether intentionally or by mistake, and the "disappearance" was due to being fired by the phone company. Old Bill never did give me a straight answer on whether or not the shop phones rang at the same time as the office or whether or not he would answer them... only that he made his LD calls from the shop and never got billed.

These stories date back to the 60s, but really spread like wildfire during the gas shortages of the 70s and early 80s. People would spend hundreds on unproven gadgets and would swear that they got huge mileage increases (because they didn't want to admit that they got taken), but the story of this poor guy who got screwed over by the oil companies... or in some stories, paid by the oil companies to bury his secret, continued.
 

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I've heard from my sister's husband's brother in law that gas line magnets give a 30% improvement, give more HP, and they'll fix a car failing its emissions test into passing!

Link to eBay item:






Heck, throw a vortex booster in the intake and you'll have to empty fuel from your tank!





:hook2:


:joking:
 

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I feel like that fuel line magnet is like... a passive fuel filter that magnetically captures metal particles... except those particles can't be removed and they just accumulate until it plugs the line... That is just my theory on how something like that would work. Otherwise I guess it could... bend the line due to weight...
 

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I feel like that fuel line magnet is like... a passive fuel filter that magnetically captures metal particles... except those particles can't be removed and they just accumulate until it plugs the line... That is just my theory on how something like that would work. Otherwise I guess it could... bend the line due to weight...
Except that's not what they are advertised to do.
They are advertised to "fracture" the petroleum molecule to promote more efficient combustion.

Taking it at face value, they are claiming that the magnet is breaking down gasoline (oversimplified, C8H18) into lighter molecules, such as methanol or ethanol (CH3OH and C2H5OH).
Kinda hard to do that without a source of hydrogen, since to convert gasoline into ethanol leaves you short by a couple of hydrogen atoms and four ionized oxygen/hydrogen pairs. Ya... 4 molecules of water could provide the raw materials... but that ain't gonna happen in your fuel line :D

And though methanol and ethanol may burn more cleanly, they also do not have the energy density of gasoline, so your fuel economy would actually worsen.
 

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Except that's not what they are advertised to do.
They are advertised to "fracture" the petroleum molecule to promote more efficient combustion.

Taking it at face value, they are claiming that the magnet is breaking down gasoline (oversimplified, C8H18) into lighter molecules, such as methanol or ethanol (CH3OH and C2H5OH).
Kinda hard to do that without a source of hydrogen, since to convert gasoline into ethanol leaves you short by a couple of hydrogen atoms and four ionized oxygen/hydrogen pairs. Ya... 4 molecules of water could provide the raw materials... but that ain't gonna happen in your fuel line :D

And though methanol and ethanol may burn more cleanly, they also do not have the energy density of gasoline, so your fuel economy would actually worsen.
I'd feel like it would be more of a "filter" than what they claim... All I see is a magnet...
 

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I'd feel like it would be more of a "filter" than what they claim... All I see is a magnet...
All it is is $13 out of your bank and into the seller's ;)
A good video on Hydrogen for fuel:
That is a great video and really shows some of the challenges to both technologies.

The fact remains that until alternative fuel sources are economically viable compared to fossil fuels, the market will drive the production and use of fossil fuels.
My next vehicle will likely be a hybrid Camry... not because I'm fooling myself into believing that I will save money... I won't, even at California prices and my driving of 25k/year... but because I would really like to get another 100 or so miles per tank so I can get away with refueling only once a week.
 
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