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TN Member
Prius
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Discussion Starter #1
Alright so something similar was discussed in one of the threads down below somewhere but I figured I'd make a new thread cause I kinda curious.

So, right now if you're a used car buyer, you're probably looking for something reliable, dependable or maybe something exotic you couldn't afford when new.

That's all fine and dandy. The cars are basically unchanged for 10, 20 years except with new features like power seats and more airbags and that sort of thing.

Now the cars are coming with more high tech toys and GPS is one of them.


Now here's the thing. Most new luxury stuff don't have an "expiry date" so to speak. If I add power seats, then it'll work 10 or 20 years down the road. If it doesn't, well just find a new motor or get one from the salvage yard and you can make it work again.

But for something like GPS, you really can't do that. You can't just buy a new screen and put replace it expecting it to work. You're stuck with the "latest" screen you had when the car was new. Ditto the maps. I'm assuming eventually the manufacturer will stop producing new maps on discs for a particular generation. (For Toyota, different screens use different discs, there isn't a one-disc-fits-all-generations disc).


So if you're a used car buyer, does that mean you either use the outdated maps or just ignore it completely? Will the used car price reflect that? (i.e. it'll be cheaper cause now the navigation system is practically useless).


Right now, we're in the transition between DVD and HDD nav systems. HDD has endless possibilities. DVD's are limited to the size. So in the future when we get high definition navigation screens with super fine map details and 100s of millions of POIs and so forth that will require say 15GB or 20GB, what will happen to the DVD-based systems of today?

So for those that are opting for navigation systems and are actually gonna keep your car, are you just gonna assume that that's part of getting a factory nav?? With a portable one, you just dispose of it or sell it for cheap and buy a new one. You can't with factory nav. Will this change if say > 50% of new cars sold today have GPS (and therefore the used car market in a few years will have lots of vehicles with GPS).


What are your thoughts? Feel free to add anything to what I've said above.
 

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Radio, this is Unit 91...
1993 Camry LE AT
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I have quite a few thoughts on this.....thanks for asking! ;)

- You are correct that 20 years from now a current in dash OEM Nav system will be worthless. But it's totally worth it to me; the one getting plenty of good use out of it for now. (how much is "typical" 20 year old car worth anyway?) $1,000-$3,000.....an '88 Acura Legend is worth $4,100 tops. A 1990 Lexus LS400 is worth ~$7,000...but we'll see in 2 years what it'll be.

- DVD based systems are already being phased out for Hard-Drive based units. 10 years ago Nav systems were CD based, so the "upgrade" the DVD was welcomed. And now the upgrade to HD is welcomed too. More POI's, more detailed maps, and faster reaction to inputs is a good thing.

- I doubt resale will suffer on a 20 year old car because it had Nav vs. one w/out it. The aftermarket is crafty, and well ahead of OEMs. There are lots of options available today (in-dash DVD players namely), and there are some that haven't been invented yet for the "voids" that 20+ year old outdated Nav units leave.
 

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TN Member
Prius
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Discussion Starter #3
- True. By that time, the value is quite low. But say the screen incorporated the audio/climate controls like they are in Toyota/Lexus models (I think Honda separates them). If the screen goes, then what? There goes the car unless Toyota stocks these screens for 20 years lol

- Yeah but HDD is on higher end models only (Exception: Mitsu Outlander and G35/37). Those of us getting the run-of-the-mill car (Camry, Corolla and the like) are still stuck with DVD-based systems cause Toyota won't bring the HDD versions over (even though the Japanese Prius and Corolla have HDD options... as well as DVD.. interesting). We're just banking that DVD will stay around longer than CD did

- True but in that case, one would rather buy a non-nav version and get an aftermarket (and thus newer) unit with navigation. Is it getting harder to do it esp. with integrated radios/screen?
 

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TN Member
Prius
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Discussion Starter #4
I thought I'd bring this thread up again and see if anyone has any inputs. I'm really curious and want to know what others think about these gadgets.
 

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Radio, this is Unit 91...
1993 Camry LE AT
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848 Posts
Nice revival (no sarcasm). It's shocking only the 2 of us wrote anything.
 

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Camry Freak
Camry & Accord
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I really wanted navigation in my Camry when I bought it in 2007. However, after doing research, crunching the numbers, and actually experimenting with a Camry that had OEM navigation, I decided to go aftermarket instead. The reasons being:

(1)
The value of the navigation system goes down significantly in the short-term resale value of the car. (It was nearly $2000 new, but according to KBB trade-in values, a 2007 XLE (20,000 miles) with nav only fetches $525 more than an identical car without). While this difference between the two will shrink over time (the difference in a 2002 XLE with 60,000 miles is only $300), it is still significant.

Your point that you bring up about resale and technology advancing is also really important to mention. The navigation in a 5+ year old car really isn't all that useful unless you live in an area that never really changes. (Then you really don't need the nav anyway). But if you drive a lot, and often make trips across the country, then the system isn't going to do you much good with a 5+ year old map.

It's kind of like driving a car with a CD changer in the trunk- sooo 1990s. Almost all manufacturers offer cd changers in the dash now. The idea of going to the trunk to change cds is silly. And right now, cars with CD changers will be outdated soon because of the digital music players and hard drives that are taking over. They'll be about as useful as a cassette player in a few years. (which is still standard equipment on the Lexus GS... lol)

(2)
Cost and Convenience: As stated above, the OEM navigation costs nearly $2000. My Garmin Nuvi 750 was $299, and has most of the same features. It also can be moved from vehicle to vehicle. In addition, if I want to upgrade to the newest maps, it's only $60. (As apposed to over $150 for the OEM upgrade).

(3)
Reliability:
After seeing Toyota's navigation, I really disliked it. It has a motorized screen that opens and shuts to allow discs to be changed (both CD and Nav). Even with a CD changer, I change my CDs a lot. Toyota's nav screen seemed kind of flimsy, and the first thing that I wondered when I opened it the first time was: "Geez, I wonder how long it will be before it breaks". In addition, the cost of repair for the screen is outragious- well over $1000. If you want to order all the parts for the OEM system, they retail for over $5,000 for all of them. An obscene amount of money. If my Garmin breaks, I'll buy a new one.

Additionally, you guys brought up a good point: Incorporation of other vehicle systems, like the climate controls. While this is not the case in the Camry, your point still stands: if the screen breaks or does not function- you're out of luck.

The only real pros that I can think of for going OEM is that it looks nicer, and that you get energy screens with the hybrid model... but for $1,700 less, I went aftermarket and don't have any regrets.

To me, the OEM navs just don't make sense because they're really expensive to buy, update, and repair (if necessary), and I thought that going aftermarket was a better decision.

(Now you have 3 in your nav-talk party) :D
 

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TN Member
Prius
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Discussion Starter #7
Nice revival (no sarcasm). It's shocking only the 2 of us wrote anything.
hahaha. Yeah... people talk about hybrid battery lifespan but not navigation and other gadgets that do have a lifespan.

(1)
The value of the navigation system goes down significantly in the short-term resale value of the car. (It was nearly $2000 new, but according to KBB trade-in values, a 2007 XLE (20,000 miles) with nav only fetches $525 more than an identical car without). While this difference between the two will shrink over time (the difference in a 2002 XLE with 60,000 miles is only $300), it is still significant.

Your point that you bring up about resale and technology advancing is also really important to mention. The navigation in a 5+ year old car really isn't all that useful unless you live in an area that never really changes. (Then you really don't need the nav anyway). But if you drive a lot, and often make trips across the country, then the system isn't going to do you much good with a 5+ year old map.

It's kind of like driving a car with a CD changer in the trunk- sooo 1990s. Almost all manufacturers offer cd changers in the dash now. The idea of going to the trunk to change cds is silly. And right now, cars with CD changers will be outdated soon because of the digital music players and hard drives that are taking over. They'll be about as useful as a cassette player in a few years. (which is still standard equipment on the Lexus GS... lol)
[\quote]

That's a huge depreciation on an expensive option. I do appreciate the larger screen and not having to deal with wires and suction cups as I currently do with my TomTom but, ugh.... maybe it's only worth getting it if you're leasing the car; then it's Toyota's problem after the lease is up.

Well 5 years later you still can get map updates (5 years is just one model's life cycle. You can still get maps for a 2004 Prius or a 2002 Camry). That is unless you're thinking if someone bought it at a model-end clearance (e.g.a a 2006 Camry). I'm just thinking about a 2001 GS. That navigation screen is small and clearly outdated. I think that was Toyota's Gen 1 or Gen 2 nav.

True... although a trunk CD Changer still works, it's just super inconvenient and usually not as shock/skip-resistant. Haha.. my Prius came with a cassette player and a 6-CD Changer :confused:.

(2)
Cost and Convenience: As stated above, the OEM navigation costs nearly $2000. My Garmin Nuvi 750 was $299, and has most of the same features. It also can be moved from vehicle to vehicle. In addition, if I want to upgrade to the newest maps, it's only $60. (As apposed to over $150 for the OEM upgrade).
Cost for sure, yeah. Definitely worth the hassle of wires and stuff.

(3)
Reliability:
After seeing Toyota's navigation, I really disliked it. It has a motorized screen that opens and shuts to allow discs to be changed (both CD and Nav). Even with a CD changer, I change my CDs a lot. Toyota's nav screen seemed kind of flimsy, and the first thing that I wondered when I opened it the first time was: "Geez, I wonder how long it will be before it breaks". In addition, the cost of repair for the screen is outragious- well over $1000. If you want to order all the parts for the OEM system, they retail for over $5,000 for all of them. An obscene amount of money. If my Garmin breaks, I'll buy a new one.

Additionally, you guys brought up a good point: Incorporation of other vehicle systems, like the climate controls. While this is not the case in the Camry, your point still stands: if the screen breaks or does not function- you're out of luck.

The only real pros that I can think of for going OEM is that it looks nicer, and that you get energy screens with the hybrid model... but for $1,700 less, I went aftermarket and don't have any regrets.

To me, the OEM navs just don't make sense because they're really expensive to buy, update, and repair (if necessary), and I thought that going aftermarket was a better decision.

(Now you have 3 in your nav-talk party) :D
Good point about the motorized screen. Toyota does use that on most of its nav option. A Prius' screen is $4000 new or $400 refurbished and mine incorporates EVERYTHING. nav/telephone (if equipped on nav models), audio, climate, screen settings, energy monitor, consumption screen.
 

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The HDD-based OEM navigation systems still need to have maps loaded onto the working media, the hard-drive. That may be done with DVDs, CDs, USB flash drives (USB outlets are just now coming out). The advantage with HDD-based units is that they store more information, and likely provides faster access times than reading map information off a DVD or CD.

Soon, map information may be updated over in-car Internet. I seem to remember reading something a while ago that VW was working with Google to produce a navigation system based on Google Maps. The maps could reside on the HDD, but why not go one step further, similar to the OnStar navigation, where you call in to request a route, and then it is downloaded to your car? Go onto your in-car Internet before heading out, plot out a route, and then have it downloaded to your navigation system.

If you have in-car Internet, why not expand your navigation system some more and make it a full-fledged in-car PC? You then call up only the online maps that you need, and if Google does not have a good set of maps for where you are heading, use Mapquest.

There is other technology heading our way in the near future. What about around-the-car cameras so that you can see what is in your blindspot and what is behind you? What about real-time traffic updates? What about vehicle-to-vehicle networking and traffic communications so that your car knows that there is cross-traffic approaching the intersection, before you do? This latter technology will require standardization that right now has not been extended to the automotive technology world (so that a system made by Denso can talk with a system made by Delphi). I can foresee in the future, cars all running similar navigation systems (or at least a number of navigation systems available that are all based upon the same operating standard) that incorporate downloadable routing information, real-time traffic updates, and vehicle-to-vehicle networking. Just as we all have radios in cars these days, made by many different companies, but able to receive the same stations, our future navigation systems will become standardized.
 

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Prius
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Discussion Starter #9
Yeah VW did have this thing with Google but I don't know if any further development has occurred since that news blurb.

Hmm, I don't like the idea of downloading the route since I like to play around with routes and stuff so I might end up having a large data connection bill lol.


I guess just take the EX's "Around View" camera and have it permanently activated?? The thing I have about real-time traffic updates is that if people are using it, then we wouldn't really have jams would we? People would just start clogging up the secondary and tertiary roads instead so instead of one jammed primary road, we'll have several medium-heavy trafficked roads.


V2V networking would be cool (just hop onto the highway and zip along) but I think Nissan in Japan is coming up with the cross-traffic warning system where it will tell you if there's a vehicle approaching your street from a side road or entrance. They only have it in dangerous or blind corners and the gov't installs traffic cameras at those locations and I guess Nissan uses them somehow and relays the information to the car which then sends out the warning signal.
 

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Feel the vibe.
01 Corolla S
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20 years is a long time. Personally I don't think I will ever stick with a car for that long before I trade it in for a new one. Even 10 years is enough time to appreciate the luxury of in-dash nav, imo.
 

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Maybe a bit off-topic response, but I think integrated GPS systems are a huge waste of money. I have a Garmin nüvi 360 which I got for half the price of my friend's Infiniti in-dash system, and it beats it in almost every metric I care about:, I can take it anywhere, the graphics are MUCH better, I can load and upgrade the system over USB from my laptop.

Although, the suction cup mount sucks.
 

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Radio, this is Unit 91...
1993 Camry LE AT
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Maybe a bit off-topic response, but I think integrated GPS systems are a huge waste of money. I have a Garmin nüvi 360 which I got for half the price of my friend's Infiniti in-dash system, and it beats it in almost every metric I care about:, I can take it anywhere, the graphics are MUCH better, I can load and upgrade the system over USB from my laptop.

Although, the suction cup mount sucks.
And that's kind of a big deal for me. Back when I first had an in-car Nav...it was 2004, an Acura MDX. It was hand's down the best OEM system (touch-screen, voice control for key commands, breadcrumb icons for off-road or uncharted territory that let's you find your way back etc.). There was an aftermarket device that could compete. Now, fast forward to 2008, and it's looking better for aftermarket.....but it's still not for everyone. Having to remove it every time you park is funny....I watch my mom do it, and yes I have lol'd at her. You can't leave it in, as crack heads think nothing of breaking a window, and stealing your $300 device in a matter of 4 seconds. :ugh3: Just something to think about.
 

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Matrix 04 (base)
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And that's kind of a big deal for me. Back when I first had an in-car Nav...it was 2004, an Acura MDX. It was hand's down the best OEM system (touch-screen, voice control for key commands, breadcrumb icons for off-road or uncharted territory that let's you find your way back etc.). There was an aftermarket device that could compete. Now, fast forward to 2008, and it's looking better for aftermarket.....but it's still not for everyone. Having to remove it every time you park is funny....I watch my mom do it, and yes I have lol'd at her. You can't leave it in, as crack heads think nothing of breaking a window, and stealing your $300 device in a matter of 4 seconds. :ugh3: Just something to think about.
Indeed, I had my Garmin StreetPilot stolen from my Sonata (by breaking a window).

However, I don't mind unclipping it every time I stop, and stashing it. It takes literally 2 seconds for my to turn off, detatch and stash my GPS, which, for my money, is not at all an inconvenience.
 

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TN Member
Prius
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Discussion Starter #14
ok fine.. 10 years lol. Just think back to the Gen 1 or Gen 2 Toyota navs from the early 2000s. That's barely 8 years old. Or would you buy a 1998 GS400 with the gen 1 nav? or a 1998 GS400 sans nav?
 

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03 Toyota Highlander
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I find factory navs really pointless so it doesn't really bother me or not if it will affect my resale value. There are A LOT of car users like me who specify that we DO NOT want nav. A lot of navs bundle the radio with it which makes things even more complicated. Some may want OE nav so there isn't a clutter of wires but seriously how many people REALLY use their navs. I have friends that drives G35s, TLs, RDXs... etc. None of they turn on their navs and leaves the screen off all the time. Its just entertainment for the passenger to press through the buttons and see what it does.

I think its somewhat like a fad, like people who say they need to buy an SUV because they MIGHT need the extra cargo room when they go buy furniture maybe ONCE a year.
 

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Maybe a bit off-topic response, but I think integrated GPS systems are a huge waste of money. I have a Garmin nüvi 360 which I got for half the price of my friend's Infiniti in-dash system, and it beats it in almost every metric I care about:, I can take it anywhere, the graphics are MUCH better, I can load and upgrade the system over USB from my laptop.

Although, the suction cup mount sucks.
+1

Plus, you can take it out and move it between vehicles. Or take it camping if it's the AA battery-based unit.
 

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Prius
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Discussion Starter #17
+1

Plus, you can take it out and move it between vehicles. Or take it camping if it's the AA battery-based unit.
+2

I find factory navs really pointless so it doesn't really bother me or not if it will affect my resale value. There are A LOT of car users like me who specify that we DO NOT want nav. A lot of navs bundle the radio with it which makes things even more complicated. Some may want OE nav so there isn't a clutter of wires but seriously how many people REALLY use their navs. I have friends that drives G35s, TLs, RDXs... etc. None of they turn on their navs and leaves the screen off all the time. Its just entertainment for the passenger to press through the buttons and see what it does.

I think its somewhat like a fad, like people who say they need to buy an SUV because they MIGHT need the extra cargo room when they go buy furniture maybe ONCE a year.
haha it's not just nav. Moonroof, heated seats etc. It's just for show.

I've used mine (portable though) quite a bit. My cali trip, my cross-country trip are the two major ones. I kinda like Infiniti's setup.

I can't see how factory navs can continue as expensive factory options. With a portable one, you use it until a new one is more value than buying new maps then you dispose of it or sell it for cheap. With a factory nav, you can't exactly do that.
 

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03 Toyota Highlander
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Well moonroofs and heated seats are at least more functional for me. I like having more light in the car with my moonroof, so I use it, and I like my heated seats because my ass is cold lol. If you use it then its good, otherwise its useless.

I'm not saying no one uses the nav, just majority of the people do not yet the higher trims of luxury cars, and now even mid range cars include them and I see them as incurring an extra cost that I would never be able to take benefit of.

Even if you use it, its just for those two trips which is maybe one or twice in a year and you have to load the maps for that local area you are visiting.
 

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Prius
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Discussion Starter #19
Ditto. I have both in the smart (although the roof is fixed but it's a panoramic roof) and I use all my features that I buy.

It's DVD remember? You don't need to "load" maps any more. For Toyota, you just need to choose the region. On my TomTom, if you have the continental map loaded, you're fine. There are also regional maps but I find them pointless since the full continental map is like $10-20 more.
 
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