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Learn to Swim...
96 Camaro, 94 Camry
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
please take the time to read and understand this article...I hope it is informative b/c i'm tired of SMUG foreign car owners criticizing GM and Ford when the facts they use are not true. Dont get me wrong, I'm not against Toyota, etc, just against people who down GM, when obviously GM is doing excellent...read the article

From the Pittsburgh Post Gazette.


By Roger Simmermaker (Commentary)
Dec. 19, 2006

Ford and General Motors have taken turns besting the Toyota Camry in quality surveys for the past two years, but if you talk to many Americans – especially the ones who would never consider supporting home-based auto companies – you'd never know it.

Last year, the Chevrolet Impala beat the Camry in initial quality, according to J.D. Power & Associates. And Consumer Reports just announced that both the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan scored higher than both the Camry and the Honda Accord this year.

Even as GM and Ford have accumulated award after award on vehicle quality, you'd almost never know about such quality gains made by American companies.

There's also the mythical perception that foreign automakers produce the most fuel efficient cars and that Detroit only makes gas-guzzlers when the truth is that all automakers – including Toyota, Honda and Hyundai-Kia alike – have allowed fuel economy to slide in the past 20 years since they all now sell bigger trucks and more SUVs.

Perhaps the biggest perception problem is that American automobile companies GM and Ford – Chrysler is now German-owned – squander all their money on plants overseas and foreign automakers build their factories in the United States. Foreign car lovers will surely point to Kia's plans to build its first-ever U.S. plant in Georgia, but they probably won't mention that they received $400 million in tax giveaways to do it, which translates into $160,000 per job.

Among the many benefits for the foreign-owned company, your tax dollars are going to be used for road improvements surrounding the complex, complete with flower beds and other beautification features. Hey, as long as we're going to allow states to bid for private jobs with our public tax dollars, we might as well make it look good, right?

And the foreign car lovers will probably also not tell you (or maybe they just don't know or don't want you to know) that GM and Ford pour more money into existing American facilities than foreign automakers spend on new plants, usually with little or no tax breaks. GM has already spent more than $500 million upgrading two transmission plants this year, and has spent nearly a billion dollars over the last decade, for example, for facility upgrades in Texas.

And what do GM and Ford get for making their existing plants more efficient? It isn't tax breaks. Instead, they get accusations of not being "competitive" enough! Maybe here I should also mention that the average domestic parts content for Kia is 3 percent, while the average domestic parts content of Ford and GM is 78 percent and 74 percent, respectively. This means that buying a U.S.-assembled (or even foreign-assembled, for that matter) GM or Ford supports more American jobs than a U.S.-assembled car or truck with a foreign nameplate.

Fortunately for our benefit, the United States remains the overall global leader in research and development, and a big reason for that is that American automakers. According to the Level Field Institute, U.S. car companies invest $16 billion in research and development annually, outpacing any other industry one could name.

Admittedly, the Level Field Institute counts German-owned DaimlerChrysler as an American automaker, so Ford and GM's combined R&D contribution to America is closer to around $12 billion. But who's counting, right? Certainly not the American auto-bashing media.

Japanese companies do employ 3,600 American workers in R&D, but that still leaves the foreign competition behind in the dust staring at American rear bumpers – 3,600 sounds like a big number until you realize that 65,000 Americans work in R&D facilities in the state of Michigan alone. In fact, two of the top four R&D spending companies in America as reported by the Wall Street Journal are – you guessed it – Ford and GM. The other two are also American companies: Pfizer and Microsoft.

Ford has recently made headlines as the American automaker with the most challenges to its future, but these challenges certainly are not because they "aren't making cars people want to buy." Toyota did outsell Ford in July, but since then, Ford has reclaimed the No. 2 spot.

GM has the highest market share, increasing over 2 percentage points from a year ago, so it apparently can't be accused of not making cars people want to buy either. Ford sales also are up in Europe, and Ford doubled its sales in China, where GM has the highest market share of any automaker.

GM also reported a 3.9 percent rise in August vehicle sales despite high gas prices and a supposedly slowing economy. And even though Toyota reported record sales that month, it couldn't match the non-record setting sales volume of Ford. GM's sales rose 17 percent in October from the year-ago month and Ford sales rose 8 percent the same period.

And for all the talk about the lack of fuel efficiency of American automakers, it seems three-fourths of all automakers failed to meet Europe's improved fuel-efficiency standards intended to cut carbon-dioxide emissions. Japanese and German automakers topped the list of the study's worst performers, but according to an environmental group's study, GM's Opel division and Ford both "come out well."

In closing, I'll leave some encouraging numbers for those of us who actually like to root for and support the home team. The J.D. Power 2006 Vehicle Dependability Survey reports that Mercury, Buick and Cadillac (in that order) grabbed the No. 2, 3 and 4 spots to beat Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW and everyone else (except Lexus) in having the least number of problems per 100 vehicles.

Perhaps someday the American media will give GM and Ford the credit they deserve. And once they do, perception among the majority of the American public will rightfully change. GM and Ford aren't only doing what they should to make gains in the American market to deserve American consumer loyalty; they're also doing what they should to make gains in the markets of China, Europe and across most of the rest of the globe.
 

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Premium Member
'96 Camry XLE
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Most of that is CLEARLY crap, and is all propaganda for the US AutoMakers, and not worth my time to explain why each point is false.
 

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My Other Truck
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blackedcoupeLE said:
Last year, the Chevrolet Impala beat the Camry in initial quality, according to J.D. Power & Associates. And Consumer Reports just announced that both the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan scored higher than both the Camry and the Honda Accord this year.
I won't attempt to address/analyze the entire article, but it may raise some valid points. As to initial quality, that's always been a tough one for me to buy into. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that's mostly a measure of how quiet is it, how plush are the seats, how smooth is the ride etc. When considering a new vehicle purchase, I am much more interested in how many times will it be in the shop, how good will it be in 3 years, 7 years, and beyond, and what the resale value will be at those points in its life -- not to mention how easy it will be to sell, which is not necessarily the same as resale value.
 

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Learn to Swim...
96 Camaro, 94 Camry
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207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
i guess it will take some time to prove...but I just get annoyed by all the ignorant people out there, who say GM isn't improving. I dont know, I've owned my camry for 4 months now, 160K, and it is falling apart. I have owned 5 GM vehicles ranging from 28 years old w/ 210K+ and they still ran like new. So far I just dont see why people have all these ideas that foreign cars are so great. I think a car is a car, and depends on it owner. Maybe its the people who own domestics v the people who own foreigns...i dont know, i just hope that people wont be so closed minded and only buy foreign cars.
 

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blackedcoupeLE said:
i guess it will take some time to prove...but I just get annoyed by all the ignorant people out there, who say GM isn't improving. I dont know, I've owned my camry for 4 months now, 160K, and it is falling apart. I have owned 5 GM vehicles ranging from 28 years old w/ 210K+ and they still ran like new. So far I just dont see why people have all these ideas that foreign cars are so great. I think a car is a car, and depends on it owner. Maybe its the people who own domestics v the people who own foreigns...i dont know, i just hope that people wont be so closed minded and only buy foreign cars.
What you joind a month ago to come here and bash on foreign cars? You are on the wrong board go to GM message board.
 

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My Other Truck
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blackedcoupeLE said:
i guess it will take some time to prove...but I just get annoyed by all the ignorant people out there, who say GM isn't improving. I dont know, I've owned my camry for 4 months now, 160K, and it is falling apart. I have owned 5 GM vehicles ranging from 28 years old w/ 210K+ and they still ran like new. So far I just dont see why people have all these ideas that foreign cars are so great. I think a car is a car, and depends on it owner. Maybe its the people who own domestics v the people who own foreigns...i dont know, i just hope that people wont be so closed minded and only buy foreign cars.
A discussion is not a discussion if your mind is closed -- you seem to be pro-GM and anti-import brand. If your post (quoted above) was in any way directed towards me, you are wasting your time. I have been buying vehicles, foreign and domestic, for over forty years. One of my current vehicles is a 35-year-old Chevy 4x4 that I have owned for 30 years, and it's my daily driver. I also own a Tacoma and a Grand Cherokee. I buy what I want, based on my own criteria. I may consider input from others when buying, but nobody tells me how to spend my money.
 

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My Other Truck
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blackedcoupeLE said:
I've owned my camry for 4 months now, 160K, and it is falling apart. I have owned 5 GM vehicles ranging from 28 years old w/ 210K+ and they still ran like new.
Sorry, I just can't let this go unanswered.

You actually put 160,000 miles on your Camry in only 4 months? Incredible! If it's falling apart, maybe you failed to maintain it. I am highly skeptical.

You have owned 5 GM (or any other, for that matter) vehicles with over 210,000 miles that still ran like new? Why on Earth would you have switched to a different brand after that kind of success? I am highly skeptical.

I'll leave it to someone else to raise the BS flag. If you had just posted the article and left it open for discussion, you may have had more believability. But at this point, I am highly skeptical.
 

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Premium Member
'96 Camry XLE
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Sold my old 1992 5SFE Camry 2 years back. 190k miles, ALL orginal engine and tranny (minus normal ware items). It you have one that is falling apart at 160k miles, it has been extremely lacked in repaires. I do have to admit, my friend has a '97 Tahoe, and has 140k mles on it, and still runs good. :)
 

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Learn to Swim...
96 Camaro, 94 Camry
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207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
i never said that i put 160K on it...and i'm not downing either brand, i think, as i already posted, it is determined mostly by its owner

I'll admit, I'm a GM guy, however, i'm not anti-toyotan/foreign...i've just had lots of people come up to me, that no nothing about cars, and try to explain to me how much better foreign cars are. Yes GM has had its fair share of bad years, but everyone seems to ignore steps there taking to correct their past, and improve their cars (and it seems to be working)
 

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My Other Truck
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blackedcoupeLE said:
i never said that i put 160K on it...
Then what did you mean when you posted this??
blackedcoupeLE said:
I've owned my camry for 4 months now, 160K, and it is falling apart.

blackedcoupeLE said:
Yes GM has had its fair share of bad years, but everyone seems to ignore steps there taking to correct their past, and improve their cars (and it seems to be working)
I agree, they are improving -- competition from higher-quality products will force that. I hope they continue to improve -- I was a Chevy guy since my teen years (my first three new cars were Chevrolets) and have since been disappointed by their products.
 

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Rated H: Chikan Sukebe
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Could it be that they are improving because of the tech they gained/learned from Toyota? Hell you can not take apart certain vehicles from any of GMs line up without coming across Toyota parts. Same with the Dodge Caravan.

Can anybody say Toyota/GM co-op plant? Hmm The Vibe is what again? Oh yeah a "domestic" version of the Matrix. Lets not forget earlier versions of the Cavalier as well which was powered completely by Toyota, the body style was just GM.

If the domestic are so way ahead technology wise, why is it they all run to Toyota, Honda and Nissan for tech and stuff, if they are spending so much on R&D why is it that all of Ford hybrids have Toyotas hybrid system in it?

That really shows how technology superior they are.

Why is it during the 80's they lobbied to have forgien automakers specifically Honda and Toyota have higher embargos, which indeed passed? And just recently a couple of months they went to Bush to have him impose sanctions on Toyota specifically due to the fact that they are loosing money.

Did i mention the fact that Toyota has better reliablity than some of the domestics. They problem is they focued on their truck line-up while Toyota and others focused on the cars. So now they are loosing the car wars and is bitching and crying about it.

And just a little known fact, Toyota with more US based suppliers than The Big 3, and in deals without of smaller suppliers as well.

if GM is doing so well why is it that they have sold off basically every part of the company with the last being GMAC? That does not sound like a company that is doing well. Nor does cutting the thousands of jobs they do. When was the last time Toyota slashed jobs at a factory?

And BTW, us Import guys would not have such an attitude towards the Domestic guys, they they was not always putting us down, they started the war, we just keep winning the battles. And you can thank a lot of the Muscle car guys as well.

We never had a problem with them until they started with us.

It is almost like the Harley Davidson and Indian wars back in the day
 

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Learn to Swim...
96 Camaro, 94 Camry
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
well...i didn't mean to start a big foreign v domestic who started it debate, those kind of questions cant be answered. Just wanted to share some information.
 

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5M-GE
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*looks at sig*

Toyota.
Pontiac.
Nissan.
Honda.

can't we all just fucking get along
 

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Rated H: Chikan Sukebe
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blackedcoupeLE said:
well...i didn't mean to start a big foreign v domestic who started it debate, those kind of questions cant be answered. Just wanted to share some information.
But you also stated that your tired of the ppl who own forgien cars saying that theirs is better than the American ones, it was American car owners that started the whole thing to begin with, so it is only natural that forgien car owners make a stand and voice their opinions as well, and when it boild down to it, it will alwasy be Forgien vs domestic, even when some of those forgien is more domestic than the South American/Mexico built domestics.

Even still to this day, you can find a lot of ppl who are saying buy American, but at the same time if your buying a Toyota, 9 out of 10 your buying American with American supplied parts, so until ppl like that calm down and get a grip you will always get approached by ppl saying to you what they have said.


And for teh record, my first two cars was American, Ford Escort and a Ponitac Grand Am, the escort was used while the Grand Am was new and both gave me problems from the time I got them.

The only American vehicle that I drove that never gave me any problems is the Humvee back when I was in the Corps.
 

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Learn to Swim...
96 Camaro, 94 Camry
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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
were you there when the debate officially started? sounds like a lot of finger pointing going.

also in reply to one of the posts...I got a deal on a camry that I couldn't pass up. I have never had a GM car fail on me. I've owned GM's ranging from 1973 to 1996, with mileage from 100K to 210K. My 1984 Delta 88 was possibly the smoothest riding and most reliable car I've ever owned. My reasons for changing vehicles depends on my interests at the time, I sold the 88 for a 455 cutlass, then that for a Camaro. And the others have been winter and secondary vehicles. I have an open mind, yes I may like certain makes, but it wont stop me from buying other makes. I've owned GM, Ford, Chysler, and Toyota...

I guess this board isn't open minded as i thought

as for people calling BS and then not saying why they dont agree...yea whatever
 

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blackedcoupeLE said:
were you there when the debate officially started? sounds like a lot of finger pointing going.

also in reply to one of the posts...I got a deal on a camry that I couldn't pass up. I have never had a GM car fail on me. I've owned GM's ranging from 1973 to 1996, with mileage from 100K to 210K. My 1984 Delta 88 was possibly the smoothest riding and most reliable car I've ever owned. My reasons for changing vehicles depends on my interests at the time, I sold the 88 for a 455 cutlass, then that for a Camaro. And the others have been winter and secondary vehicles. I have an open mind, yes I may like certain makes, but it wont stop me from buying other makes. I've owned GM, Ford, Chysler, and Toyota...

I guess this board isn't open minded as i thought

as for people calling BS and then not saying why they dont agree...yea whatever
We are open minded here on TN, and I was one of the orginals that called BS for most of the article, and then I later stated in my other post my feeling towards the matter.

As for was I there when the debate offically started?, no I was not and it really is not finger pointing when still till this day you have the ppl from that era carryng on the same nonsense as they did back then. Think about it, how many ppl do you ever hear and clamoring buy Japan, it is always buy American its better, we are a proud country and put down others that we feel are inferior, and not to mention at the time Toyota back then Toyopet started selling cars here in the US, a lot of Americans had major resentment towards Japan because of the war.

I have a friend who can only buy Fords, because his dad is a Ford guy, who already wrote one child out of his will for buying a Honda and on top of that do not deal with them. I know that is extreme, but especially with the older Muscle car guys they feel that if it is not American then it sucks, and basically that is where it all stems from seriously. Like i said it like the Harley and Indian Wars back in the day

You can go to a drag strip with lets say a 750whp Import and there is nothing but American Muscle there, the Import guy will get ragged and piss on big time casue hes not racing American muscle.

It is just the way the cookie crumbles. if you visit some of the American car forums you will see them shitting on the imports, and you will see what the import guys say and do is nothing compared to what the American car guys says and does.

I am not bias against any car manufactuer, as long as it gets me from point A to B and back to A then I dont care, well except the Neon, has to be the worst car I ever drove, but that is a different story for a different time and it does not help that they all was rentals when i had a Neon.

When it came time to replace the Grand Am I was torn between the Stratus and the Camry, choose the Camry cause i got a better deal.

I choose to stay with Toyota and their line of cars, for various reasons and as ASG14 and VietGuhTrippie would tell you I was just in an accident that I walked away with only a minor scratch that I should have been severaly hurt with something broken.

I can sit and intelligently talk about the differences between cars, but when I will admit, i will always be a little on the defensive side from the years of put down from driving an import and how i should be driving American.
BTW the Koreans automakers are the low man on the totem pole for import cars they get crap from everybody :sosad:, when China starts to become more mainstream in a sense they start selling more out of country than in they will probably be the low man, that is just the way it is.

Also as i pointed out in my other post, that article fails to point out that Gm is slashing thousands of jobs in the factory cause the sales are too low to sustain the workforce they have, nor does it point out how GM has sold off basically every part of their existenance with GMAC being the last, due to lack of sales.

Hell there was an article from AP the otherday where a Dodge rep said since Toyota now has enter NASCAR they are gonna make it more expensvie and bring down sales.

I like to see the picture from all sides, ppl say there is two sides to every story i say there is three, becasue you have the story from the person who has nothing to gain as obvisously parties A and B have some stake in it while Party C is just there and could give a damn as to what happens.

Like i said can intelligently talk about this if you want and bring the facts to the table, either way I think everybody needs to grow some and chill its just a car and a car company.

Edit: ASG14's dad drives a toyota, but always claim American are real cars.
 
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