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5M-GE
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2,901 Posts
I do believe hearing about Toyota having competitor cars in their posession for research before... I don't think this is anything new, for any manufacturer ;)
 

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Iron Chef IV
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730 Posts
Im sure all companies do it. Toyota even does it. I remember reading a review on the Previa and they said that they were driving across the desert when the T100 they were following hit a boar. They went back to the testing facility and the Toyota engineers were all over the T100.
 

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Prius
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5,461 Posts
"Yet the 400h gets just three more miles per gallon on the highway than the RX 330 - and it costs nearly $10,000 more. GM engineers say that this price tag at last accurately reflects the real cost of hybrid tech."

-omg really? so a Prius with all the goodies like nav, bluetooth, backup camera really is only worth $18,000?!? Who needs a tC?

That Malibu vs. Prius parts thing is old news.

I remember in 1996 when they promised fuel cells in 2003. Ya well, they're 3 years overdue. 2010 still seems optimistic. 2015 maybe...

Besides, if GM wants to be the first to get fuel cell cars out, by all means. Toyota's waiting with its fuel cell hybrid vehicle.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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4,486 Posts
Im sure thats something that everyone does. Everybody copies everybody else at on point or another.
The better you know the strengths and weaknesses of your competitors, the better you can design your own vehicles.
 

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5SFE
'94 Toyota Camry
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747 Posts
I'm sure everybody does reverse engineering. Hyundai/Kia must do it to Toyota whips. I wonder what cars Toyota cuts up? Nissan must cut Toyos and Hondas. Lexus doesn't cut any.. They are PERFECTLY made everytime:):):):):) kidding!! But, GM is just tryin' to justify their crappy cars by bashing hybrid tech. Did carbs vs. FI have this type of battle?
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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4,486 Posts
Lord_Anarchy, go to any domestic truck forum and you will get people who swear that trucks made in the '70s were built 10 times better than the ones built today.
I swear they'd be happy as could be if they could get a truck with carbs and a flathead V8.
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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976 Posts
ToyotaMan1281 said:
toyota will always be beter, ALWAYS
Hopefully Toyota execs don't think like that. If Toyota showers itself in ego and blinds itself to its own faults, it will be the downfall of them like it was for GM in the 1970s.

I thought this was a very insightful and interesting article. If GM is really confident about having a fuel cell system ready by 2010, then the oil age may be coming to a close. The next decade is going to be crucial; in my HVAC architecture class, there is a heavy emphasis on designing buildings that consume as little energy as possible because we are running out of oil. Many of the all-glass highrises that were built in the 1960s that are energy pigs will probably be abandoned or torn down since no one in the future will be able to afford to keep them heated and cooled.

Unless there is a major cultural shift by 2025, the world will be a very different place. Fuel cells are part of this cultural shift. I know many here don't seem to take fuel cell seriously and are convinced that gasoline hybrids are the future, but hopefully Toyota is thinking otherwise if they want to stay competitive. There are already plans in California for 200 hydrogen stations to be built along the I-5 corridor by 2010.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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4,486 Posts
dsmnick said:
I know many here don't seem to take fuel cell seriously and are convinced that gasoline hybrids are the future, but hopefully Toyota is thinking otherwise if they want to stay competitive. There are already plans in California for 200 hydrogen stations to be built along the I-5 corridor by 2010.
Hydrogen still has so many unresolved problems, one of them how can we pay for the cost to produce hydrogen?
I personally think that hydrogen hybrids are the future. It will combine the best of both worlds.
 

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TN Member
Prius
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5,461 Posts
No one said gas-electric hybrids are the sustained future. Even in the 2001 Prius brochure, it states that it's the "bridge from where we are now and where we want to be in the future."

Besides, GM can release their fuel cells for all I care. Toyota will come out with something better and because they have the Prius, they can make hydrogen hybrids. So if GM is trying to be smart and skip a step like the typical American manufacture to cut corners, they'll end up behind in the long run.
 

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The Return of the Red Coupe
2010 RAV4 V6
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19,665 Posts
It's true.. I used to live right behind the new GM Engineering building here in Oshawa, and they had TONS of other manufacturer's cars in their parking lot. I remember seeing RX300s, X5s, Corollas, Benzes, etc..
 

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5SFE
'94 Toyota Camry
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747 Posts
It'll be a good while before hydrogen becomes standard because who's gonna foot the bill to build these new hydrogen stations to replace gas stations. Would gas become cheaper if say, 90% went hydro-powered? What if I have a hydro-powered car and try to go cross-country? I doubt little mom and pop gas stations out in middle-of-nowhere, Indiana will have a hydrogen pumping station. What would they charge per gallon for H? This crap is just like that digital tv signal upgrade where by... what year is it? 2009? Everyone is either to have a digital TV or a digital tuner for their analog TV as the broadcast signal will have to switch from analog to digital. FCC wants to free up the bandwith for gov and public communication.
 

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Registered
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GM is one of the leading manufacturers supporting E85 fuel. Why they aren't making a bigger push for that is crazy! Pump out more E85-capable vehicles and help get the ball rolling on the E85 infastructure (especially in their own backyard, ie Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, etc.)

I'm all for Fuel Cells, but they've been talking about them since the 60s. It's always "10-15 years away". They may have some on the road in 2010, but I bet, like Hybrids, it'd be 5-10 years before they even capture a few percent of the market. Five years into the Hybrid age and we're at, what, 3% of the market? Doesn't really sound like a shift in buying habits just yet to me.
 

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Black since 1985
97 Camry
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2,468 Posts
Tideland Prius said:
"Yet the 400h gets just three more miles per gallon on the highway than the RX 330 - and it costs nearly $10,000 more. GM engineers say that this price tag at last accurately reflects the real cost of hybrid tech."

No sh** GM, but they're not just paying for the hybrid tech. The RX330 makes 230HP like they said, 400h makes 268, that's like getting the bigger engine option in a car(in addition to the hybrid tech, and other things), 4 cyl, malibu vs. V6 option, Mustang V6 vs. GT, etc, etc. They're losing and making BS excuses as to why they're not changing there ways IMO:disappoin
 

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I dont think hydrogen is really all that helpful. I mean sure, it produces water as the only byproduct...BUT the process to produce hydrogen uses almost as much oil as actually running on gasoline...
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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976 Posts
Ruffrydasean said:
No sh** GM, but they're not just paying for the hybrid tech. The RX330 makes 230HP like they said, 400h makes 268, that's like getting the bigger engine option in a car(in addition to the hybrid tech, and other things), 4 cyl, malibu vs. V6 option, Mustang V6 vs. GT, etc, etc. They're losing and making BS excuses as to why they're not changing there ways IMO:disappoin
Isn't the whole point of the hybrid to SAVE gas, not produce more horsepower? Toyota simply bolted an electric motor onto the gasoline engine without decreasing the size of the gas engine, while in the Escape hybrid Ford made the gasoline engine smaller to get much better fuel economy. Horsepower suffers some, but hybrids are supposed to be about better fuel economy, right? Otherwise you'd be buying a 300 hp Mustang GT or a 425 hp Charger SRT-8 if you REALLY wanted horsepower.

Toyota could have done a much better job on the Highlander and RX hybrids...the complaints they are getting about poor fuel economy compared to the gasoline version are deserved. I sure as hell wouldn't pay an $8000 premium for an extra 38 horses when I'm only getting 3 MPG better than the gasoline version. Anybody who pays for that is simply buying into hype. Save money and buy a compact car or a diesel car if fuel efficiency is so important. If the Highlander and RX hybrids were getting 10 MPG better, then I would say go for it...but as it stands right now, it's not worth the added cost.
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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976 Posts
pjsammy said:
GM is one of the leading manufacturers supporting E85 fuel. Why they aren't making a bigger push for that is crazy! Pump out more E85-capable vehicles and help get the ball rolling on the E85 infastructure (especially in their own backyard, ie Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, etc.)

I'm all for Fuel Cells, but they've been talking about them since the 60s. It's always "10-15 years away". They may have some on the road in 2010, but I bet, like Hybrids, it'd be 5-10 years before they even capture a few percent of the market. Five years into the Hybrid age and we're at, what, 3% of the market? Doesn't really sound like a shift in buying habits just yet to me.
I don't know as much what GM is doing about E85, but Ford is making a big push to have half of its lineup E85 capable in the next few years. Ford is currently the largest producer of E85 vehicles and has the most on the road. E85 is more popular in the midwest since soybeans are plentiful and there are more E85 filling stations, but it's definitely something that should spread to the rest of the country. Not only are you helping farmers by buying E85 gas, but you pay less at the pump and E85 even gives small boosts in horsepower.

The thing that's different about today than the 1960s is that fuel is more scarce and the world is a different place politically. With each passing year, we are coming closer to depleting our oil reserves. I have a feeling as gas becomes more expensive and less plentiful, development of fuel cell technology will become more urgent. Right now it isn't economically feasible, but whose to say it won't be in another 3 or 4 years? In times of crisis, you'd be amazed how technology that we fumbled around with for decades trying to figure out how to make work suddenly becomes possible overnight.
 

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1993 Camry XLE
93 CamXLE/73 Lincoln
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A hybrid's only purpose is not just to save on gas, the other is to also reduce emissions.
 

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Prius
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dsmnick said:
Isn't the whole point of the hybrid to SAVE gas, not produce more horsepower? Toyota simply bolted an electric motor onto the gasoline engine without decreasing the size of the gas engine, while in the Escape hybrid Ford made the gasoline engine smaller to get much better fuel economy. Horsepower suffers some, but hybrids are supposed to be about better fuel economy, right? Otherwise you'd be buying a 300 hp Mustang GT or a 425 hp Charger SRT-8 if you REALLY wanted horsepower.

Toyota could have done a much better job on the Highlander and RX hybrids...the complaints they are getting about poor fuel economy compared to the gasoline version are deserved. I sure as hell wouldn't pay an $8000 premium for an extra 38 horses when I'm only getting 3 MPG better than the gasoline version. Anybody who pays for that is simply buying into hype. Save money and buy a compact car or a diesel car if fuel efficiency is so important. If the Highlander and RX hybrids were getting 10 MPG better, then I would say go for it...but as it stands right now, it's not worth the added cost.
See, that's the problem. First you people say hybrids are slow and weak. Now Toyota presents to you a hybrid that's waay more powerful and you people say it's inefficient. Make up your damn mind!

Anyway, the purpose of the RX400h and Highlander Hybrid was to basically prove to people that if they wanted to, they could use hybrid technology for performance. Just think of them as alternatives to the Explorer V8, 4Runner V8, X5 4.0i, ML500 and so on. I mean, the Highlander Hybrid OUTRUNS the X5 4.0i 0-60 and quarter mile while consuming fuel like a Camry 4 cylinder (ok, official figures put it with Corollas but I figured a Camry is closer.).

On the RX400h test drive I did in May, my average was 9.0L/100km or 26mpg US
 
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