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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
2009 Sienna LE 3.5l

fault codes P0014, P0015, P0017
Test related camshaft and crankshaft components & sensor operation. Found internal engine variable valve sprockets and timing chains worn.

parts-
Timing chain/ Gears/ Tensioners/ Actuator sprocket kit; cylinder head, timing cover, engine gaskets, seals and fluids.

3k parts?
3k labor
 

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A second opinion is a good idea. Is that U.S. dollars or Canadian?

Also, Cylinder Head? Why?

I am assuming a shop inspected the engine and told you this? or are you just going off of the codes and google searches? Like the guy above asked, how was it diagnosed to need those parts?

I am not familiar with the Sienna, My Father in law had his 2009 ford F150 taken in for a timing job, they replaced both the cam sprockets (cam phasers) Timing chain, tensioners, guides, seals and gaskets for valve covers and timing chain cover. This job also requires removing quite a few components just to get the timing chain cover off so quite a bit of labor. Parts and labor were like $1,500. So ya, $6K seems a bit nuts to me. That may be totally legit for your vehicle and issue but I sure would take it to at least one more shop for an inspection and quote.

I was looking up the price of some timing kits for that vehicle and new phasers/sprockets, looks like it can run up to like $700 to $1200 us. Gaskets and seals fluids should be pretty cheap. Not sure where they are getting 3K in parts and new timing cover and head? But if your issue was from a failed tensioner or broken timing chain guide allowing the chain to rattle in its housing and your engine and if your cover and head are aluminum, it is not uncommon for the chain to rub against the timing cover and not only put metal shavings into the oil but also even grind a hole right through the cover. I do not think it needs to be replaced unless it has some very serious damage or a hole worn through. Could it have done enough damage to the head to need a replacement? or did it just get a bit scratched and they are trying to sell you parts you do not really need? Replacing the head will add a lot to the parts and labor cost. Get a second opinion and find out if this is something you really must replace.
 

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if you did not open it up and look or have a shop inspect, how does the vehicle function? Does it run fine at speed but maybe lack power then run really rough when driving slow like in your driveway, or coming to a stop? is there a rattle when you first start up? these codes could simply be a bad sensor, a bad or clogged solenoid which can be replaced without taking anything apart, or just a worn spring on one of the cam phasers. This does require removing the valve cover for that one side, blocking the chain in place so it does not move when you remove the chain from the one cam phaser/sprocket, then one bolt to remove to pull the phaser off of the cam shaft, then slip on the new phaser, replace the bolt, replace the chain, remove the rubber block that holds the chain/timing in place, new valve cover gasket. replace cover and any sensor or actuator you had to remove to do so. Something you could do yourself with a few parts and maybe a kit with a block to hold the chain in place so you do not lose the timing. if you opened it up, do you have any pictures to share? A bad phaser can usually be identified visually by how it is positioned with the engine off, You will have to look up how yours is supposed to be positioned when at 0 when off. if it is not sitting where it is supposed to be that is a clear sign of a bad spring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yes, you are very screwed; for what, don't know!

How many miles on the vehicle? How do you know the chians are worn? What have you done for disgnoses?

got quoted from Chevron, which has a pretty reputable service station. Car has 146k miles, has been leaking a little pink stuff, and some oil, has been starting with a little screech turning over. (Mom’s car, she lagged on getting timing chain replaced— )
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
A second opinion is a good idea. Is that U.S. dollars or Canadian?

Also, Cylinder Head? Why?

I am assuming a shop inspected the engine and told you this? or are you just going off of the codes and google searches? Like the guy above asked, how was it diagnosed to need those parts?

I am not familiar with the Sienna, My Father in law had his 2009 ford F150 taken in for a timing job, they replaced both the cam sprockets (cam phasers) Timing chain, tensioners, guides, seals and gaskets for valve covers and timing chain cover. This job also requires removing quite a few components just to get the timing chain cover off so quite a bit of labor. Parts and labor were like $1,500. So ya, $6K seems a bit nuts to me. That may be totally legit for your vehicle and issue but I sure would take it to at least one more shop for an inspection and quote.

I was looking up the price of some timing kits for that vehicle and new phasers/sprockets, looks like it can run up to like $700 to $1200 us. Gaskets and seals fluids should be pretty cheap. Not sure where they are getting 3K in parts and new timing cover and head? But if your issue was from a failed tensioner or broken timing chain guide allowing the chain to rattle in its housing and your engine and if your cover and head are aluminum, it is not uncommon for the chain to rub against the timing cover and not only put metal shavings into the oil but also even grind a hole right through the cover. I do not think it needs to be replaced unless it has some very serious damage or a hole worn through. Could it have done enough damage to the head to need a replacement? or did it just get a bit scratched and they are trying to sell you parts you do not really need? Replacing the head will add a lot to the parts and labor cost. Get a second opinion and find out if this is something you really must replace.
US dollars.Quoted from a reputable Chevron, their service station.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
if you did not open it up and look or have a shop inspect, how does the vehicle function? Does it run fine at speed but maybe lack power then run really rough when driving slow like in your driveway, or coming to a stop? is there a rattle when you first start up? these codes could simply be a bad sensor, a bad or clogged solenoid which can be replaced without taking anything apart, or just a worn spring on one of the cam phasers. This does require removing the valve cover for that one side, blocking the chain in place so it does not move when you remove the chain from the one cam phaser/sprocket, then one bolt to remove to pull the phaser off of the cam shaft, then slip on the new phaser, replace the bolt, replace the chain, remove the rubber block that holds the chain/timing in place, new valve cover gasket. replace cover and any sensor or actuator you had to remove to do so. Something you could do yourself with a few parts and maybe a kit with a block to hold the chain in place so you do not lose the timing. if you opened it up, do you have any pictures to share? A bad phaser can usually be identified visually by how it is positioned with the engine off, You will have to look up how yours is supposed to be positioned when at 0 when off. if it is not sitting where it is supposed to be that is a clear sign of a bad spring.
yeah, unfortunately I have zero knowledge about engines, and how to even get close to seeing issues or repair. I just got quoted from a reputable Chevron service station… car has 146k miles, has been leaking a bit of pink stuff and oil (timing/water pump I gather) and does have that rattle when starting…. Idles high last couple starts, I thought maybe it’s cold from not driving it —- but drives fine when going..not that I’ve been driving it at all from station to home 2 miles.
 

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got quoted from Chevron, which has a pretty reputable service station. Car has 146k miles, has been leaking a little pink stuff, and some oil, has been starting with a little screech turning over. (Mom’s car, she lagged on getting timing chain replaced— )
Can I ask how much do you want to be involved?
Do you want to learn something about cars?
Reason for asking, unless you want to learn something about cars, and willing to do some basic diagnose steps, there isn't much we can tell you with the situation, except maybe get a 2nd opinion!
 

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If it was mine I would probably take off the valve cover to get a visual of the condition of the sprocket and chain and see the position of the cam phaser, then try to look down the chain to see if I can see anything obvious going on with the plastic chain guides, In fords they will crack and sometime break to pieces. I would also pull the oil pan off to see if I had any chunks of that guide in the pan. Those steps right there will give you a lot of information. Replacing a head and timing cover with new ones makes no sense to me unless there is obvious damage, or they are trying to take advantage of someone that does not know much about engines. Would not be the first shop selling you parts and services you do not need. Did you mention oil and coolant leaks? Can you see where the coolant is leaking from? You might just have a loose clamp and they are trying to sell you a water pump job. Do you have water in your oil? Otherwise I do not know why they are saying you need a new head, even then it would be a head gasket not a new head.
Did they actually look at the vehicle? do you know what exactly they did? Did they remove any components or just start it up and listen? Did they give you a written quote and list of things they looked at and what they found? If so can you post it?
 

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Miracle Fix for the VVT Death Rattle - 2GR-FE Toyota 3.5-liter V6 - RAV4 Camry Sienna Highlander - YouTube

Try the simple things first like the video above. By the way, the Timing job on that engine if that is the one on yours looks like a real pain in the rear, I am not going to complain about having to change out my own timing belt every 90K. A piece of cake in comparison. If they have to pull your engine to to a timing chain job, that would explain the labor cost. But lets hope a better shop can find it is something much simpler and cheaper to correct your issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Miracle Fix for the VVT Death Rattle - 2GR-FE Toyota 3.5-liter V6 - RAV4 Camry Sienna Highlander - YouTube

Try the simple things first like the video above. By the way, the Timing job on that engine if that is the one on yours looks like a real pain in the rear, I am not going to complain about having to change out my own timing belt every 90K. A piece of cake in comparison. If they have to pull your engine to to a timing chain job, that would explain the labor cost. But lets hope a better shop can find it is something much simpler and cheaper to correct your issues.
thanks, I’m not sure if they have to pull it for timing chain install
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
If it was mine I would probably take off the valve cover to get a visual of the condition of the sprocket and chain and see the position of the cam phaser, then try to look down the chain to see if I can see anything obvious going on with the plastic chain guides, In fords they will crack and sometime break to pieces. I would also pull the oil pan off to see if I had any chunks of that guide in the pan. Those steps right there will give you a lot of information. Replacing a head and timing cover with new ones makes no sense to me unless there is obvious damage, or they are trying to take advantage of someone that does not know much about engines. Would not be the first shop selling you parts and services you do not need. Did you mention oil and coolant leaks? Can you see where the coolant is leaking from? You might just have a loose clamp and they are trying to sell you a water pump job. Do you have water in your oil? Otherwise I do not know why they are saying you need a new head, even then it would be a head gasket not a new head.
Did they actually look at the vehicle? do you know what exactly they did? Did they remove any components or just start it up and listen? Did they give you a written quote and list of things they looked at and what they found? If so can you post it?
They are supposed to be super reputable. They ran codes and all the paperwork says is what the original post says , it reads like there’s some visual inspection that took place… for$140 diagnosis I sure would like to think so. I’ll take your advice though and see if I can pull the valve cover and have a look ( googling valve cover removal now)
 

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They are supposed to be super reputable. They ran codes and all the paperwork says is what the original post says , it reads like there’s some visual inspection that took place… for$140 diagnosis I sure would like to think so. I’ll take your advice though and see if I can pull the valve cover and have a look ( googling valve cover removal now)
Don't remove it until you have a replacement valve cover gasket if you are going to run it, might be ok with the old one if just driving to the shop.
 

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I didn't read the replies except from the OP, so forgive me if I missed something already stated. I did read into the codes and the only way $6K in parts & labor makes sense to me is if the engine oil level and oil changes have been repeatedly neglected. But to that end; even if the diagnosis is accurate and there has been extreme fluid negligence, replacing the engine outright with a good used salvage yard unit might be a more sensible and affordable option. I looked at local options and the price depends on whether or not the engine comes with an oil cooler. If it does come with an oil cooler, they're asking $3000 on the low end. Many more are asking over $3500. The engines without an oil cooler can be found for $1600-$2400 with a few more crackpots asking a lot more. A shop will still charge a mark up on a used part like an engine, but if you can get a cheaper engine without the cooler, labor charges would probably drop considerably. I did some math in my head that would suggest they're trying to sell you over 20 hours of labor as is. Labor times vary amongst service info providers, but I suspect engine R&R labor would be in the 12-14 hour range. It might still be a lose/lose scenario, but you should explore all your options.

I recommend two things: Talk with your mom about the maintenance history. Then get a second opinion regardless.

Unless they opened up the top of the engine and were able to show you something like scored caps for the camshafts or a crack in the casting, I'm having a real hard time thinking they've done enough diagnostic work to know the head is actually bad. Did they show you any physical evidence of any kind to prove what they're selling you is legit? Did they try to show and educate you on scan tool data or scope data? Did they give you a printed copy of anything stating what their diagnosis cosisted of? Even the repair estimate might help tell us more of the story. How much time have they billed you for so far, just in diag labor? Hell, were you able to pick the van up right away after they called you with their news? I'm looking for any context clues to get a sense of whether or not Chevron is being honest with you.

Edit

I forgot to mention, even oil neglegence might not require an engine. Once in a while, an engine just needs to be topped off with a couple quarts of oil. You're dealing with a couple leaks; they may not be catastrophic yet.
 

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I advise against tearing anything apart!
So are saying that you want to get involved with the repair work on the vehicle?
First off, why are you removing the valve cover for? You haven't even tell us what is wrong with the vehicle, just those codes alone? Or because the Chervon station tells you that it needs timing chain replacement.
If you want to do it properly, tell us more about the vehicle.
There are certain diagnostic steps to be done before taking things apart.
The reason for that, those codes alone do not indicate that the engine has any mechanical issues, they simply meant the ECU wasn't seeing the changes in the camshafts' timing, when it commands them to advance. That could be cause by different reason, from low oil level, low oil pressure or some electrical malfunctions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I didn't read the replies except from the OP, so forgive me if I missed something already stated. I did read into the codes and the only way $6K in parts & labor makes sense to me is if the engine oil level and oil changes have been repeatedly neglected. But to that end; even if the diagnosis is accurate and there has been extreme fluid negligence, replacing the engine outright with a good used salvage yard unit might be a more sensible and affordable option. I looked at local options and the price depends on whether or not the engine comes with an oil cooler. If it does come with an oil cooler, they're asking $3000 on the low end. Many more are asking over $3500. The engines without an oil cooler can be found for $1600-$2400 with a few more crackpots asking a lot more. A shop will still charge a mark up on a used part like an engine, but if you can get a cheaper engine without the cooler, labor charges would probably drop considerably. I did some math in my head that would suggest they're trying to sell you over 20 hours of labor as is. Labor times vary amongst service info providers, but I suspect engine R&R labor would be in the 12-14 hour range. It might still be a lose/lose scenario, but you should explore all your options.

I recommend two things: Talk with your mom about the maintenance history. Then get a second opinion regardless.

Unless they opened up the top of the engine and were able to show you something like scored caps for the camshafts or a crack in the casting, I'm having a real hard time thinking they've done enough diagnostic work to know the head is actually bad. Did they show you any physical evidence of any kind to prove what they're selling you is legit? Did they try to show and educate you on scan tool data or scope data? Did they give you a printed copy of anything stating what their diagnosis cosisted of? Even the repair estimate might help tell us more of the story. How much time have they billed you for so far, just in diag labor? Hell, were you able to pick the van up right away after they called you with their news? I'm looking for any context clues to get a sense of whether or not Chevron is being honest with you.

Edit

I forgot to mention, even oil neglegence might not require an engine. Once in a while, an engine just needs to be topped off with a couple quarts of oil. You're dealing with a couple leaks; they may not be catastrophic yet.
Shes been good on oil changes, heck they just did one less than a month ago. She picked it up and drove home— they didn’t show her anything physically to my knowledge.

I have noticed it leaking coolant and oil towards front passenger side,, which leads me to believe timing chain / water pump. Same happened to my tundra but I caught it early.

labor is like 2700 parts are around the same, so maybe not quite 6k.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I advise against tearing anything apart!
So are saying that you want to get involved with the repair work on the vehicle?
First off, why are you removing the valve cover for? You haven't even tell us what is wrong with the vehicle, just those codes alone? Or because the Chervon station tells you that it needs timing chain replacement.
If you want to do it properly, tell us more about the vehicle.
There are certain diagnostic steps to be done before taking things apart.
The reason for that, those codes alone do not indicate that the engine has any mechanical issues, they simply meant the ECU wasn't seeing the changes in the camshafts' timing, when it commands them to advance. That could be cause by different reason, from low oil level, low oil pressure or some electrical malfunctions.
I have no business getting physically involved, she’s been good on maintenance, well oil changes. Hell they just did one a month ago.
I have noticed coolant and oil leaking from front passenger side for about 6 months… so yeah timing chain/ water pump… she’s neglected

I don’t know how that equates to almost 3k in parts, and almost 3k in labor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I have no business getting physically involved, she’s been good on maintenance, well oil changes. Hell they just did one a month ago.
I have noticed coolant and oil leaking from front passenger side for about 6 months… so yeah timing chain/ water pump… she’s neglected

I don’t know how that equates to almost 3k in parts, and almost 3k in labor. Also it’s 147k miles.
 
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