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Not so much about opinions as just informing the average joe that spending 300 bucks for a 5hp gain (to which they wont feel) is pointless.


IDK who Area47 and 2quick is or their experience, OEM exhausts are restrictive. Dyno runs have proven this time and time again. So not need to argue this mute point.
But as a guy who has built engines and a race car, im only speaking with my experience.
If you have dynos charts and flow analysis to prove that the 2GRFE stock exhaust is a bottleneck, please share. Otherwise, i would suggest you look up MKC ypipe .

Ps - I see ur a Honduh guy, and i can understand ur rationallization since the have a zillion parts for b16, b18, k20s, h22s, and even j30 engines hella cheap and readily available. As you can see by ur query of trd parts, thats not the same case in camryland where even a bolt on exhaust is hard to find. I've built and tined my own cars as well and while its fun to go custom everything, to most this is their DD so ppl prefer bolt ons (i know i do, especially living in CA with the smog nazis). Im not deliberating the merits of a a $300 air filter (i didn't buy one myself), just noting it as a viable option. I guess if the OP continues to be selective on what he notes as "available", i'll just supplement the info in my build thread.
 

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TN の がしょう
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Discussion Starter #24
Guys, for those who installed "Progress Tech Rear Anti-Sway Bar", did the handling improved a lot...? or barely noticeable. ? do you think worth the money?
A rear anti-sway bar will improve your handling quite a bit. 19mm is a bit small and sadly it's the only size available for our cars, but it's a huge improvement over the OEM 16mm. I've had cars with bigger sway bars and you do see big improvements.

You will notice the handling being more nimble but if you're only getting the rear sway bar, it's kind of moot if you don't include a FTB and some braces.

You have to look at these parts as a whole set in order to get the full potential out of them. Getting just one part for your whole suspension and calling it a day is kind of a waste.
 

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[quote1] FWD cars are known to understeer quite a bit, besides coilovers and lowering springs, you can also invest in some braces and sway bars in order to minimize understeer. Installing braces and sway bars will greatly decrease understeer, giving you more precise handling and control in turns and corners. This minimizes body roll and flexing of the chassis. If you want to be more technical, you can play with the toe-in, toe-out, cambers, and castors but we will get to that later. [/quote]

So please tell me exactly when VSC/TC let's me know that a bigger sway bar, strut bar, progressive springs, 20 inch wheels, sticky tires is going to limit my understeer?
 

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TN の がしょう
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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
FWD cars are known to understeer quite a bit, besides coilovers and lowering springs, you can also invest in some braces and sway bars in order to minimize understeer. Installing braces and sway bars will greatly decrease understeer, giving you more precise handling and control in turns and corners. This minimizes body roll and flexing of the chassis. If you want to be more technical, you can play with the toe-in, toe-out, cambers, and castors but we will get to that later.
So please tell me exactly when VSC/TC let's me know that a bigger sway bar, strut bar, progressive springs, 20 inch wheels, sticky tires is going to limit my understeer?
VSC/TC are for people who don't want to lose control of their car. Suspension upgrades and tires are for people who are willing to get into those situations where they might lose control but wants to minimize the chances of it. Remember, your car will understeer when you're entering a turn too fast. This is usually caused right after you brake hard and turning hard at the same time. This is most common for people who are turning at an intersection at a high rate of speed. Again, the VSC/TC won't kick in until it starts detecting wheel spin, in which will happen when you're already understeering, by then you already lost control of your car.

VSC/TC is more to prevent your wheels from losing traction/sliding while driving in bad conditions or hairy situations. These features only cuts off power to the wheels when you're still pressing the gas. It doesn't do jack to prevent you from entering into an understeer. Understeering is caused by human error and road conditions. VSC/TC only helps you minimize from getting into a worse situation, it does not prevent you from entering into one. You have to understand that VSC/TC is meant for wet conditions or bad road conditions with loose gravel. You will lose control no matter what if you're driving your car beyond the limits it can handle based on the wet conditions and road quality.

At most, your VSC/TC will minimize the amount of distance your car will understeer because it's cutting off the power to the wheels, therefore helping you gain control. Again, it will not decrease the chance of the car from understeering.

You can't compare having a VSC/TC with suspension upgrades. It's like comparing a cow with a lion. Totally different things.

Understeer is one of two scenarios when a car loses control during a turn, either a corner or a curve on the road. Oversteer is the other, which is common for all RWD cars.
Even RWD and AWD cars can understeer but all FWD cars has the highest chance of understeering.

This can be caused by several or all factors such as the weight ratio of the car, suspension design, speed, environment, tires, road conditions.

So how do all these suspension upgrades, wheels and tires fit in?

First of all, FTB helps prevent excess weight and body roll from transferring too much to one side of the car. This helps prevent one of your front tires from taking on too much weight, and the other tire lifting off, which increases the chance of losing grip for both tires as both tires does not have almost similar contact with the road. But as I stated before, you will also need to invest in a front sway bar and some lower bracing to achieve maximum performance.
FTB, front lower sway bar, and lower arm braces/chassis braces will decrease oversteer.

Wheels do not really matter much, but lighter wheels will help. Less weight is always a plus.

What about sway bars? As I stated before, they help stabilize your car from excess body roll. Less body roll will give you more control of your car in turns.
A thicker rear anti-roll sway bar will decrease your car from understeering.

Lowering springs? It lowers your car center of gravity, which equals to less body roll, but it's nothing compared to a good set of coilovers which will dramatically decrease body roll.

Tires are a big factor. Tires should be one of the first things to invest in when it comes to maximum grip and performance. The factory tires are crap and they tend to lose grip too easily. You want to get performance tires with wider tread to gain more grip. Thicker the tread, better it will perform but also take in the rubber compound and speed ratings in consideration as well.

Also, if you're dealing with a lot of wet weather, I highly recommend you invest in tires that are designed for wet driving. Summer performance tires are useless in wet conditions and will most likely increase your chances of your car understeering, even if you invested in all the suspension upgrades you can think of. If you have tires that is not designed for wet conditions, you're just asking to lose control.

You can argue that these upgrades are pointless, but these upgrades are more for dry conditions and track sessions. Even though it decreases the chances of you losing control of your car, it all comes down to you, if you think you need it or not.

Think of it as if you're buying a rifle. Most people have a standard one and are happy with it but you notice they sell a grenade launcher as an attachment. You don't really need it but you want to be prepared. Better safe than sorry.
 

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TN の がしょう
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Discussion Starter #29
What happened to the wheel post? It got deleted?
 

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Rubber Ducky
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Not so much about opinions as just informing the average joe that spending 300 bucks for a 5hp gain (to which they wont feel) is pointless.


IDK who Area47 and 2quick is or their experience, OEM exhausts are restrictive. Dyno runs have proven this time and time again. So not need to argue this mute point.
But as a guy who has built engines and a race car, im only speaking with my experience.
There is two choke points in the exhaust, one being the merge at the y-pipe in the front, and the other is the split in the rear on the v6 models. Already proven is the y-pipe gains over stock. Peak gains of 21whp in some areas, average of 14 whp. The K&N varies day to day. 5-7 whp average.

Testing back pressure in random places in the exhaust will show the weak points. There is more to just throwing on exhaust than bigger diameter is better. In this case, the 2.5 inch cat back is fine for diameter wise for day to day use. For track only, I would go larger as it spends more time in the higher rpm range and could be more useful for a higher peak hp rather than a nice average gain of hp and torque.

I am far from new to this game by any stretch. I build engines and do calibrations as a hobby. mostly when the kids are sleeping. :)
 

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Honda-Tech White Ops
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Well, Coming from Honda, Theres many different tests dont for 4 cyl headers on a dyno.

For all out top end, a 4-1 merge will net top gains. this is perfect for track conditions where upper RPMS is where the car will be performing.
For street, the 4-2-1 merge (where your Y merge is) is utilized to creat more low end torque. This has alot to do with getting the exhaust pulses just right so they pull spent exhaust from the combustion chamber. The TODA spec header is the clear dyno winner for this.

As long as the collector is in the right spot to utilize the pulses, anything behind it should be as free-flowing as possible. Mandrel bends with the least amount of bends possible.


Now theres some fan boys who think exhausts make power. This is totally false and used as a marketing tool for people who dont know better. If you look at any real race car, they have short or no exhausts at all. The quicker you can get exhaust gas out of the engine, the more power it makes. If the fanboys were corrcet, there would be rear exited exhausts on dragsters, Nascar, etc etc.


So it all depends on the application.

Now I have built a 2.0L Non vtec CRV engine and had better gains with a 3" mandrel exhaust over the 2.5". (also made around the same power as Honda's Type R 1.8L vtec engine, but thats a different story) The typical Camry owner isnt using their family ride on a track or even close to it for a street car. Its just the wrong platform to mod for such. Its way too heavy and underpowered (exept v6 but thats a whole different weight/power ratio conversation)

I was just pointing out that spending 300 bucks for 5hp isnt worth the cash spent. Your not going to feel it anyways.


Taken from Vegas Vacation movie " Tell you what, Give me half the money your going to lose, Ill kick you in the nuts and we'll call it a day"
 

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Hi Esoteric and Area 47,

I hope this isn't detracting from this thread, but I respect both of you for the work you've done with motors. Esoteric: about $300 and 5hp being money poorly spent, I agree completely. But Area 47, you got surprisingly big gains (something like several percent) in TQ and HP with your exhaust kit for the V-6, as the numbers you report imply. Any further thoughts about the value represented along these lines?

Thanks,
Mark
 

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TN の がしょう
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Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
Hi Xspeed,

May I suggest that you read this thread about sway bars:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/310-7th-generation-2012/749570-sway-bar-options-7th-gen-camry-s.html

The upshot of this is that even with a 23-mm dia rear sway bar, and with a V-6 motor up front, the car still (slightly) understeers. Also, concerning a front strut brace, the impact on handling should be in the noise.

Best,
Mark
This is a given. I didn't say it will absolutely get rid of understeer. It will decrease the chances of it. All cars understeers at certain point. Not equally.
Everything in moderation, but like you have mentioned, Toyota engineered the brackets to handle 16mm bars. Simply replacing the braces with a more robust end links and brackets will help that. Only problem is finding a good quality one.

FWD will always understeer, but you can always decrease the chances of understeering too much. It's better to understeer a little than too much.


Regarding the FTB, I don't understand when you state the "impact on the handling should be the noise." Please be more specific what you mean.

No where did I say installing the FTB alone will dramatically increase handling. I mentioned with a combination of a lower sway bar and rear sway, will it work well together.

True, the FTB is more for aesthetics purposes, but it does lessen uneven torsional rolls. Regarding the rigidity of it, I staunchly believe a one piece is best compared to one that are multiple pieces and I do agree that no matter how thick the bar, or structured it is, a simple one piece will do the trick, that is why I suggested the UR FTB.

I do believe I forgot to mention that having a thicker rear sway bar matched with a similar sized front is handling suicide. Having a thinner lower front sway bar than the rear will help with understeer a bit, giving it a more balanced corning ability. Having a 22mm front and 19mm rear might be the max anyone should go for with the Camry.

Thanks for the info.
 

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Honda-Tech White Ops
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Hi Esoteric and Area 47,

I hope this isn't detracting from this thread, but I respect both of you for the work you've done with motors. Esoteric: about $300 and 5hp being money poorly spent, I agree completely. But Area 47, you got surprisingly big gains (something like several percent) in TQ and HP with your exhaust kit for the V-6, as the numbers you report imply. Any further thoughts about the value represented along these lines?

Thanks,
Mark
 

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Hi Xspeed,

Probably the best thing you can do if you are of a mathematical bent is to get a copy of Racing Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken and Milliken. Here's a link:

http://www.abebooks.com/Race-Vehicle-Dynamics-R146-William-Milliken/16872140097/bd?cm_mmc=gmc-_-gmc-_-PLA-_-v01&product=COM9781560915263USED

In it they speak of things like roll axis inclination and yaw dampening.

An FWD doesn't have to understeer, but the greater the fraction of the vehicle's weight on the front axle, the likelier it is to do this. But even a front-heavy design can be made to oversteer.

About the Front Tower Brace and "handling impact is in the noise," I mean that the effect it will have on the car's handling (NVH aside for the time being,) is likely to be too small to be statistically significantly discernible from other uncontrolled factors that may impact handling, such as tire inflation, tread wear pattern, etc. If you read the thread for which I provided a link, I go into the reasons why. Basically all that an FTB does is take a car chassis that's already a fairly good approximation of a rigid body, and make it slightly more rigid. That's the good part. The bad part is that it adds a bit of mass high and forward in the chassis, which is not a good place to put it.

The point is that an FTB, whether used in isolation or added to sway bars, will do nothing to change the car's natural propensity to understeer.

This statement:
I do believe I forgot to mention that having a thicker rear sway bar matched with a similar sized front is handling suicide. Having a thinner lower front sway bar than the rear will help with understeer a bit, giving it a more balanced corning ability. Having a 22mm front and 19mm rear might be the max anyone should go for with the Camry.
Is misleading. The stiffness of a sway bar goes as the fourth power of its torsional bar diameter, and the inverse square of its swing-arm length. So bar diameter alone is not the sole determinant of sway bar rolling stiffness. Further, vertical spring stiffness enters the equation too as it relates to the relative LVWT's (Lateral Vehicle Weight Transfer) between front and rear axles, and how tire slip angle is affected, while turning. It is after all, how tire slip angle is affected at all four corners, plus any "built-in" suspension steering effects, that determine whether a car will understeer or oversteer, or even migrate (deterministically) between the two.

Now you're absolutely right to warn people not to go so large in rear bar diameter that the car gets into oversteer, since oversteer, especially at higher speeds, can be dangerous. But all my testing so far on an otherwise stock XLE shows that the 23mm-dia rear bar (which has a little more than double the roll stiffness of a 19mm-bar,) still understeers under all known conditions.

Best,
Mark
 
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