Usually good to sit the old one next to the new one and compare before u put it in, ther suppose to be stiff, ring doesnt matter
Long (passenger side) CV axle repeatedly hyperextends and pulls apart at the inner joint on a hard left turn.
CAR: 2004 5 spd Matrix. Recently, on a slow speed, hard left turn, my CV axle (a fairly new passenger side axle (made by FVP and sold by rock auto) separated at the inner joint, it only had ~200 miles on the new part. I was stranded and I required a tow home. I thought the motor mounts were bad and were allowing too much side movement so, I replaced all four. The old mounts were in terrible shape.
After some on-line reading I learned that some aftermarket axles are sometimes the wrong length. So, I replaced the FVP axle with a 'NAPA premium axle', NAPA advertises that their axles are the correct part and very close to OEM specs on their website.
A few hours ago on a slow speed hard left turn (all the way against the steering stop) the new NAPA axle pulled apart. Stranded again. Same slow speed turn with the steering in a hard left position, with only 100 miles on the NAPA axle
(1) I recently rebuilt the whole front end. I noticed that the new tie rod ends are very stiff. Too stiff? maybe they don't move easily enough and allow hyper-extension of the CV joint?
(2) There is a new steering knuckle from the front end rebuild. Could it be machined incorrectly? Too deep or not deep enough where the axle goes through the knuckle?
(3) There is an ABS ring on the axles. I don't have ABS. The ring does not seem to obstruct anything but it might?
HELP!!!!! these tow bills are mounting up! Has anyone experienced these problems? What is causing this?
After some on-line reading I learned that some aftermarket axles are sometimes the wrong length. So, I replaced the FVP axle with a 'NAPA premium axle', NAPA advertises that their axles are the correct part and very close to OEM specs on their website.
A few hours ago on a slow speed hard left turn (all the way against the steering stop) the new NAPA axle pulled apart. Stranded again. Same slow speed turn with the steering in a hard left position, with only 100 miles on the NAPA axle
(1) I recently rebuilt the whole front end. I noticed that the new tie rod ends are very stiff. Too stiff? maybe they don't move easily enough and allow hyper-extension of the CV joint?
(2) There is a new steering knuckle from the front end rebuild. Could it be machined incorrectly? Too deep or not deep enough where the axle goes through the knuckle?
(3) There is an ABS ring on the axles. I don't have ABS. The ring does not seem to obstruct anything but it might?
HELP!!!!! these tow bills are mounting up! Has anyone experienced these problems? What is causing this?
1 - 20 of 63 Posts
Aftermarket are the worst fit. I don’t see a reason to get them. OEM only.
Did your car come with aftermarket or did you install it? Keep the original, if you still have it.
Does your 5 speed come with a intermediate shaft? Few came with them, some didn’t.
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Did your car come with aftermarket or did you install it? Keep the original, if you still have it.
Does your 5 speed come with a intermediate shaft? Few came with them, some didn’t.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you have aftermarket knuckles then it could be a contributing factor as well. You would have to check that the wheels have full range of motion while turning the wheel without popping the CV.
Alignment is going to be essential as well to straighten everything because of the new parts will absolutely put you in the abyss. Guaranteed misaligned for one. But you should rule out any other possible issues before saying it as a alignment issue.
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Alignment is going to be essential as well to straighten everything because of the new parts will absolutely put you in the abyss. Guaranteed misaligned for one. But you should rule out any other possible issues before saying it as a alignment issue.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good suggestions above. I have never heard of a properly installed CV pulling apart if the rest of the suspension is properly installed and operating correctly. It would definitely be worth exploring further by turning sharp left and shutting the car off, then crawling under to see what is going on.
It is hard to tell from my vantage point across the internet, but I suspect one or more of the suspension components is loose. In the end, if you can't find anything, sometimes it is best to take it to a shop and pay an expert to fix it right.
BTW I recently installed an aftermarket pass side CV (Import Direct from O'Reilly) on my Matrix and it works well. I don't expect it to last as long as the OEM, but I don't expect the car to last 18 more years, either. Besides, the axle job is pretty easy on these cars so i can reinstall in five or so years if necessary!
It is hard to tell from my vantage point across the internet, but I suspect one or more of the suspension components is loose. In the end, if you can't find anything, sometimes it is best to take it to a shop and pay an expert to fix it right.
BTW I recently installed an aftermarket pass side CV (Import Direct from O'Reilly) on my Matrix and it works well. I don't expect it to last as long as the OEM, but I don't expect the car to last 18 more years, either. Besides, the axle job is pretty easy on these cars so i can reinstall in five or so years if necessary!
Thanks for the helpful comments above, here are some responses: (1) Unfortunately the OEM new part price is $500-$600. Aftermarket was $43 (FVP) and $120 (Napa). It is a 2004 Matrix with 200k miles, I only drive about 1000 miles per year, so OEM is not a reasonable expense for me. (2) It does not seem possible to accurately measure a CV axle length, when the part is out of the car because the length is 'extensible'. It is not as simple as putting a tape measure on it 'out of the box'. (EDIT: Actually you can compress the axle firmly, make sure it is straight and scribe marks on a benchtop at either end of the axle; this method can accurately measure the overall compressed length; 'OCL, you can also measure the 'FCL, see later posts in this string). I no longer have the old Toyota OEM axle. The 'compressed' length only occurs when the axle nut is torqued to 150ft/lbs and the circlip on the inner shaft has clipped into a groove and the steering is straight ahead. (3) If I jack the car and steer lock to lock it is not under a load so it does not show any symptons (I tried that after the FVP axle replacement, everything seemed fine). By the way, the other FVP axle (on the driver's side) functions perfectly.
I did find an internet forum answer that slightly 'short' aftermarket axles on Tacomas were a problem. Anyone aware of the same issue on Matrix/Corolla?
Maybe try a good used OEM part from a junkyard?
If the aftermarket axles are too short can they be shimmed against the inner shoulder where they press against the hub? Anyone heard of this?
Before proceeding I need to be absolutely certain that the CV axle shaft length on the aftermarket shafts is the problem. Any way to check the length?
Any axle experts out there that can weigh in?
I did find an internet forum answer that slightly 'short' aftermarket axles on Tacomas were a problem. Anyone aware of the same issue on Matrix/Corolla?
Maybe try a good used OEM part from a junkyard?
If the aftermarket axles are too short can they be shimmed against the inner shoulder where they press against the hub? Anyone heard of this?
Before proceeding I need to be absolutely certain that the CV axle shaft length on the aftermarket shafts is the problem. Any way to check the length?
Any axle experts out there that can weigh in?
When you rebuilt the front end, did you remove the engine cradle bolts? did you replace the lower control arms and bushings? replace the struts?
Stand back and Look at the car from the front-- can you see if the front wheels are inline with the rear, or is the FR outboard of the RR?
Measure the F-R wheelbase on each side--are they equal?
Measure under the car front end cross-axis diagonal from bottom of steering knuckle joint to the trailing control arm bolt on the opposite side. Compare are these two diagonals equal or not?
Stand back and Look at the car from the front-- can you see if the front wheels are inline with the rear, or is the FR outboard of the RR?
Measure the F-R wheelbase on each side--are they equal?
Measure under the car front end cross-axis diagonal from bottom of steering knuckle joint to the trailing control arm bolt on the opposite side. Compare are these two diagonals equal or not?
Just a simple correction, the torque spec for the axle nut is 159 lb ft. I doubt that causes the issue you are facing but it is worth noting.
Also, which trans and driveline do you have...FWD or 4WD, auto or manual? And which NAPA axle model number? The auto and manual trans use slightly different length axles.
Edit: I see now that you have the 5spd.
Also, which trans and driveline do you have...FWD or 4WD, auto or manual? And which NAPA axle model number? The auto and manual trans use slightly different length axles.
Edit: I see now that you have the 5spd.
Thanks for the tips Kenny-bob. I did not replace the control arm bushings in the front end rebuild, I did replace the upper strut mount (not the coil spring or cartridge). I used the 'string' method to align the car after the rebuild, it did not pull or track badly before the FVP and NAPA axles both failed. Tires are wearing evenly (but only 200 miles on them) suggesting alignment is reasonably good. Are you suggesting that the control arm bushings are bad and are letting the passenger tire deflect too far outward on a left hand turn? If so, that might pull the inner joint apart?
Rmyoder: 250 ft lbs was a typo (I edited out the mistake), it was 150ft/lb. I know did not over tighten the axle nut because my torque wrench maxes out at 150. Thanks for catching that typo. I ordered the 5spd manual axle for both FVP and NAPA. They are clearly differentiated from the automatic axle by unique part numbers so I don't think the wrong part# is the problem.
I found a Tacoma posting with the same exact problem I experienced! He installed two aftermarket axles and both inner CV joints popped apart on 5mph hard left turns, his description of the failure is identical to mine. A poster concluded that the parts were manufactured incorrectly: "The issue in the prior person's case was there was actually a slight difference in the length of the axles they used to replace the failed axle. I believe this is also something that has led a bunch of people to failed axles very soon after replacing with brand new NON-OEM parts and the length discrepancy is likely the main issue."
Since Corolla/matrix 5 speeds are rare (less than 5% of sales) maybe it is taking a long time to uncover this problem for these cars?
Rmyoder: 250 ft lbs was a typo (I edited out the mistake), it was 150ft/lb. I know did not over tighten the axle nut because my torque wrench maxes out at 150. Thanks for catching that typo. I ordered the 5spd manual axle for both FVP and NAPA. They are clearly differentiated from the automatic axle by unique part numbers so I don't think the wrong part# is the problem.
I found a Tacoma posting with the same exact problem I experienced! He installed two aftermarket axles and both inner CV joints popped apart on 5mph hard left turns, his description of the failure is identical to mine. A poster concluded that the parts were manufactured incorrectly: "The issue in the prior person's case was there was actually a slight difference in the length of the axles they used to replace the failed axle. I believe this is also something that has led a bunch of people to failed axles very soon after replacing with brand new NON-OEM parts and the length discrepancy is likely the main issue."
Since Corolla/matrix 5 speeds are rare (less than 5% of sales) maybe it is taking a long time to uncover this problem for these cars?
Do you have the part # of said CV axles you have purchased and when you input your VIN into a official Toyota parts database what official part # do they spit out? I ask since that official part # will narrow down your list to the exact aftermarket part compatibility.
It seems a quick cursory search points out that Matrix of this vintage parts #s change based on the following determining factors seem to be:
Position of CV axle
ABS or no ABS
AT vs MT
AWD vs FWD
Rear Drum brakes
Rear Disc Brakes
Base Model; XR Model
It seems a quick cursory search points out that Matrix of this vintage parts #s change based on the following determining factors seem to be:
Position of CV axle
ABS or no ABS
AT vs MT
AWD vs FWD
Rear Drum brakes
Rear Disc Brakes
Base Model; XR Model
Hi jjabrahams. The Toyota part number using my VIN# was 4341002310. That number correctly crosses over to FVP TO8096 (rock auto) and NAPA 949743. Both axles (that failed) are described as fitting my car, a 2004 matrix with a 5spd manual.
Were they replaced under warranty at NAPA and RA? The joints are inferior since they collapsed so quickly.
That is the correct Toyota part number.
On my 2005 5spd the original shaft measures 29.1" from the inner dust shield to the outer dust shield (no ABS ring), when the axle is compressed by hand.
My aftermarket replacement shaft measures the same, but it is already installed so I can't tell exactly how far it is compressed. Interestingly, I notice that many of the aftermarket units overall compressed length is listed as 35-13/16 whereas reman units are listed as 36-1/8. I do not think this is a problem though because (at least on my aftermarket) the distance from the retainer ring to the end of the inner shaft was about 1/4 shorter than the Toyota unit. I can't imagine this causing it to pull out of the trans because the retainer would have to be dislodged first. However I am going to order another aftermarket and compare directly to my original. Stay tuned for pics in the next day or two.
On my 2005 5spd the original shaft measures 29.1" from the inner dust shield to the outer dust shield (no ABS ring), when the axle is compressed by hand.
My aftermarket replacement shaft measures the same, but it is already installed so I can't tell exactly how far it is compressed. Interestingly, I notice that many of the aftermarket units overall compressed length is listed as 35-13/16 whereas reman units are listed as 36-1/8. I do not think this is a problem though because (at least on my aftermarket) the distance from the retainer ring to the end of the inner shaft was about 1/4 shorter than the Toyota unit. I can't imagine this causing it to pull out of the trans because the retainer would have to be dislodged first. However I am going to order another aftermarket and compare directly to my original. Stay tuned for pics in the next day or two.
i think the location and style of the retainer ring is a most important feature to consider along with the extended length, the compressed length doesn't really provide any information to determine successful operation.
That is most likely why the OEM would work and the A/M are not aware of the necessary differences.
That is most likely why the OEM would work and the A/M are not aware of the necessary differences.
Did some digging:Hi jjabrahams. The Toyota part number using my VIN# was 4341002310. That number correctly crosses over to FVP TO8096 (rock auto) and NAPA 949743. Both axles (that failed) are described as fitting my car, a 2004 matrix with a 5spd manual.
The Toyota part number entered into RA part number lookup tool, does not list the FVP as a compatible product.
The only parts that show with that part number are the following below. Each mfg has two models (one has the ABS ring the other one doesnt).
GSP NCV69588 36.1 ABS
GSP NCV10555 35.87
CARDONE 605223 36.0625
CARDONE 665224 36.0625 ABS
Compressed Length for these seem to be all over the place for each of those parts.
When reviewing the FVP product # and the NAPA product #, they appear to be the same (NAPA has FVP listed as mfg and the part number). CL is 35.71.
The mfgs seem to indicate that ABS ring should not be an issue, and even if it is, just remove the ring.
Maybe steering stops are worn outCAR: 2004 5 spd Matrix. Recently, on a slow speed, hard left turn, my CV axle (a fairly new passenger side axle (made by FVP and sold by rock auto) separated at the inner joint, it only had ~200 miles on the new part. I was stranded and I required a tow home. I thought the motor mounts were bad and were allowing too much side movement so, I replaced all four. The old mounts were in terrible shape.
After some on-line reading I learned that some aftermarket axles are sometimes the wrong length. So, I replaced the FVP axle with a 'NAPA premium axle', NAPA advertises that their axles are the correct part and very close to OEM specs on their website.
A few hours ago on a slow speed hard left turn (all the way against the steering stop) the new NAPA axle pulled apart. Stranded again. Same slow speed turn with the steering in a hard left position, with only 100 miles on the NAPA axle
(1) I recently rebuilt the whole front end. I noticed that the new tie rod ends are very stiff. Too stiff? maybe they don't move easily enough and allow hyper-extension of the CV joint?
(2) There is a new steering knuckle from the front end rebuild. Could it be machined incorrectly? Too deep or not deep enough where the axle goes through the knuckle?
(3) There is an ABS ring on the axles. I don't have ABS. The ring does not seem to obstruct anything but it might?
HELP!!!!! these tow bills are mounting up! Has anyone experienced these problems? What is causing this?
Just a thought, but could the steering rack be adjusted off centered allowing more left turn than right? How many turns to lock in both directions? Just something else to check
Later wd
Later wd
jjabrahams: Thanks for the help! I am not sure what to buy now, maybe buy a 'Reman Cardone based on an OEM 917mm shaft' (see below)?
Wrenchdad: Steering wheel is centered and alignment seems OK so an 'off-centered rack' is probably not the issue.
75aces: Unfortunately, although a warranty is in effect at Rock Auto,I would have to pay back and forth shipping for a new part, it would eat up most of the $43. Further, I am now leery of both the FVP and NAPA part. NAPA was a local buy. But, both FVP and NAPA parts are 907mm long and GSP and Cardones are 917mm. My failed NAPA axles are both on the short end of the scale (907mm), is that simple fact causing the failure? I will ask both companies for a refund based upon "too short an axle shaft is causing the problem", we will see what they say.
Partschanger2: Please clarify. Where are the steering stops? Can they be replaced?
kenny-bob: The circlip (retainer ring) did not fail I had to hammer out the FVP shaft just like always, the inner joint pulled apart. I have not checked the NAPA axle, the car is being towed to my house.
rmyoder: No, the axle did not pull out of the tranny, the 'tripod discs' on the inner joint seemed to have traveled too far in their slots and dislocated the inner joint on the FVP axle. Axle length is too short?
The consensus in this string is that compressed shaft length is not critical? I am not so sure. Doesn't an ~10mm difference seem like a lot? The Tacoma guy (see my Post#9) was convinced 'too short' was the problem.
Thanks to all for the help. I will post more info when I pull the NAPA axle.
Wrenchdad: Steering wheel is centered and alignment seems OK so an 'off-centered rack' is probably not the issue.
75aces: Unfortunately, although a warranty is in effect at Rock Auto,I would have to pay back and forth shipping for a new part, it would eat up most of the $43. Further, I am now leery of both the FVP and NAPA part. NAPA was a local buy. But, both FVP and NAPA parts are 907mm long and GSP and Cardones are 917mm. My failed NAPA axles are both on the short end of the scale (907mm), is that simple fact causing the failure? I will ask both companies for a refund based upon "too short an axle shaft is causing the problem", we will see what they say.
Partschanger2: Please clarify. Where are the steering stops? Can they be replaced?
kenny-bob: The circlip (retainer ring) did not fail I had to hammer out the FVP shaft just like always, the inner joint pulled apart. I have not checked the NAPA axle, the car is being towed to my house.
rmyoder: No, the axle did not pull out of the tranny, the 'tripod discs' on the inner joint seemed to have traveled too far in their slots and dislocated the inner joint on the FVP axle. Axle length is too short?
The consensus in this string is that compressed shaft length is not critical? I am not so sure. Doesn't an ~10mm difference seem like a lot? The Tacoma guy (see my Post#9) was convinced 'too short' was the problem.
Thanks to all for the help. I will post more info when I pull the NAPA axle.
i thought it pulled out of the differential at the ring joint, but now i see it was the tripod that failed due to too short an axle.
The compressed length allows for ease of installation without removing the knuckle, but the extended length that it can operate without pulling the ring or the tripod is the critical dimension to solve your issue. 10mm difference in extended length would be significant. It would sure help if someone had a used OEM and could get a measurement of both compressed and extended.
The compressed length allows for ease of installation without removing the knuckle, but the extended length that it can operate without pulling the ring or the tripod is the critical dimension to solve your issue. 10mm difference in extended length would be significant. It would sure help if someone had a used OEM and could get a measurement of both compressed and extended.
kenny-bob: The inner joint plunges in and out on 3 'tripod' discs (containing needle bearings) running in slots stamped in a steel can full of grease, that plunge distance is what you are referring to. I just figured out how to very accurately measure the 'overall compressed length' of a CV axle; I 'scribed' it. I stood the part up vertically (on my workbench against a garage wall) and tapped the top with my hand (to make the tripod disks travel in their slots all the way down to the end). I straightened both ends (they move easily but hold still once set). I marked the top of the axle against the garage wall with a pencil, using a thin ruler held horizontally against the top to reach the wall. I then placed a steel metric ruler exactly where the bottom of the axle stood on the bench and, I read the pencil mark. The failed FVP axle is 90.7cm, exactly as described on Rock Auto. So, it is indeed 10mm shorter than the Cardone and GSP axles since they are 91.7cm. I will measure the NAPA axle when it comes out. Is measuring the 'fully extended' length possible? Won't the inner tripod disks drop out of the slots in the 'can' when you pull? I guess you could do it if the boot is off and you can see the end of the slots?
rmyoder: Are you replacing an axle? Do you have an OEM axle out that you can measure on your 2005 manual 5sp Matrix? It occurred to me that the true 'functional compressed length' (FCL) is from the center of the circlip (retainer ring) to the shoulder on the outboard joint (where it contacts the hub). A manufacturer could add threads at the end of the spline but still retain a perfect FCL for that car. If manufacturers published an FCL there might be irrelevant discrepancies in the overall length, for example, you could add threads at the end of the outboard spline but that would be of no consequence to the FCL even though the overall length would change.
I am not sure what to do. I might have installed defective 'short axles' twice, but, could something else still be causing the dislocated joint? How do I test that the wheel is not going too far outboard on a hard left turn?
Two strandings and $240 in towing bills. I am baffled. Sigh.
rmyoder: Are you replacing an axle? Do you have an OEM axle out that you can measure on your 2005 manual 5sp Matrix? It occurred to me that the true 'functional compressed length' (FCL) is from the center of the circlip (retainer ring) to the shoulder on the outboard joint (where it contacts the hub). A manufacturer could add threads at the end of the spline but still retain a perfect FCL for that car. If manufacturers published an FCL there might be irrelevant discrepancies in the overall length, for example, you could add threads at the end of the outboard spline but that would be of no consequence to the FCL even though the overall length would change.
I am not sure what to do. I might have installed defective 'short axles' twice, but, could something else still be causing the dislocated joint? How do I test that the wheel is not going too far outboard on a hard left turn?
Two strandings and $240 in towing bills. I am baffled. Sigh.
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