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There are thousands of lawsuits going on for every manufacturer. Most are frivolous. But there is a problem with Toyota engines consuming oil. I should email them and tell them its not the rings, its bad piston designs on more than one model.

98-02 1ZZ-FE - clogged pistion oil returns that are too small too few
02-06 2AZ-FE - same problem as the 98-02 1ZZ-FE
07-09 2AZ-FE - changed the piston design to get rid of the clogging problem creating a new set of problems requiring yet another piston design.

In all 3 cases its the piston itself.
 

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2007 TCH owner
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341 Posts
Don't stick with one dealership, try other dealerships. I went to one of the dealership closest to my work and they always say that it's normal. I went to the other one that's close to my house and they say it's definitely consuming oil and took the job under warranty (extended warranty - I'm way beyond the manufacturers). It did take me several months to prove it.
 

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2007 engine shuddered/rough upon start up

has about 75K miles and always maintained by dealer

it was about 70 degrees out, started it up and the engine ran really rough...almost like the timing was off or something.
it shuddered pretty badly.

so we shut it off.

a few minutes later, started it again, and same thing...but this time let it run for about 15 seconds...at which point it smoothed out and ran fine.

This car is my inlaws, and they were up visiting over thanksgiving...
I scanned for codes with my reader and found nothing.

so we took it too the dealer (on the third start up it was fine)

they could find nothing wrong and sent us home.

It has been started a few times so far since and the problem has not cropped up again.

I looked around in the engine bay and found a small amount of coolant puddling on a shelf of the water pump (or close to it anyways)
the coolant reserve tank was about mid level between full and low.

but I've never known a bad or going bad water pump to do that to an engine...


thoughts?
 

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2008 TCH
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695 Posts
has about 75K miles and always maintained by dealer

it was about 70 degrees out, started it up and the engine ran really rough...almost like the timing was off or something.
it shuddered pretty badly.

so we shut it off.

a few minutes later, started it again, and same thing...but this time let it run for about 15 seconds...at which point it smoothed out and ran fine.

This car is my inlaws, and they were up visiting over thanksgiving...
I scanned for codes with my reader and found nothing.

so we took it too the dealer (on the third start up it was fine)

they could find nothing wrong and sent us home.

It has been started a few times so far since and the problem has not cropped up again.

I looked around in the engine bay and found a small amount of coolant puddling on a shelf of the water pump (or close to it anyways)
the coolant reserve tank was about mid level between full and low.

but I've never known a bad or going bad water pump to do that to an engine...


thoughts?
Mine has done that a few times as well. 3 that I can remember. I found that the last two times it happened, I had moved the car (cold) in the driveway to accommodate some guests for a party in our driveway. The next morning on start up, it felt like the engine was coming apart, ran horrible, etc... Upon shut off and restart and about 10 seconds of running rough, it would smooth out.

I could not duplicate it for the dealer either. Now I make the sure the car is fully warmed up before shutting it off. It has not done it in about 40,000 miles now, so I assume all is OK.
 

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The older TCH models (pre 2010) were susceptible to water pump seal leaks. Probably unrelated to the rough engine. There have been some issues with rough running caused by a defective variable intake valve timing mechanism. However it only lasts for a few seconds.

Rough running is probably a dealer issue to resolve. If you are a do it yourselfer, I recall there are instructions on how to change the water pump on the greenhybrid forum.
 

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Yep, same here. Mine did it to me maybe twice. It does sound like it's falling apart and several folks around here experienced same.
No one really knows why. It's not persistent and appears to go away by itself. No one reported any major disaster following.
My opinion is, all the gears in engine and HSD simply mulalign once in a while causing this. As she does not really have starter, it has to be all perfectly aligned in all the worm gears involved.
She does not have hydraulic lifters to blame it on low oil pressure.
I'd say, simply join the club. Take it easy and keep driving.
 

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Hybrids: Rav4 & Camry
2016 RAV4 Hybrid Ltd
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16 Posts
I've also had this 3 or 4 times in my '09 (essentially the same as an '07 - we have one of those too!). I, too, have read of others reporting the same problem. No lasting effects. Hasn't happened in a long time, though.
 

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Mine has done that a few times as well. 3 that I can remember. I found that the last two times it happened, I had moved the car (cold) in the driveway to accommodate some guests for a party in our driveway. The next morning on start up, it felt like the engine was coming apart, ran horrible, etc... Upon shut off and restart and about 10 seconds of running rough, it would smooth out.

I could not duplicate it for the dealer either. Now I make the sure the car is fully warmed up before shutting it off. It has not done it in about 40,000 miles now, so I assume all is OK.
Snook, I think you got it.
I posted in this thread yesterday, bluh bluh, and guess what - I had that shudder this morning!!'
And guess what I did yesterday? I moved her a little bit, back and for, inside garage, to fit better onto my lift, as I was installing studdies on the front. Couple feet truly.
Boom!! Cold start in the morning (45 inside garage) and there it goes, entire car shaking in earthquake. I just let it run, and she calmed down in about 5-6 seconds, picked up, and took me to Seattle (30 miles) without a glitch.
So indeed, now I have tendency to believe that this back-for dance does something to HSD that results in shudder at start up.
 

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2012 Camry Hybrid
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When I drove my '07 TCH for 5 years I also had the engine shudder or rough idle for up to 10 seconds. I had this happen 2 or 3 times a year for the 5 years. I was also using a top-tier gas in my car so gas quality was not the problem. Many have reported this in the forms so it must be a common problem sometimes as first day startup.

I traded up to the '12 TCH just over a year ago and the problem seems to be fixed on the new models.
 

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2008 TCH
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Snook, I think you got it.
I posted in this thread yesterday, bluh bluh, and guess what - I had that shudder this morning!!'
And guess what I did yesterday? I moved her a little bit, back and for, inside garage, to fit better onto my lift, as I was installing studdies on the front. Couple feet truly.
Boom!! Cold start in the morning (45 inside garage) and there it goes, entire car shaking in earthquake. I just let it run, and she calmed down in about 5-6 seconds, picked up, and took me to Seattle (30 miles) without a glitch.
So indeed, now I have tendency to believe that this back-for dance does something to HSD that results in shudder at start up.
Good to hear I am not the only one with this particular issue! That is EXACTLY the way it happened to me the last 2 times.

Ever since I made sure she is warm on shut down... Never had an issue since.

Thanks for posting!
 

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Good to hear I am not the only one with this particular issue! That is EXACTLY the way it happened to me the last 2 times.

Ever since I made sure she is warm on shut down... Never had an issue since.

Thanks for posting!
I at some pint had a habit of not taking off, until engine starts. Or there will some sort of a shake. So I'd press Start button, get green, and sit and wait for about ten seconds, for ICE to kick in. With that, there was never a shudder.
But I abandoned this and she was doing quite well. Yet, after what I described... But this is truly odd situation for me, I seldom manage her like this.
Peculiarity is, we may actually know how to reproduce this shudder. I think, nothing can be done though, it must be one of those unexpected drawbacks of HSD design.
That's why I want hybrid with motor wheels. No iffing transmissions of any kind.
 

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Well, well.... I got that shake this morning on my 2013 when I left for work... last action prior to that is when I moved the car slightly (20 feet backward, then 20 feet forward) the day before. The engine did run for a few seconds (10 sec?) while I was doing this.
It ran really rough for 10-15 seconds or so this morning, and then everything was smooth. I wonder if something doesn't get reinitialized properly in the engine fuel management after the car barely gets moved. It feels like a choke problem.

Yves
 

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Ours also did it today. Yesterday my wife had backed it out of the garage and then parked in the driveway where it sat all night. As bad as it ran, I expected the check engine light to be on.
Our Caravan also doesn't like a very short start in cold weather. The only difference is that it doesn't want to even start, much less run roughly.
 

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'13 TAH & '10 FJC
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Well, well.... I got that shake this morning on my 2013 when I left for work... last action prior to that is when I moved the car slightly (20 feet backward, then 20 feet forward) the day before. The engine did run for a few seconds (10 sec?) while I was doing this.
It ran really rough for 10-15 seconds or so this morning, and then everything was smooth. I wonder if something doesn't get reinitialized properly in the engine fuel management after the car barely gets moved. It feels like a choke problem.

Yves
A mechanic told me that Atkinson cycle engines are more prone to this under these circumstances (short start-stop moves, then non-op for a period before re-starting). The timing of the valves opening and closing creates a perfect storm allowing this to happen, versus a 'regular' cycle ICE.
 

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A mechanic told me that Atkinson cycle engines are more prone to this under these circumstances (short start-stop moves, then non-op for a period before re-starting). The timing of the valves opening and closing creates a perfect storm allowing this to happen, versus a 'regular' cycle ICE.
I'd sure like to see a plausible explanation from a mechanical standpoint, but since the valve timing is somewhat controlled by software, I find it hard to believe. If something's behavior is affected by previous actions, it means that the system did not return to a stable state between the 2 events. It could be the valve/timing chain position, but then I'd have to question the engine shutdown procedure, and it would not explain it happening when the car gets moved on battery power alone.

I'm thinking (I'm totally arm waving here, btw) it has to do with the air/fuel ratio setting (which has to be ready to fire the engine) not getting cleared and reset, or a dumping of fuel in the cylinders that needs to burn off on the next cycle. On my "roughness" episode, the engine behaved exactly like an engine running too rich or too lean.

Yves
 

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I'd sure like to see a plausible explanation from a mechanical standpoint, but since the valve timing is somewhat controlled by software, I find it hard to believe. If something's behavior is affected by previous actions, it means that the system did not return to a stable state between the 2 events. It could be the valve/timing chain position, but then I'd have to question the engine shutdown procedure, and it would not explain it happening when the car gets moved on battery power alone.

I'm thinking (I'm totally arm waving here, btw) it has to do with the air/fuel ratio setting (which has to be ready to fire the engine) not getting cleared and reset, or a dumping of fuel in the cylinders that needs to burn off on the next cycle. On my "roughness" episode, the engine behaved exactly like an engine running too rich or too lean.

Yves
I certainly don't disagree. I've had it on my hybrid under these circumstances too, and it does seem like the engine is rough because there is too much fuel (temporarily) in the cylinder(s) when you eventually re-start, which then eventually burns off and then there is no issue. It can happen on a regular non-Atkinson ICE motor, too; however, it seems to be something that is more prone to happen in the Atkinson motor, versus the others...and it's not just our motor as I've seen it on Prii and a friends Honda hybrid. It also could be that we don't truly control the throttle on the hybrids and on a conventional motor would 'rev it up' a little to clear it out....which is certainly what I do with my Harleys....which prevents this from happening on re-start. Not as big an issue with the newer FI Harleys; however, it was with the older carb models, which loved to keep dumping fuel into the cylinders at times, long after you would shut down.....:facepalm:

As to what the mechanic told me, he explained something similar to what we've discussed, and that was that the valve and cylinder cycle timing was not as conducive to clearing out the cylinders on shut-down, which may, as you have pointed out, be more of a software issue if any unused fuel is getting dumped into the cylinder and not being 'combusted'. I'm good with many mechanical basics; however, with this software controlling more and more of what our HSDs do (along with the eCVT control), it starts to get into the realm of 'waaaaaay over my head'.:D

Then, again, he may have just been giving me a line of bull....:rolleyes:
 

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If you are talking about the engine sounding like there are rocks rattling inside on a cold start it is not your engine at all making this noise. What you are hearing are the dampeners in the springs of the clutch plate rattling back and forth. I know it sounds like lower end noise but it is not. Normally this condition is caused by a misfire. Nothing really to worry about as it common.
 

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When I drove my '07 TCH for 5 years I also had the engine shudder or rough idle for up to 10 seconds. I had this happen 2 or 3 times a year for the 5 years. I was also using a top-tier gas in my car so gas quality was not the problem. Many have reported this in the forms so it must be a common problem sometimes as first day startup.

I traded up to the '12 TCH just over a year ago and the problem seems to be fixed on the new models.
I have a '12 TCH XLE and experienced this problem once, a couple of months ago. I do not recall whether or not I had used the car long enough to warm up the engine on the prior usage.
 

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same

I have experienced the same with my 12 camry hybrid. It happens when the car sits overnight and the gas engine starts. I now have 12,000 mi on the car and it has happened maybe 6 times. Two mornings in a row recently. It rattles and clatters and sounds like something is not getting oil. The last time it took maybe a minute to come out of it and then it runs normal. I plan on taking it in to the dealer. This should not happen on a new vehicle. Never ever had this happen on any vehicle I have owned.
 
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