Toyota Nation Forum banner

21 - 40 of 80 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
There is no paranoia. Some owners don't lease or trade in every few years. Current marketing, like everything in the USA, leans toward disposable products.... chew that bubblegum and spit it out... repeat as needed.

Some of us want and expect to keep the vehicle considerably longer than norms. We don't want "good enough" with our maintenance schedules, fluids/filters/parts used, or intervals. Some of us want exceptional.

Automakers can vote on SAE/API/ILSAC requirements, can request waivers or exceptions for certain performance aspects. So, when you dumb down a standard or are exempted from it with certain oils, do you really want to use it?

If the .1-.2% fuel economy is your goal, stick with the 0w16 oil. Plenty of choices out there regardless if it meets the never ending change of requirements constantly being voted on. My cars that require 0w20 and 5w20 get a full synthetic 5w30. If I were to buy a vehicle requirement 0w16, I'd step up to the grossly thick offensive 0w20 synthetics.

RC wasn't a requirement for 0w16 when it was released. RC was allegedly pushed by Toyota for their .1-.2% fuel economy improvements for CAFE. High moly oils also don't do too well with TEOST testing.... guess which oil test standards were allegedly lowered to give the high moly 0w16 and 0w20 an easier 'pass' concerning TEOST testing?

I've given up on SAE/ILSAC/API when emission components and MPG have taken a priority over engine longevity. "Almost as good" and "good enough" have been the engineering and lubrication goals. "Exceed the previous spec" just isn't on the drawing board anymore.

BTW, my Toyota is more advanced than a Ferrari and will be driven 10x as many miles as most Ferraris, and put thru more stress in my commute than any Ferrari sitting in a garage.
I find it bizzare because when 0w20 first came out, the crowd would say it is just water. Which was years ago. Now as time has gone by, has any of those engine have problems lasting to 300k miles with 0w20? I doubt it...

I know there are some vehicles out their that burns oil, but even with a thicker viscosity, it still burns oil regardless. It an internal problem not an oil viscosity problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,406 Posts
Yes... many engines have problems after 100k-150k but by then, its on the 2nd 3rd 4th owner... or on its way to the salvage yard.

You cant rebuild an engine with thicker oil. You can prevent the wear and crud and PREVENT the engine from turning into an oil burning headache. Too many fools wait until problems occur and get what they deserve. You reap what you sow. 100's of threads here over the years proves it.

Besides viscosity, interval is very important. So, my interval wont be 10k miles and I wont use a 0w16. And, I wont have the problems that everyone here will be whining about in 5 years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
I find it bizzare because when 0w20 first came out, the crowd would say it is just water. Which was years ago. Now as time has gone by, has any of those engine have problems lasting to 300k miles with 0w20? I doubt it...

I know there are some vehicles out their that burns oil, but even with a thicker viscosity, it still burns oil regardless. It an internal problem not an oil viscosity problem.
So according to your logic, in 2030, we will all be using 0W-10 motor oil, and everything will be fine because back in 2019 people were complaining that 0W-16 was like water.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
If using 0w16 doesn't help with engine longevity, assuming it will show wear with this oil. Would doing a few Used Oil Analysis show that the engine is wearing out? If so, what would we be looking for?
No, that is a myth. A UOA does not show engine wear, it is designed to determined when the oil needs to be changed. It is most often used in commercial fleet operations, where a small sample of vehicles has a UOA (due to the cost), and then the oil change interval of the entire fleet is determined.

Many people make false assumptions about engine wear based on certain metals in used oil. The fact is that some of the better oils hold trace amounts of metal in suspension better than others, because they have more detergents (not because of more engine wear).

The only way to determine engine wear, and whether it is a problem, is to do an engine tear-down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
I would like to see evidence showing that engine life is compromised by using 0w16. I know oil is a divisive topic.
It is almost impossible to provide that information. Likewise you can't show me evidence that it doesn't affect engine longevity.

Back when they allowed NASCAR racers to use different motor oil during qualifying than during the race (not sure if they changed those rules), they all used super-low viscosity oils during qualifying, because the engines only had to last about 10 laps (and usually about 4 laps in a row). Then they switched to higher viscosity oils for the race that lasted 500 miles. (Note that all these motor oils were super low viscosity compared to normal cars use, because they needed maximum HP and fuel economy, and they replaced the engines after each race).

Life in the real world is made up compromises. Ice Cream tastes better than broccoli, but broccoli is better for you. That is just the way the world works. Using very low viscosity oil has its advantages (which for some may outweigh its disadvantages), but it is not designed for maximum engine longevity. Wake up and smell the government regulation coming that are forcing these changes that are being imposed to cut down on energy use, green house gases, pollution, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
It is about gas mileage, and the environment. Thin oil causes less pumping losses. maybe a fraction of a mpg.
Change interval greatly decreases the millions of gallons that must be disposed somehow, somewhere.
I do not trust either reason, for myself. When I worked on cars for performance we used straight 30 weight heavy duty for v8 motors and changed it when it got dark! I trust 10w30 synthetic and 5000miles. I will use lighter oils as a compromise because I know engines and the oils have changed somewhat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
So according to your logic, in 2030, we will all be using 0W-10 motor oil, and everything will be fine because back in 2019 people were complaining that 0W-16 was like water.
When did 0w20 come out? How many years has it been? People are still using 0w20 with no problems, still last 300k miles no problem. But the real question is, how many miles you want it to last?

If manufacturers in the future designs cars to use 0w16, I dont see a reason why it wouldnt last. Only time will tell. So we can only base it off from 0w20. Which there isnt any problem. Unless you can prove it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
Yes... many engines have problems after 100k-150k but by then, its on the 2nd 3rd 4th owner... or on its way to the salvage yard.

You cant rebuild an engine with thicker oil. You can prevent the wear and crud and PREVENT the engine from turning into an oil burning headache. Too many fools wait until problems occur and get what they deserve. You reap what you sow. 100's of threads here over the years proves it.

Besides viscosity, interval is very important. So, my interval wont be 10k miles and I wont use a 0w16. And, I wont have the problems that everyone here will be whining about in 5 years.
Not sure which engines are you referring to. But with the hondas and toyotas that are using 0w20, they dont have any engine failures besides oil consumption issue. Which is not oil related but instead an internal issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
No, that is a myth. A UOA does not show engine wear, it is designed to determined when the oil needs to be changed. It is most often used in commercial fleet operations, where a small sample of vehicles has a UOA (due to the cost), and then the oil change interval of the entire fleet is determined.

Many people make false assumptions about engine wear based on certain metals in used oil. The fact is that some of the better oils hold trace amounts of metal in suspension better than others, because they have more detergents (not because of more engine wear).

The only way to determine engine wear, and whether it is a problem, is to do an engine tear-down.
Any car will wear over time. But the engine will not fail or brake because of an oil that is recommended by the manufacturer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
383 Posts
It is almost impossible to provide that information. Likewise you can't show me evidence that it doesn't affect engine longevity.
But you are the one making the claim, it's not on me to find evidence that disproves your claim.

If I said "Toyota usesSoftex in their interiors because it will disintegrate after 4 years and then you'll have to buy a new Toyota" you would expect me to provide evidence to support that claim. If I just said "well you can't prove that I'm wrong" you wouldn't take me seriously.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
Nice. I hate these god dam tests where people just put numbers without and reference as to what is good, better, best and without having to click through all the links.
That site tells it all in the chemical analysis side of things, also about why they all but force the manufacturers to label and color things like antifreeze the way they do. It really makes sense. Their objective is to keep choices simple enough for someone who is semi illiterate to understand while calling out the bad actors. Most of the bad ones are as expected gas station shelf oils you never heard of.
My one single gripe with that site is it incredibly hard to find something you’re looking for, especially the side by side oils contents analysis . Oh it’s there but you wouldn’t know it if you didn’t already. You need to DIG.
Anyways once you finally find it you’ll see the amounts of recommended chemical compositions as they relate to SAE requirements. That’s the bread n butter, screw the coerced information for the sake of a tiny increase in economy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
When did 0w20 come out? How many years has it been? People are still using 0w20 with no problems, still last 300k miles no problem. But the real question is, how many miles you want it to last?

If manufacturers in the future designs cars to use 0w16, I dont see a reason why it wouldnt last. Only time will tell. So we can only base it off from 0w20. Which there isnt any problem. Unless you can prove it.
I don't like the term "last." I am not just interested in how long an engine lasts, but how long it runs as well as it did when new.

I owned a 1998 Camry V6 for 11 years. That engine was known to have sludge problems and there was a class action lawsuit. My Camry only used a full synthetic 5W-30, even though synthetic was not required, and not only did I not have any sludge, my engine never used ANY oil (per dipstick reading) in-between oil changes of about 7,000 miles.

For my current 2009 Hyundai Genesis V6 I have also used a full synthetic 5W-30, even though synthetic was not required, and same results (no oil usage in-between oil changes after 11 years of ownership).

I am not interested in just an engine "lasting" but in it performing flawlessly for as long as possible.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with 0W-20, but I think 0W-16 is going too far. I am also saying that the motivation for using 0W-16 is purely energy savings, and not engine longevity.

Everyone can do what they want, I am just explaining what I believe are the facts, and what I would do about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
Not sure which engines are you referring to. But with the hondas and toyotas that are using 0w20, they dont have any engine failures besides oil consumption issue. Which is not oil related but instead an internal issue.
You seem to be fixated on the engine "failures" like we should not worry unless a engine fails.

Also, your distinction between an oil related problem and an "internal" issue makes no sense to me. I have no idea what you are talking about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
But you are the one making the claim, it's not on me to find evidence that disproves your claim.

If I said "Toyota usesSoftex in their interiors because it will disintegrate after 4 years and then you'll have to buy a new Toyota" you would expect me to provide evidence to support that claim. If I just said "well you can't prove that I'm wrong" you wouldn't take me seriously.
I made the claim that specifying 0W-16 was for purposes of improving fuel economy, and not in the interest in of maximum engine longevity. A careful reading of articles that discuss Toyota's use of 0W-16 would reveal to anyone but an imbecile that there motivation is driven by fuel economy, with the hope that engine longevity will remain acceptable (to them), even if not optimal. But Toyota and the other automakers have NO CHOICE as the weight of the government is coming crashing on them to have much higher fuel economy, especially if a Democrat wins the next presidential election (and they are in the lead in the polls).

As far as "if" you made any claims about Toyota softex disintegrating in order to sell more new cars, I am not saying they recommend 0W-16 to sell new Toyotas. IMO, they would prefer to recommend a higher viscosity (albeit a full synthetic), but the government regulations on fuel mileage is going to put them out of business if they cannot meet the fuel mileage targets coming soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
Any car will wear over time. But the engine will not fail or brake because of an oil that is recommended by the manufacturer.
I never said anything like that an engine will fail or "break" (not brake) because of an oil that is recommended by the manufacturer. I said that 0W-16 is recommended for improved fuel economy, most likely at the expense of some engine longevity (or optimal performance).

I have no problem with others using 0W-16 if they chose to do so. I am just saying what I would do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
738 Posts
I don't like the term "last." I am not just interested in how long an engine lasts, but how long it runs as well as it did when new.

I owned a 1998 Camry V6 for 11 years. That engine was known to have sludge problems and there was a class action lawsuit. My Camry only used a full synthetic 5W-30, even though synthetic was not required, and not only did I not have any sludge, my engine never used ANY oil (per dipstick reading) in-between oil changes of about 7,000 miles.

For my current 2009 Hyundai Genesis V6 I have also used a full synthetic 5W-30, even though synthetic was not required, and same results (no oil usage in-between oil changes after 11 years of ownership).

I am not interested in just an engine "lasting" but in it performing flawlessly for as long as possible.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with 0W-20, but I think 0W-16 is going too far. I am also saying that the motivation for using 0W-16 is purely energy savings, and not engine longevity.

Everyone can do what they want, I am just explaining what I believe are the facts, and what I would do about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
Yeah, and then it was firestones fault when the tires blew.
Years ago, the Ford Explorer was having "roll-over" and other emergency handling problems, so Ford fixed it by lowering the recommended tire pressure. It was too low for the Firestone tires with that much weight on them. The Firestone tires that were OEM'ed on the Explorer were pretty mediocre in terms of quality.
 
21 - 40 of 80 Posts
Top