Toyota Nation Forum banner

1 - 20 of 61 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Becuase of the recent slow job market, I took a break from my field of trainning, and was able to work at a very specialized rims and tire shop. I've learned much from my experience, and I'll share some of that here from time to time. Feel free to ask any related questions on this thread.

A common occurence I've seen with Toyota owners is putting non-Toyota OEM rims on their cars. I'd like to discourage everyone from doing so.

Few Toyota owners actually realize that we are special in having the option of putting on rims from other car manufacturers. For example, while it is possible to put a Honda rim on a Toyota, it is not possible to put a Toyota rim on a Honda. Here's why:

All VW vehicles with 4x100 bolt patterns have the hub size of 57.1 mm.

All Honda vehicles with 4x100 bolt patterns have the hub size of 56.1 mm.

All Toyota vehicles with 4x100 bolt patterns have the hub size of 54.1 mm.

In fact, Toyota hubs are amongst the smallest (all Toyota vehciles with 5x114.3 bolt patterns have the hub size of 60.1mm, compared with Honda's 64.1mm, Mazda's 67.1mm, etc.).

What this means is that while you can physically fit a Honda or VW rim on a Toyota with the same bolt pattern, you can't fit a Toyota rim on a Honda or VW because it will not go over the hub.

Although we have the choice to put on rims from other car manufacturers, it's actually a BAD choice. Because the bore of the non-Toyota rim will be bigger than the hub, the rim will not be centered on the hub, i.e. the wheel is not HUBCENTRIC. The full weight of the vehicle will rest solely on the wheel studs - which they were NOT designed for, and vibrations can result from the uneven load. Genearlly this is a BAD IDEA.

This situation is different with AFTERMARKET RIMS, which are manufactured to a few generally large bore sizes, and hubcentric rings are provided according to the vehicle application. On a 4X100 Toyota, the hub ring will have an outside diameter (OD) of the wheel's bore (e.g. 72mm) and an inside diameter (ID) of the hub (54.1mm). This makes the rims HUBCENTRIC.

The next logical question whether hubcentric rings can be similarly used to put, for example, an OEM VW rim on a Toyota. Yes, but rings with that OD and ID combination is not widely manufactured. They will have to be custom made, for a cost.

Another logical point flowing from this discussion is that when purchasing aftermarket rims that were previously installed on anything but a Toyota, you will need to get new hubcentric rings for proper fitment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
One user asked the VERY INTELLIGENT question about steelies for snow tires, etc..

There are different types, and you MUST know what to look for to be a smart consumer.

1. OEM steelies with their original bore size: These remain application specific, these are called "take-offs" because they are used when the vehicle is shipped from the factory and taken off by the dealer when those pretty OEM alloy rims are installed. Most shops do not like stocking these as they are the least versatile (i.e. only fit a limited % of cars), but THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT.

2. Modified OEM steelies: Some factories have equipment to modify the take-off OEM steelies above. They can do:
(a) drilling in an additional bolt pattern (i.e. putting 5x100 on a 5x114.3 rim);
(b) stamping out the original hub, thus making the wheel fit any car with the same bolt pattern;
(c) both (a) and (b).

(a) is fine, but YOU DON'T WANT (b) or (c).

3. Aftermarket steelies: These are not OEM. They are manufactured with a big hub bore, similar to 2(b) or 2(c). YOU DON'T WANT THESE EITHER.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
What you should know:

- as a self-proclaimed enthusiast, learn how to read tire sizes for Pete's sake!!

- as a self-proclaimed enthusiast, learn the general principles of plus sizing

- when buying new tires, an often overlooked factor is the depth of the new tread: most come with 10/32" of tread, but some can come with as little as 8/32"

- tires are like everything else in life: you can't have your cake and eat it too, specifically, no "performance tire" will have good treadwear, as this is against the laws of chemistry and physics

- NEVER drive hard on freshly installed tires: a lubricant is needed to install tires on rims, if you drive hard on them before the lubricant is fully dry (a few days), the tires will spin on the rims, causing your balancing to go to the shitters

- when taking a rim off a car, NEVER - I CAN'T SAY THIS ENOUGH - NEVER PUT YOUR HANDS BETWEEN THE SPOKES!!!! yes, they look like very convenient handles, but they're not! if the rims silps of the wheel studs or the hub, your wheel will drop on the rotor with you fingers in between, causing EXCRUCIATING PAIN and perhaps a trip to the hospital - YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY!! the correct way is to "bear hug" the outside of the tire and pull it straight out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,056 Posts
SpectraBlueCam said:

- when taking a rim off a car, NEVER - I CAN'T SAY THIS ENOUGH - NEVER PUT YOUR HANDS BETWEEN THE SPOKES!!!! yes, they look like very convenient handles, but they're not! if the rims silps of the wheel studs or the hub, your wheel will drop on the rotor with you fingers in between, causing EXCRUCIATING PAIN and perhaps a trip to the hospital - YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY!! the correct way is to "bear hug" the outside of the tire and pull it straight out.
wow... very useful information SBC. will come in very handy.

do you have any input on the use of spacers?


and is that last point from personal experience??? :D


-rayray
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
What you should know about "snow tires"

All season tires are scams. There is no such thing - no tire can be all things to all people at all times. The M+S (mud and snow) rating means NOTHING. All season tires are the worst of both worlds - middle of the road, marginal performance throughout the year.

Everyone who can afford a set should get "snow tires". Actually, "snow tires" is a bit of a misnomer given the state of technology involved in their production. New industry-speak now calls them "winter tires".

Snow tires are no longer the knobby, noisy things that were in the past. New winter tires have revolutionary tread design and rubber compounds that can pass for high performance summer tires if you don't look closely. They generally ride a lot smoother and quieter. Most new winter tires are directional.

Don't think for a second that because you live in an area where snow is minimal and/or is cleared away relatively quickly that you don't need winter tires. This is a very widely held misconception. While you're not trekking through snow all the time, don't forget that the temperature of the air and the roads remain frigid. This causes the rubber of your all-season tires to freeze and become hard, to the point that they will lose traction - even if the road is dry.

The key here is to understand that no rubber compound can stay soft and pliable within the broad temperature range throughout all climates - chemists have yet to create such rubber. This is why the rubber used in all-season tires cannot maintain adherance at low temperature ranges. By contrast, the rubber used in winter tires have been forumulated to have the properties of staying soft and pliable in extremely low temperatures (but of course, will be unsuitable in warmer weather).

So in short, the benefit of winter tires extend far beyond trekking through snow. This is precisely why they should be called WINTER TIRES, not snow tires. If a set of winter tires can help your vehicle stop 10 feet shorter and avoid a collision that costs $2000 to repair, those tires have paid for themselves over and over. They are an investment in your safety, and once you've had a set, you won't ever go back.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
RayRay:

Fortunately, I didn't find out about that tip from experience. Otherwise, I may not be able to type this thing. :lol:

As for spacers, 99% of them are not made properly. They are just thin pieces of metal with multiple bolt patterns drilled in. They have two main problems:

1. do not ensure sufficient lug-to-stud thread engagement; and
2. do not replicate the vehicle's hub for proper centering of the wheel.

Only use PROPER spacers that address these two problems.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Very Informative stuff

With the wealth of info here, may I query a few points...

hubcentric: is the diameter measure relating to bore readily stated on the wheels to confirm that rims are hubcentric or is it trial and error and physically measuring bores?

Would it be safe to assume that all Toyota 5 x 114.3 wheels are hubcentric to all Toyotas with the same bolt pattern? ie Given the large number of enthusiasts here doing this, would an IS300 rim be hubcentric to a gen 4 Camry since they are all OEM Toyota.

Tire Compounds: Does the effectiveness of tires lose their grip over time as tire compounds harden even though good tread may remain?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Unfortunately, the size of a wheel's center bore is not stated anywhere on the rim. For an OEM rim, you will have to refer to the hub size, and for an aftermarket rim, you will have to rely on a retailer for fitment information.

You are correct that ALL Toyotas with 5X114.3 bolt pattern have the same 60.1mm hub size. It's the offset that you need to worry about when fitting on rims from other Toyota/Lexus vehicles.

You are also correct that as rubber ages, they lose their ability to stay soft and pliable, even if there is lots of tread left. This is even the case for brand new tires that have been sitting around a warehouse for too long. That's why you should ask your tire retailer to show you the DOT number on the tire, which tells you when the tire was manufactured. Don't buy any tire that has sat for more than 5 years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
TOYOTA HUB SIZE INFORMATION

4x100 bolt pattern (all): 54.1mm
5x100 bolt pattern (all): 54.1mm
5x114.3 bolt pattern (all except trucks): 60.1mm

TOYOTA LUGNUTS INFORMATION

- all stock Toyota lugs are 21mm - i.e. the wrench in your roadside kit is 21mm, and you will be stuck with a flat tire if you have any other size lugs

- most OEM Toyota ALLOY rims use "shank" style lugs, which has a short, cylinder-like lower portion protruding from under a washer; the protruding portion fits into the matching size bolt holes, helping to center the wheel; using other types of lugs on these OEM ALLOYS is unsafe!

- all OEM Toyota STEEL wheels use cone seat lugs, usually open-ended, switch to closed-ended ones to prevent rusting of the wheel studs

- lugs should be tightened to approximately 80ft/lbs, in star shaped order
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Wow...that is some great information, SBC. I've bookmarked this page for reference.

Are the sizes for hubcentric rings for aftermarket wheels pretty much standard? That is, do they all have a bore size that is bigger than any hub out there and then make rings that will fit whatever application you need?

Also, what are "tuner" lug nuts? Are these the ones that are somewhat cone shaped and fit in a countersunk hole to help center the wheel on the hub? But in this case, the full weight is on the studs again, so it's not a good thing, right?

Sorry if the questions were pretty basic :hammer: , I'm still learning about all this stuff.

Thanks. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Awesome info

Again thank you for the wealth of detailed info.

Hubcentric

How do you obtain the bore size for other vehicles? Is that readily available via dealerships?

ie: Honda Accord, Integra RSX, most Lexus cars and the Jeep Liberty also have a 5 x 114.3 bolt pattern. Do you know the bore size for the Liberty?

Tire Compound Life vs Tread Life

I concur w/ you 100% on winter tires. Marketplace a Canadian CBC TV program did an excellent story last year on tires and basically said for the ice/snow conditions in the 'snow belt' areas in Canada, studded winter tires will give you better traction and half the stopping distance than unstudded winters which is further halfed in stopping distance over "all season" M/S tires. This info is backed by Cons Report in numerous issues (at least once every year).

'All season' is a marketing term. For all the money we spend on mods, the cost of winter tires is a solid investment even in the West.

Performance Tires (Z rated) are great for dry traction but do not compare w/ good 'all seasons' such as that of OEM Camrys.... Dunlop Sports, Michelin MxV4 Energy Plus etc in inclimate weather ... rain. Perfect example is the IS300 OEM vs Camry OEM tires regardless of FWD vs RWD.

Is the DOT dating easy to decipher or is it alpha numeric like car batteries?

As a side note, it can also be said for batteries, get the freshest most recent manufacture at a high inventory turnover retailer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
CRAMRY said:


Are the sizes for hubcentric rings for aftermarket wheels pretty much standard? That is, do they all have a bore size that is bigger than any hub out there and then make rings that will fit whatever application you need?

Also, what are "tuner" lug nuts? Are these the ones that are somewhat cone shaped and fit in a countersunk hole to help center the wheel on the hub? But in this case, the full weight is on the studs again, so it's not a good thing, right?

It would simplify things a LOT if there was only one bore size for aftermarket rims - i.e. the outside diameter (O.D.) of the hubcentric ring. However, it is not that way. Even from within one manufacturer (e.g. ASA, BBS, Enkei), there are different bore sizes. I had a personal horror story of having to replace a wheel (hydroplaned into curb on a rainy day), and even the EXACT SAME wheel was a different hub size because it was made at a different plant (it was the Enkei RP01, which were produced in both Thailand and Japan).

As for your question on tuner lugs, it's a bit misguided. Tuner lugs are like any other lugs in that their job is to hold the wheel on the studs. Whether the weight of the vehicle is on the studs has nothing to do with what kind of lugs are used. The weight of the vehicle is transferred to the wheels and tires via the hub and the bore of the wheel. If the wheels are not hubcentric, the wheel studs is where the weight is transferred.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Re: Awesome info

braun said:


How do you obtain the bore size for other vehicles? Is that readily available via dealerships?

ie: Honda Accord, Integra RSX, most Lexus cars and the Jeep Liberty also have a 5 x 114.3 bolt pattern. Do you know the bore size for the Liberty?

Is the DOT dating easy to decipher or is it alpha numeric like car batteries?

I found the information in aftermarket wheel company application lists, which tells us what aftermarket rings to order. The one from Fast Wheels is available online.
http://www.fastco.ca/Wheels Frames/Wheels_index.html

The cars you mentioned all have 5x114.3 bolt patterns, and have a hub bore larger than Toyota's 60.1mm, i.e. not hubcentric. If you check that list in detail, you will see that most OEMs have their specific bolt pattern with very few overlaps. TOYOTA IS THE ONLY MANUFACTURER WITH 5 X 114.3 BOLT PATTERN WHICH HAS THE 60.1MM HUB.

Here is the info you requested about how to read the DOT number:
http://www.michelinman.com/care/mich_owners/warranty_topics/warrantya.html

If you have a more code book, it even tells you which plant the tires were manufactured from.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Loads of good info here SpectraBlueCam. Thanks alot. I've got a question for ya. Could you explain in detail what wheel offset is. I know the general meaning but I want to hear it from you. I like to see a car with the wheels coming to the edge of the wheel arch but not too much that it touches. I also like to see the right tyre width on the rim. I find that this does alot for a car.

Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,602 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
IS200 said:
Could you explain in detail what wheel offset is. I know the general meaning but I want to hear it from you. I
Thanks.
Wheel offset, like you said, generally indicates how far a wheel sits relative to the strut housing on the inside and the wheel arches on the outside.

Let's start with the most basic example: 0 offset. 0 offset means that the mounting suface of the wheel (the back of the wheel where it contacts the brake rotor hat) is exactly half of the rim's width. On a 15x7 rim, this means that the wheel will be mounted on the car with 3.5" extending towards the strut housing on the inside, and 3.5" extending towards the wheel arch on the outside. Because the mounting surface is at the mid point of wheel's width, the spokes are often located closer to the middle and not along the outside edge of the rim. Hence, you have a "deep dish" rim.

Now, positive offset means that the mounting surface moves towards the outside of the rim by the number of the offset, denoted in mms. Using the same example, a +40mm offset means that the mouning surface is 40mm from the midpoint of the rim's width (i.e. 0 offset), i.e. it will be less deep dish. 40mm (the offset) plus 3.5" (the other half of the rim) will extend towards the the strut housing on the inside - this number is called "back spacing", and the rest of the rim (7" - 3.5" - 40mm) will extend towards the wheel arch on the inside.

Negative offset means the same thing, but the mouting surface is moved in the opposite direction, towards the inside.

Modern day Toyotas have POSITVE OFFSETS, in the area of 35-50mm, DEPENDING ON THE WIDTH OF THE RIM. Remember that since offset is determined in relation to the width of the rim, keeping the same offset doesn't guarantee proper fitment if the width's are different.

In terms of picking an offset of an aftermarket rim, your choice is fairly limited. Many owners want a deep dish rim, but don't realize that a low offset is required. Here's the general rule of thumb to rembmer:

The higer the offset, the more the rim will move towards the inside strut housing; if the offset is too high, the rim/tire cannot be mounted on the vehicle because it will bang into the strut housing

Conversely, the lower the offset, the more the rim will move towards the outside wheel arches; if the offset is too low, the tires will stick out from the wheel arches and rub over bumps.

I attempted to explain it in my own words since that's what you requested. But if I've failed to do claify the issue, here's more info and diagrams to help you out:

http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/offset.htm
 

·
In Ur MOM's Pants
Joined
·
2,882 Posts
excellent ...

now that i know my quest for rims will take much longer but result in excellent performance and safety

thank you SBC :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
1 - 20 of 61 Posts
Top