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Discussion Starter #1
After much back and forth with the dealer, they offered me a 2019 Avalon hybrid limited for 40,100 out the door.

Interestingly, they may offer 2000 loyalty cash back on the Avalon, but I don’t own a Camry or Avalon. But since my brother has a Camry, and I’m paying with cash anyway, I might as well have him get it for me. He lives in a different state, so not sure how to make the logistics work. This would make the price 38,100 out the door which I would take all day!

Alternatively, they offered me a 2020 limited hybrid for 41.5 otd. Which is not a terrible deal, but I feel like I can do better.

Thoughts on the deal? Tips for how to make the logistics work of my bro using his Camry to help me get that rebate.

Lastly, if they give me too much grief, I’m going to walk out and go buy a Tesla. So maybe it’s a win win.
 

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It maybe different in your state(s) but generally you'll going to be paying the sales tax twice, which on the Avalon alone would be expensive. IMO, all you need to do is have your brother "sell" you his Camry for a dollar, you need to title it in your name, then buy the Avalon, and then sell the Camry back to your brother.

Example, here in Wisconsin, we pay $195 for a new title, so you'd be paying that twice, plus the sales tax.

It can be lot's of manipulations for the Camry owner loyalty rebate, but depending on the state(s) you live in, and their specific titling / taxing laws/fees/rules, it could be worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Oh that is interesting. I had definitely not thought of that. So taxes here are estimated at 3000, so I would have to pay that twice?

It’s odd. Couldn’t my brother just “buy” the car remotely and have it titled in my in my name? As long as I am there to pay for the car completely in cash, what do they care?

Another thing I just thought of is if i buy my brother Camry, would he just sign the title? And I could then sign It back the next day? I don’t need to make it official and head down to the dmv?

It then occurs to me that I should wait for wait for 2020 Avalon to become eligible for the 3500 cash back. And then do this.

As it stands right now, they offered the 2019 Avalon hybrid limited for 40.1k out the door. Is that a good price? It doesn’t feel like it is seeing as how it’s only a 1400 less than the 2020. can I do better?
 

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When a car is purchased, a title is applied for/created with a specific person who bought the car named on it, as the leagal owner, and it's a legal document. Each time you change the ownership (signing it), it is changing hands, and each time the titled owner has to be changed, and it needs to be registered to the new owner. Each time it changes hands, another title is issued, and the fees and taxes get paid to the state where it is being registered. The insurance company cares a lot about who owns the car, title and all, as does the state who collects the taxes and fees.

The dealer isn't likely to play games with you, by "selling it to your Dad", but putting your name on the paperwork, as that wouldn't qualify for the loyalty rebate from Toyota. You have to remember, there are a few different players here, each with serious businesses, who are most likely not going to risk any part of their business or reputation, just to save you a few dollars.

I would suggest you do some research at your local states Department of Motor Vehicles to find out what the legal requirements are in your state. In addition, go to the Toyota web site for your state, and research exactly what is required to prove you are qualified for the loyalty rebate. There will be specific requirements, that you'll have to follow, and they will be laid out for you.

You might be able to get the dealer to accept that the Dad's Camry is in the "family" and that you are a part of the family, therefore qualifying for the loyalty rebate.

Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
dklanecky,

Wowzer. That was really helpful. I am thinking I will let the loyalty cash idea go. There are too many players here and each want a piece.

I do have one more question. About the earlier post. You said I’d have to pay sales tax twice. Can you elaborate on that? Obviously I’d pay it at the dealer the first time around. But if my dad were to gift the car to me, there would be no taxes correct?

In any case, I think this will be a tough thing to do logistically as my dad lives in a diff state

Thanks for taking the time with your responses! Have a Happy thanksgiving!

EE
 

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I suppose I got a bit overzealous. There were seemingly so many people who reportedly got the new Avalon limiteds for 33-36k out the door, I was like hey, why not me? I should negotiate harder. I didn’t want to be the sucker paying 41.5 out the door for a new one. So I let the deals on the 2019 and 2020 elapse today.

Hopefully 2020 will bring the 3500 rebate back for Avalon hybrid back! Time to go back to watchful waiting.
 

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dklanecky,

Wowzer. That was really helpful. I am thinking I will let the loyalty cash idea go. There are too many players here and each want a piece.

I do have one more question. About the earlier post. You said I’d have to pay sales tax twice. Can you elaborate on that? Obviously I’d pay it at the dealer the first time around. But if my dad were to gift the car to me, there would be no taxes correct?

In any case, I think this will be a tough thing to do logistically as my dad lives in a diff state

Thanks for taking the time with your responses! Have a Happy thanksgiving!

EE
Each time it changes hands, another title is issued, and the fees and sales taxes get paid to the state where it is being registered. So if you were going to have your Dad buy it, he would have to title it and register it, and he'd be paying sales tax on the purchase. Then when he sells it to you, you' be paying all the same fees again, sales tax, and registration fees, especially if your in a different state than your Dad. Sales can get sticky when they are going from one state to another. Both states want to be certain everything is correct, so they can be real sticky. I had this type of problem on a motorcycle that I bought from my son in Minnesota, and then sold in Wisconsin. PITA!
 

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I suppose I got a bit overzealous. There were seemingly so many people who reportedly got the new Avalon limiteds for 33-36k out the door, I was like hey, why not me? I should negotiate harder. I didn’t want to be the sucker paying 41.5 out the door for a new one. So I let the deals on the 2019 and 2020 elapse today.

Hopefully 2020 will bring the 3500 rebate back for Avalon hybrid back! Time to go back to watchful waiting.
Not that I am so experienced at buying new vehicles, but whenever someone is in a hurry to get ______done, or this deal will never come along again....perhaps step back and consider that there may be a "end of year" blowout sale, January white sale, etc. Do some armchair shopping and find the exact vehicle (interior & exterior colors, trim, options, side body moldings, door edge guards, etc.) Sooner or later, you'll find a dealer that wants to move a vehicle, and free up some investment money to get a better seller on the lot. In my quest to find a used TAH Limited, I saw (on the internet) a car that was on the lot 600 days. I saw different dealers jack around about $800 to $895 for paperwork fees (no loan) and a place in TN that wanted to charge like 5 different taxes (totaled about $300) and I was taking the car out of state....should be no taxes. I recognize that you had OTD prices, but point being that many dealers don't want to play ball.... So take your cash/loan somewhere else. Find the exact car on the internet, and solicit bids. Looking at Carfax's for used cars for sale, I could see that many cars originated from other than the local dealer. Some dealers offered financing discounts, and trade in guarantees that were bogus, just advertising ploys to show a lower used price. I wanted a straight deal, no loan, no trade, no tax (out of state) and it was easy enough to figure out with just an email or a couple calls.

There are 20 cars on Autotrader right now from $39411 to $40K, and a 2020 TAH Limited w/1500 miles @ Lexus of Austin for $37950.
There is a 2019 TAH Limited w/12K miles for $33856 in Alabama, I reckon never titled. Another in FL 7515 miles $31995.
Lots of other car venues to find your dream car on. Rent a car, or fly and drive it home, worked for me.
There is a 2018 new car for $44821 in MA....never gonna happen...can you imagine? Find a dealer that wants to sell cars, not just display them.
You can have quality, get it fast, or cheap....pick any 2.....
 

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You know, I always look at "negotiating advice" threads just like at "what's the best gun for self defense" ones.
No matter what gun you own, best one is the one that you can pull out, point at human being and pull the trigger. And THAT is not very easy to do.
Same goes for negotiating advice. You have to have gut to stand up to seasoned sales person and negotiate. If you do not have that gut - well, any advice is pointless. If you have gut - you likely do not need advice to start with.
Personally, I prefer online sales. I find something I like, compare to local craigslist private p[arty pricing as gauge, send them email and say - IF it checks out, this is how much I am willing to pay. If they take it and agree - I have price black on white. I, also, learned to ask about OTD price - out the door - as advertised prices are meaningless without that price. No pressure, no nervous break down. Yes or No.
 

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Each time it changes hands, another title is issued, and the fees and sales taxes get paid to the state where it is being registered. So if you were going to have your Dad buy it, he would have to title it and register it, and he'd be paying sales tax on the purchase. Then when he sells it to you, you' be paying all the same fees again, sales tax, and registration fees, especially if your in a different state than your Dad. Sales can get sticky when they are going from one state to another. Both states want to be certain everything is correct, so they can be real sticky. I had this type of problem on a motorcycle that I bought from my son in Minnesota, and then sold in Wisconsin. PITA!
Here's the current terms, for the loyalty rebate, which expires tomorrow:

Customers purchasing or leasing a new, unused and unlicensed, 2019 Avalon Gas or Avalon Hybrid from dealer ground stock between 11-05-2019 and 12-02-2019 are entitled to an additional $2,000 Avalon Loyalty Cash. See terms below
  • Customer currently owns or leases an Avalon Gas, Avalon Hybrid, Camry Gas or Camry Hybrid
  • Customer purchases/leases an eligible 2019 Avalon Gas (3544, 3547, 3548, 3554) or Avalon Hybrid (3504, 3507, 3514) model
  • Avalon Loyalty cash must be applied towards the purchase/lease of an eligible new 2019 Avalon Gas or Avalon Hybrid model
  • Avalon Loyalty Cash is transferable within the household (same address as current owner/lease)
  • Customer is not required to trade in their existing Avalon Gas, Avalon Hybrid, Camry Gas, Camry Hybrid vehicle to be eligible
  • This offer can be combined with any existing incentive offers
  • Contact Dealer
*Supplemental Terms & Conditions: 1. Offer valid on all eligible purchases and leases within the eligible dates specified on the first page of certificate. 2. Offer valid on any new, unused and unlicensed, vehicle (as specified on page one) purchased out of dealer stock during the program period and registered with the appropriate state motor vehicle department. Fleet purchasers are excluded. 3. Must be 18 years of age and have a valid driver's license. 4. Offer void where prohibited. 5. Only the signed certificate will be honored. 6. Ineligible sales: - All category “J” car and truck sales. - Vehicles reported sold during the program period and subsequently rolled back. - Vehicles sold in violation of Toyota’s export policy. - Vehicles traded from one dealership to another are ineligible for the trading (sending) dealership. - All vehicles sold to conversion companies. - Vehicles sold to a broker, used-vehicle dealer, or any other reseller that are not delivered to the ultimate consumers during the program period. - Vehicles that are not officially registered with the appropriate state motor vehicle department. - Vehicles utilizing dealer or other similar plates which preclude the need to register the individual vehicle with the appropriate state motor vehicle department - Vehicles placed in dealer demo service. - Vehicles purchased through authorized Toyota auctions. - For Sales/Travel contests, sales of more than 20 vehicles of the same series/model to any one account in the same program month - All VSPP TMS Special Purchase Program (Type Sales Code 02) purchases/leases.The following sales will be ineligible unless explicitly approved by Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc: - Vehicles registered to any Toyota distributor or dealership or to any business corporation in which any Toyota distributor or dealership has ownership interest - Vehicles sold to a Distributor-owned or Dealer-owned rental company. - Sales of more than 20 vehicles of the same series/model to any one account in the same program month - This offer is paid for by TMS and may not be used in conjunction with other TMS or Toyota Motor Credit Corporation offers. - All certificates are subject to audit. Any rollback or invalid certificates will be charged back to the selling Dealer. - All matters of program eligibility and qualification will be conclusively resolved by Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. - Toyota Motor Sales reserves the right to change product specifications at any time without incurring obligations. - All VSPP TMS Special Purchase Program (Type Sales Code 02) purchases/leases. - One coupon per retail transaction.
 

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You know, I always look at "negotiating advice" threads just like at "what's the best gun for self defense" ones.
No matter what gun you own, best one is the one that you can pull out, point at human being and pull the trigger. And THAT is not very easy to do.
Same goes for negotiating advice. You have to have gut to stand up to seasoned sales person and negotiate. If you do not have that gut - well, any advice is pointless. If you have gut - you likely do not need advice to start with.
Personally, I prefer online sales. I find something I like, compare to local craigslist private p[arty pricing as gauge, send them email and say - IF it checks out, this is how much I am willing to pay. If they take it and agree - I have price black on white. I, also, learned to ask about OTD price - out the door - as advertised prices are meaningless without that price. No pressure, no nervous break down. Yes or No.
Excellent advice! I prefer to have a firm concrete price before I leave home, myself....especially Craigslist if it is more than 10 miles....which is always.
You absolutely must have the ability to walk away....and if necessary, just walk away.

Yeah, I hear ya....9mm, 40 or 45...which is best? About every 3 months seems like good interval to ask.....? (can't find the smilie for the "beating a dead horse")
 

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Discussion Starter #12
All,

Thank you kindly for all your advice. I have found it very very helpful!

I will keep you all updated on what’s happening in the negotiation wars!
 

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Regarding being a Camry owner, you could also have your dad sell you his Camry for $1 or gift it to you, a new temporary title would be given in your name, you could present that to get your loyalty monies, and always gift it back to dad at a later date.

Agree with comments earlier about negotiating out the door pricing only. I sent the same spreadsheet to close to 25 dealers across 3 regions. I used the Toyota vehicle finder continually having to change my zip code, so I could get the actual VIN of the exact vehicle(s) I was dealing on per dealer.

I specified less than 10 miles on the vehicle and I would not allow them to "drive one in" as this is a common trick where they sell you a demo vehicle they've had on their lot that their salesmen have gotten to drive, I'd suspect hard, in the evenings home or that a customer had as a loaner.

All accessories I specified must be OEM, I included the part numbers, and that any labor was also included in the OTD price I was negotiating.

Regarding "beer talking", I don't drink beer, but do enjoy getting a superb deal. My purchase took place over a 3 week period as I emailed dealers, tracked salespersons, and the one I chose was 2 hours away from me, and I had them send me a signed purchase agreement detailing everything I'd spelled out in my spreadsheet, signed by them, before I'd give them a deposit. I went back over the agreement the day I showed up to pick up the car, and, guess what, I'd spelled out a carpet trunk mat and full OEM clear film for mirror backs, hood, door cups and they'd only done the front bumper. The salesman said he couldn't do it, so I said I'd take my deposit back in a check and I headed toward the door. Minutes later, original deal granted, I had to wait for the OEM film to be installed, and my trunk mat he shipped to me. I wrote him a check for the full price, minus the deposit, and almost 4k miles later, loving the vehicle and my price.
 

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Just for reference if it helps, I just got a MY2019 Avalon Hybrid XSE in New York state with 60 miles on the odometer for $33,300 (retail was $41,300) before TTL. 36,000 OTD.
 
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