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幻影
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Michigan really needs more japanese automakers too. Our economy is doing so bad, that most people will agree and say, to hell with the big 3, if japanese automakers are going to bring jobs and money to the state, then they will be welcome.
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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To hell with the Big Three...to hell with the Michigan economy. Toyota won't even come close to replenishing the lost jobs if GM, Ford, and the suppliers like Delphi would all go under. You're talking hundreds of thousands of jobs.

I hate to break the news, but Toyota is a business...and these plants that they are building in the United States are done because it saves Toyota money and it's good PR for sales. Instead of importing here, they can just build 'em in the states with cheap labor on cheap, tax incentive land. They could care less about our local economies because the United States is not their home country. If GM and Ford go away like many here seem to be wishing for, will Toyota build hospitals in Michigan, invest in state education programs, and give money to local organizations like Ford and GM have been doing for the last 100 years? Will Toyota move into the Renaissance Center that Ford Motor Company built in the 1970s to revitalize downtown Detroit? GM and Ford have done and continue to do so much...yet most Americans turn a blind eye.

Toyota is like Wal-Mart...they are a large corporation with headquarters far away, but they are super efficient and excellent at strategizing. I give them props for their efficiency...they are way beyond that of GM and Ford. However, just because Wal-Mart builds a new 250,000 square foot SuperCenter, it doesn't mean that the town is healthy when all the other local businesses are gone...
 

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I'm not looking for toyota to build a factory because I want GM and Ford to die. As much as I think the Big 2 suck, I don't for a second want them to close down. It doesn't take a genius to see what kind of effect that would have on the US economy.

When I'm bored or talking to other car guys, I'm usually spouting "this is what GM needs to do to turnaround" rather than "toyota rocks even more, here's why"

It's like pulling for the underdog b/c you know the big dog is better and gonna win anyway
(that said, I'm a diehard toyota fan and will continue to have a minimum of 3 in my driveway at all times :))
 

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CRESSIDA!!!
1984 Toyota Cressida
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dsmnick said:
To hell with the Big Three...to hell with the Michigan economy. Toyota won't even come close to replenishing the lost jobs if GM, Ford, and the suppliers like Delphi would all go under. You're talking hundreds of thousands of jobs.

I hate to break the news, but Toyota is a business...and these plants that they are building in the United States are done because it saves Toyota money and it's good PR for sales. Instead of importing here, they can just build 'em in the states with cheap labor on cheap, tax incentive land. They could care less about our local economies because the United States is not their home country. If GM and Ford go away like many here seem to be wishing for, will Toyota build hospitals in Michigan, invest in state education programs, and give money to local organizations like Ford and GM have been doing for the last 100 years? Will Toyota move into the Renaissance Center that Ford Motor Company built in the 1970s to revitalize downtown Detroit? GM and Ford have done and continue to do so much...yet most Americans turn a blind eye.

Toyota is like Wal-Mart...they are a large corporation with headquarters far away, but they are super efficient and excellent at strategizing. I give them props for their efficiency...they are way beyond that of GM and Ford. However, just because Wal-Mart builds a new 250,000 square foot SuperCenter, it doesn't mean that the town is healthy when all the other local businesses are gone...
And GM and Ford are corporations, too. You honestly believe they care about their workers? Yeah, they care about Americans while also outscorcing Austrailan made GTOs, Korean made GMDATs, & Swedish made Saabs.
Oh, also, Toyota DOES donate to charites, schools and more. They gave $5 MILLON to the Hurricane Katrina fund, while "America loving" GM donated a measly $400,000. Most Americans don't care about GM/Ford because they were burned so many times by their shitty vehicles. The constant mistakes they make, and unappealing product just makes them lol all the way to the Toyota dealership. While Domestic car fans are blaming the "Biased" media, Toyota, and the Unions for GM's problems, GM makes loss after loss, month after month. They deserve it.
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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I figured I'd get a heated response from you lacking in research.

GM donated $1 million to the Red Cross, $1 million to FEMA-approved agencies, 200 vehicles (HUMMERS, full-size SUVs, trucks, vans, etc) for use in hurricane affected areas valued at $6 million, three hybrid buses for transporting people out of Houston, as well as free Onstar service to those in affected states. GM employees also donated an additional $1.4 million. All told, GM probably donated close to $9 or $10 million toward the hurricane victims. So please, cut the crap...that $400,000 figure was from one of the first press releases.

GM regularly puts on educational programs for local schools in Michigan to teach children about new technologies such as space exploration, fuel efficiency, etc. The GM Foundation gave $68 million to charities and schools in 2004.

Ford has been involved in Habitat for Humanity programs to build houses for needy families since 1995. Ford has consisently been the largest supplier of Habitat teams to build the houses. They built 230 habitat homes in Michigan in 2005.

Ford was one of the first companies to pioneer green architecture in industrial manufacturing plants when it renovated the century-old Rouge Plant in 2003. Being an architecture student, green architecture is the next big thing...and Ford has set a precedent for environmental and energy responisbility for manufacturing into the 21st century. Ford also is one of the most diversified large corporations in this country, placing women, minorities, and gay/lesbian people in high rankings within the corporate structure. The same can't be said about Toyota, as Japanese culture tends to restrict promotions to largely males only (and forget about minorities and homosexuals).

So cut the bull Cressida. I realize Toyota does donate some money here and does invest in some programs, but not nearly to the extent that GM and Ford do. Considering that Bill Ford has refused pay until Ford Motor becomes profitable again (after all, it's his name on the top of the World Headquarters) and GM invested in ailing downtown Detroit by moving its headquarters to the Renaissance Center, I'd say you're brushing off the reality of the situation. When Toyota moves its world headquarters here to the US from Toyota City in Japan, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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Dsmnick, do your homework. Toyota is as good or better of a corporate citizen as Ford and GM.
If GM cared so much about the American workers, they would not have dumped the American-made Prizm in favor of the Korean-made Aveo.
GM could have easily worked out a deal for Toyota to make them a Yaris (another car thats made at NUMMI) with Chevy badges (and the inferior Delco sound system). Instead, GM chose to go the cheap route.
Also, GM has repeatedly said that if American auto parts suppliers cant find a way to cut cost, they will go to China and Korean for parts.
Sure, GM and Ford do some good things, but they arent up for sainthood quite yet.
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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Captain_Toyota said:
Dsmnick, do your homework. Toyota is as good or better of a corporate citizen as Ford and GM.
If GM cared so much about the American workers, they would not have dumped the American-made Prizm in favor of the Korean-made Aveo.
Small cars like that are small profit, hence why GM used a Daewoo as a base. GM owns 100% of Daewoo, and they are using an already existing car that is sold in India, Russia, China, Korea, etc. Toyota is doing the same thing by building cars here in the US...they can do it cheaper here so they can make a profit off them. But since American automakers have to jump through so many loopholes to sell, let alone build cars in Japan (Ford has tried numerous times to build plants in Japan to no avail), you don't see GM or Ford setting up shop there. And Japan is the largest car market in Asia...funny that we give them unobstructed access to our market, but the Japanese government makes us jump through hoops like a show dog to just import a few specialty cars over there.

If GM wasn't being forced to pay billions in legacy costs that Toyota doesn't have to pay, I'm sure they could be building new factories here too.

Was Toyota being a good corporate citizen recently when they shut down a factory indefinately in India because workers were stiking due to three employees being fired (because they were involved in a local union)? That's something Wal-Mart does, not a large "caring" corporation like Toyota. I've read about Japanese citizens being permanently injured and dying because Toyota in Japan forces them to work excessive hours or else they will lose their jobs. That sounds more like something that would happen at a third-world shoe factory, not a responsible global corporation like Toyota.

Please tell me how GM and Ford are worse corporate citizens for this country...I just provided tons of facts straight off the GM and Ford websites, while you have sidetracked this argument toward the Aveo without giving me anything but your opinion that Toyota is better.
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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Captain_Toyota said:
GM could have easily worked out a deal for Toyota to make them a Yaris (another car thats made at NUMMI) with Chevy badges (and the inferior Delco sound system). Instead, GM chose to go the cheap route.
Also, GM has repeatedly said that if American auto parts suppliers cant find a way to cut cost, they will go to China and Korean for parts.
Sure, GM and Ford do some good things, but they arent up for sainthood quite yet.
Not likely. The parternships that GM and Toyota have had in the past are pretty much over. I've heard that there is a strong likelihood of an Opel replacement for the Vibe. Why would GM want anything to do with Toyota anymore now that they consistently attempt to humiliate them in the press? I bet GM will have completely severed ties with Toyota by the end of the decade.

It's sad that GM is being forced to globalize, but unfortunately that's the reality if they want to keep their head above water. You root for a globalized company that isn't even headquartered in this country. GM still gets 80% of its parts from the US...and Toyota is still only 41%. That's the reality...everything else is speculation.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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dsmnick said:
Why would GM want anything to do with Toyota anymore now that they consistently attempt to humiliate them in the press? I bet GM will have completely severed ties with Toyota by the end of the decade.
Its more like its the other way around. GM takes shots at Toyota every chance they get, says that Toyota's quality isnt dropping, ect, ect.
Theres an old saying, "you should sweep in front of your own door first." GM should worry about fixing their own problems instead of trying to point of the flaws of others.
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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Captain_Toyota said:
Its more like its the other way around. GM takes shots at Toyota every chance they get, says that Toyota's quality isnt dropping, ect, ect.
Theres an old saying, "you should sweep in front of your own door first." GM should worry about fixing their own problems instead of trying to point of the flaws of others.
And Toyota doesn't do the same? I seem to remember countless articles over the last year including snippets of PR commentary from Jim Press and others boasting how they will overtake GM in '06 and the pity party they threw in the New York Times and other publications saying they would raise prices to help out poor ol' Ford and GM. I also seem to remember an article two or three years ago where Toyota proudly exclaimed it was the No. 2 automaker, beating out Ford...later they retracted that statement after it was found that Toyota had included heavy-duty trucks where Ford hadn't. Ford was still the number two automaker for at least a year after that.

It seems to me like Toyota loves to jump the gun. GM didn't start blatently fighting back until after the PR debacle where Toyota stated it was going to raise prices to help them out, splashing it across every major publication in the country. You can bet General Motors was not happy to be painted as some frail giant needing a prop up. General Motors is still the largest automaker by almost 1 million vehicles...and they are just now giving Toyota a dose of its own medicine. Little known fact: GM global sales abroad shot up by 200,000 vehicles this year, to 9.18 million, lead by massive gains in China and South America. Toyota sold just over 8 million. Toyota has been struggling in China, which is the fastest growing car market currently. My opinion: the hype that Toyota will overtake GM in '06 is exactly that...hype. GM may be struggling in NA, but abroad they are doing very well.

You still haven't answered my question why Toyota is a better corporate citizen than GM or Ford in this country.
 

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I'm that guy.
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Captain_Toyota said:
Its more like its the other way around. GM takes shots at Toyota every chance they get, says that Toyota's quality isnt dropping, ect, ect.
Theres an old saying, "you should sweep in front of your own door first." GM should worry about fixing their own problems instead of trying to point of the flaws of others.
So Mr. Okuda didn't recently make a backhanded slap at GM by saying that the government would bail them out if bankruptcy occured? Thats a pot shot if I saw one. Then there's also this great quote of his--""As far as I look at the situation as an outsider, its market share has declined and it has failed to produce quality cars."As far as I look at the situation as an outsider, its market share has declined and it has failed to produce quality cars." The raising of prices to "help" GM and Ford. Toyota is far from innocent in the field of mud slinging.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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'09 iQ Diesel
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So it's a bad thing for USA that Toyota wants to build new factories there? (Sorry, but that's pretty much where you are getting!)

The "Raise prices to help the competition" was only a idea said out aloud by an executive - Toyota was quick to make an official statement denying this.

The Toyota plant in question has also reopenend. I guess "indefinetely" isn't such a long time after all.

And please stop the schizophrenic delusions about the community that lead to cheap shots like: "If GM and Ford go away like many here seem to be wishing for...". I can assure you that kind of people are in the extreme minority (and probably about 13 years old). That is the kind of behaviour you will find in communities whose ideals are struggling and failing.

Last time I checked, that didn't apply for Toyota.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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I agree, Lasse. Personally, I hope GM and Ford dont go away because of all the people it would effect. Not so much the people who are personally employed by Ford and GM, but the smaller companies that make parts and components for Ford and GM.
There is no way that Toyota could fill the void that would be left if Ford and GM went under (last time I checked, Ford and GM make about 15 million vehicles a year, there is no way Toyota could make up for that).
I also kind of resent the attitude that Toyota is this distant company who could care less about support American communities. Thats just not true. Toyota isnt up for sainthood either, but they do a lot to support local communities. (as do Ford and GM)
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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Lasse D said:
So it's a bad thing for USA that Toyota wants to build new factories there? (Sorry, but that's pretty much where you are getting!)
I never once said that. But I am tired of everybody (not anyone here, the news media) who constantly harp when a domestic plant closes but heap praise when Toyota opens a new plant. There is simply too much competition for GM and Ford to keep ALL their plants open...the market is so fragmented today that you can't expect them to have the same market share percentage they had in the 70s when Toyota and Honda were fledgling companies in the US and Hyundai didn't even exist here. If you're interested, I wrote a pretty decent example of market fragmentation and how it affects market share percentage on another website.

The "Raise prices to help the competition" was only a idea said out aloud by an executive - Toyota was quick to make an official statement denying this.
Well, that's a pretty irresponsible "thinking aloud" comment to made by Okuda (same guy that made the recent comment about the government bailing out GM and Ford, and the wise "GM and Ford are struggling" remark...Gee, really??). How does a "thinking aloud" comment wind up on USA Today, the BBC, and most major publications around the US? Toyota was quick to make an official statement when the US Justice Department began accusing them of illegal price signaling. Someone needs to cut Okuda's speaking priviledges to the media.

By the way, it really wasn't a "quick response" considering Okuda made the price remarks twice within a two week period.

The Toyota plant in question has also reopenend. I guess "indefinetely" isn't such a long time after all.
It's not too hard to find new employees with all the cheap labor in India. I'm sure they were expendable. I mean, who wants employees around who demand higher pay and better working conditions, right?

Alleging that the management had resorted to 'a slave-like treatment' of its employees, Ravi said that the employees had been forced to work under 'unfavourable working conditions' and were often subjected to high-handedness by the mangement.

He further alleged that the dismissals were nothing but a process of 'victimisation' against those who had stood up against the management. The management he further alleged had tried to 'set up' a union favoured by it and was opposed to the elected body. They rather had favoured representatives nominated by it.
http://news.indiainfo.com/2006/01/09/09012toyota-kirolaskar-guilty-violating-law.html
 

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CRESSIDA!!!
1984 Toyota Cressida
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dsmnick said:
Small cars like that are small profit, hence why GM used a Daewoo as a base. GM owns 100% of Daewoo, and they are using an already existing car that is sold in India, Russia, China, Korea, etc. Toyota is doing the same thing by building cars here in the US...they can do it cheaper here so they can make a profit off them. But since American automakers have to jump through so many loopholes to sell, let alone build cars in Japan (Ford has tried numerous times to build plants in Japan to no avail), you don't see GM or Ford setting up shop there. And Japan is the largest car market in Asia...funny that we give them unobstructed access to our market, but the Japanese government makes us jump through hoops like a show dog to just import a few specialty cars over there.

If GM wasn't being forced to pay billions in legacy costs that Toyota doesn't have to pay, I'm sure they could be building new factories here too.

Was Toyota being a good corporate citizen recently when they shut down a factory indefinately in India because workers were stiking due to three employees being fired (because they were involved in a local union)? That's something Wal-Mart does, not a large "caring" corporation like Toyota. I've read about Japanese citizens being permanently injured and dying because Toyota in Japan forces them to work excessive hours or else they will lose their jobs. That sounds more like something that would happen at a third-world shoe factory, not a responsible global corporation like Toyota.

Please tell me how GM and Ford are worse corporate citizens for this country...I just provided tons of facts straight off the GM and Ford websites, while you have sidetracked this argument toward the Aveo without giving me anything but your opinion that Toyota is better.
Those people overworked VOLUNTARILY. Toyota didn't make them.
 

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H/O 455
1994 Chevy Lumina
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84Cressida said:
Those people overworked VOLUNTARILY. Toyota didn't make them.
OK, technically Toyota is not chaining them to the assembly line...but give me a break, do you truly believe these people wanted to work themselves to death??

I took a political science course on this...if you knew anything about Japanese culture, you would know that once you are middle-aged, you are pretty much worthless for work. You start young by getting a job at a corporation or somewhere and spend your entire life working up the corporate ladder. But as you age, your relevance becomes less important and you have to pray that you maintain that job for the rest of your life. It's not like here in America where we can go from job to job as we please...it's a completely different system over there.

These people were forced under long hours and overtime with no pay because they didn't want to lose their jobs. If they lost their job, they couldn't support their families and it would be nearly impossible to find a new one at that age. Do you think it's right that Toyota refuses to pay overtime or makes workers work 7 days a week with no breaks to spend with family? The reason the Japanese are so damn precise in their work is because they are all in fear of being replaced by another employee if they fail. Failure even drives some to suicide. This all dates back the Japanese samuri of the pre-industrial era who would commit suicide as an "honorable" way to end their life and end the curse of shame that would hang over the heads of future generations of family members.

If Toyota is such a great company, why are so many workers dying under its watch? Why no overtime pay if they are such a rich company? Why do they make employees work 7 day weeks and only give them time off on national holidays? No wonder Toyota doesn't let its USA plants unionize...it goes completely against their corporate culture.

Come back and argue with me in about 5 years when you have graduated from high school.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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As if GM is so much better where the CEOs get raises while the workers get laid off.
You are right about you comments about the work ethic of the Japanese. They have the attitude that you do whatever you must to keep up. If that means you come in early and stay late, thats what you do. (even see the movie, "Gung Ho"?)
Its not as if the bosses held a gun to their heads and make them stay at their work stations.
You make it sound like Toyota is so evil for firing someone who doesnt pull their own weight and do a good job. Thats the way it is supposed to be: show up on time, keep up with the line and do a good job. Do those things, and you will always have a job.
 
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