And GM and Ford are corporations, too. You honestly believe they care about their workers? Yeah, they care about Americans while also outscorcing Austrailan made GTOs, Korean made GMDATs, & Swedish made Saabs.dsmnick said:To hell with the Big Three...to hell with the Michigan economy. Toyota won't even come close to replenishing the lost jobs if GM, Ford, and the suppliers like Delphi would all go under. You're talking hundreds of thousands of jobs.
I hate to break the news, but Toyota is a business...and these plants that they are building in the United States are done because it saves Toyota money and it's good PR for sales. Instead of importing here, they can just build 'em in the states with cheap labor on cheap, tax incentive land. They could care less about our local economies because the United States is not their home country. If GM and Ford go away like many here seem to be wishing for, will Toyota build hospitals in Michigan, invest in state education programs, and give money to local organizations like Ford and GM have been doing for the last 100 years? Will Toyota move into the Renaissance Center that Ford Motor Company built in the 1970s to revitalize downtown Detroit? GM and Ford have done and continue to do so much...yet most Americans turn a blind eye.
Toyota is like Wal-Mart...they are a large corporation with headquarters far away, but they are super efficient and excellent at strategizing. I give them props for their efficiency...they are way beyond that of GM and Ford. However, just because Wal-Mart builds a new 250,000 square foot SuperCenter, it doesn't mean that the town is healthy when all the other local businesses are gone...
Small cars like that are small profit, hence why GM used a Daewoo as a base. GM owns 100% of Daewoo, and they are using an already existing car that is sold in India, Russia, China, Korea, etc. Toyota is doing the same thing by building cars here in the US...they can do it cheaper here so they can make a profit off them. But since American automakers have to jump through so many loopholes to sell, let alone build cars in Japan (Ford has tried numerous times to build plants in Japan to no avail), you don't see GM or Ford setting up shop there. And Japan is the largest car market in Asia...funny that we give them unobstructed access to our market, but the Japanese government makes us jump through hoops like a show dog to just import a few specialty cars over there.Captain_Toyota said:Dsmnick, do your homework. Toyota is as good or better of a corporate citizen as Ford and GM.
If GM cared so much about the American workers, they would not have dumped the American-made Prizm in favor of the Korean-made Aveo.
Not likely. The parternships that GM and Toyota have had in the past are pretty much over. I've heard that there is a strong likelihood of an Opel replacement for the Vibe. Why would GM want anything to do with Toyota anymore now that they consistently attempt to humiliate them in the press? I bet GM will have completely severed ties with Toyota by the end of the decade.Captain_Toyota said:GM could have easily worked out a deal for Toyota to make them a Yaris (another car thats made at NUMMI) with Chevy badges (and the inferior Delco sound system). Instead, GM chose to go the cheap route.
Also, GM has repeatedly said that if American auto parts suppliers cant find a way to cut cost, they will go to China and Korean for parts.
Sure, GM and Ford do some good things, but they arent up for sainthood quite yet.
Its more like its the other way around. GM takes shots at Toyota every chance they get, says that Toyota's quality isnt dropping, ect, ect.dsmnick said:Why would GM want anything to do with Toyota anymore now that they consistently attempt to humiliate them in the press? I bet GM will have completely severed ties with Toyota by the end of the decade.
And Toyota doesn't do the same? I seem to remember countless articles over the last year including snippets of PR commentary from Jim Press and others boasting how they will overtake GM in '06 and the pity party they threw in the New York Times and other publications saying they would raise prices to help out poor ol' Ford and GM. I also seem to remember an article two or three years ago where Toyota proudly exclaimed it was the No. 2 automaker, beating out Ford...later they retracted that statement after it was found that Toyota had included heavy-duty trucks where Ford hadn't. Ford was still the number two automaker for at least a year after that.Captain_Toyota said:Its more like its the other way around. GM takes shots at Toyota every chance they get, says that Toyota's quality isnt dropping, ect, ect.
Theres an old saying, "you should sweep in front of your own door first." GM should worry about fixing their own problems instead of trying to point of the flaws of others.
So Mr. Okuda didn't recently make a backhanded slap at GM by saying that the government would bail them out if bankruptcy occured? Thats a pot shot if I saw one. Then there's also this great quote of his--""As far as I look at the situation as an outsider, its market share has declined and it has failed to produce quality cars."As far as I look at the situation as an outsider, its market share has declined and it has failed to produce quality cars." The raising of prices to "help" GM and Ford. Toyota is far from innocent in the field of mud slinging.Captain_Toyota said:Its more like its the other way around. GM takes shots at Toyota every chance they get, says that Toyota's quality isnt dropping, ect, ect.
Theres an old saying, "you should sweep in front of your own door first." GM should worry about fixing their own problems instead of trying to point of the flaws of others.
http://www.toyota.com/about/community/index.htmldsmnick said:You still haven't answered my question why Toyota is a better corporate citizen than GM or Ford in this country.
I never once said that. But I am tired of everybody (not anyone here, the news media) who constantly harp when a domestic plant closes but heap praise when Toyota opens a new plant. There is simply too much competition for GM and Ford to keep ALL their plants open...the market is so fragmented today that you can't expect them to have the same market share percentage they had in the 70s when Toyota and Honda were fledgling companies in the US and Hyundai didn't even exist here. If you're interested, I wrote a pretty decent example of market fragmentation and how it affects market share percentage on another website.Lasse D said:So it's a bad thing for USA that Toyota wants to build new factories there? (Sorry, but that's pretty much where you are getting!)
Well, that's a pretty irresponsible "thinking aloud" comment to made by Okuda (same guy that made the recent comment about the government bailing out GM and Ford, and the wise "GM and Ford are struggling" remark...Gee, really??). How does a "thinking aloud" comment wind up on USA Today, the BBC, and most major publications around the US? Toyota was quick to make an official statement when the US Justice Department began accusing them of illegal price signaling. Someone needs to cut Okuda's speaking priviledges to the media.The "Raise prices to help the competition" was only a idea said out aloud by an executive - Toyota was quick to make an official statement denying this.
It's not too hard to find new employees with all the cheap labor in India. I'm sure they were expendable. I mean, who wants employees around who demand higher pay and better working conditions, right?The Toyota plant in question has also reopenend. I guess "indefinetely" isn't such a long time after all.
http://news.indiainfo.com/2006/01/09/09012toyota-kirolaskar-guilty-violating-law.htmlAlleging that the management had resorted to 'a slave-like treatment' of its employees, Ravi said that the employees had been forced to work under 'unfavourable working conditions' and were often subjected to high-handedness by the mangement.
He further alleged that the dismissals were nothing but a process of 'victimisation' against those who had stood up against the management. The management he further alleged had tried to 'set up' a union favoured by it and was opposed to the elected body. They rather had favoured representatives nominated by it.
Those people overworked VOLUNTARILY. Toyota didn't make them.dsmnick said:Small cars like that are small profit, hence why GM used a Daewoo as a base. GM owns 100% of Daewoo, and they are using an already existing car that is sold in India, Russia, China, Korea, etc. Toyota is doing the same thing by building cars here in the US...they can do it cheaper here so they can make a profit off them. But since American automakers have to jump through so many loopholes to sell, let alone build cars in Japan (Ford has tried numerous times to build plants in Japan to no avail), you don't see GM or Ford setting up shop there. And Japan is the largest car market in Asia...funny that we give them unobstructed access to our market, but the Japanese government makes us jump through hoops like a show dog to just import a few specialty cars over there.
If GM wasn't being forced to pay billions in legacy costs that Toyota doesn't have to pay, I'm sure they could be building new factories here too.
Was Toyota being a good corporate citizen recently when they shut down a factory indefinately in India because workers were stiking due to three employees being fired (because they were involved in a local union)? That's something Wal-Mart does, not a large "caring" corporation like Toyota. I've read about Japanese citizens being permanently injured and dying because Toyota in Japan forces them to work excessive hours or else they will lose their jobs. That sounds more like something that would happen at a third-world shoe factory, not a responsible global corporation like Toyota.
Please tell me how GM and Ford are worse corporate citizens for this country...I just provided tons of facts straight off the GM and Ford websites, while you have sidetracked this argument toward the Aveo without giving me anything but your opinion that Toyota is better.
OK, technically Toyota is not chaining them to the assembly line...but give me a break, do you truly believe these people wanted to work themselves to death??84Cressida said:Those people overworked VOLUNTARILY. Toyota didn't make them.