Toyota Nation Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Banned
'95 Toyota 4x4 xcab
Joined
·
1,110 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This was touched on in the other oil thread but I figured now that I had pics and proof that I would start another thread to make it easier to find in a search.

For discussion purposes here are the posts from the other thread about the differences in gasket sizes.

Names deleted because I'm not trying to pick a fight.



xxxxxx said:
For anyone thinking of using the ST16 for the first time be sure to clean the filter mounting surface on the block as the gasket's on these filter's are of a larger diameter than the ST3614.

For those that have room a ST3600 is the longer version of the ST3614. The ST16 is short but large in diameter.

A good resource for cross-referencing oil filters can be found here:

http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/results.asp?PartNo=PH3614&Submit=Search

You will have to substitute PH for ST though to find the filter model you are looking for.

As an example: PH3614 is Wix filter # 51348. Click on that and you will be given the filter's published specifications. Repeat for PH3600 and PH16 and you can compare the differences.

xxxxxxx said:
Not true...

I put the St16 on a ph3614 and the gasket is exactly the same. It has the same thread and the same gasket, it's just bigger around.

I read it was the same and verified it before I bought it.

Not only that, but the St/PH16's used to be bigger around and almost twice as long as a 3614 until they put the new core in it. With the new core flow and surface area are increased so much they made the filters shorter.
XXXXXX said:
I've got two filter's in front of me, one a ST16 and the other a ST3600. Both are Ecores. The size difference in the gaskets is difficult to pick out at first glance. They are close enough in size that you could interchange them. Champion Laboratories uses a color coding system to make sure the right gasket ends up being used in each application. The ST16 has a medium and a small band of yellow on the outer diameter of it's gasket. The ST3600 has a long band of yellow and a short band of blue to distinguish it.

I agree with you - mounting wise the ST16 is not going to cause a problem as it's gasket is so close to the diameter of the ST3600 / ST3614.


Gasket Diameter for ST3600 & St3614
O.D. 2.834
I.D. 2.462
Thickness .200

Gasket Diameter for ST16
O.D. 2.734
I.D. 2.430
Thickness .226
After that discussion I had the bug to change my oil that was due anyway, so I bought some oil and an ST16 filter while I was at wally world this weekend.

What I found was that the ST3614 and the ST16 have the exact same threads and the gasket appears to be the same as well. I put them side by side and then stacked them up and took some pics.

Also, the filter fit with plenty of room to spare on my 22RE. Bigger filter and still fits is a win/win.

On a side note, the last St3614 I bought was the first one since they changed to the new ecore version and I have to say I'm impressed. When I loosened the filter I spun it off quick like I always do to minimize spillage, but there wasn't a single drop of leakage. Worried that there was something wrong, I looked into it and gave it a shake and you could hear the oil in it, but the new anti-drainback valve wouldn't let any of it out. That's the first time since I've had the truck that it didn't make a mess when I took the filter off. Impressive!

Anyhoo, here's the pics:







There doesn't appear to be any difference in my eyes...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
me likey,,,,,!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
905 Posts
a FRAM PH8A also fits ... but BAD IDEA ...probabably the worst thing you could do .

on inital start up .. the timing tensioner is the first point in the oiling system , very critical to get oil FAST ..

larger filter = longer pressure build up time = reduced initial speed of delivery of oil = premature failier of tensioner .
 

·
Banned
'95 Toyota 4x4 xcab
Joined
·
1,110 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
So with the 3614 being one of the smallest filters on the rack the 22re is the only motor that's reliable? :lol:

Give me a break...

For starters the filter has an anti-drainback valve so once its pumped up it stays pumped up so that entire argument is moot. And secondly even if it didn't the filter sits at such an angle that it stays half full anyway, and half full on a bigger filter is even more oil available at startup for circulation...

No matter how you slice it it's a good thing to have a bigger filter. Higher flow rate, less restriction, more filtration, higher oil capacity...

To each his own though. No one is going to hate you for not using it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
905 Posts
BAD advice ... been there done that . and your wrong .. anti-drainback does not mean pressure.

originally TOYOTA used the ph8A filter back in the early 80's ... it was a dealer instastalled filter on every oil change , untill the tensioners started failing .. THEY soon went back to the original small filter from japan ..

Inital start up is the most crutial part of any engine . failier to pressure , can result in damage .. were talkin' miliseconds .


like it or not , those are the facts .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
A quick look at the spec's of the PH8A size filter on the Wix look up page reveals that this filter uses the same gasket as the PH16. The PH8A is a taller version of the PH16.

It should be noted that the SuperTech is a limited line of filters. They aren't going to have something for every application.

Within the Wix line here are some to consider:

51773 Height 6.982 / Outer Diameter 3.663 (Two quart version of 51515)
51515 Height 5.178 / Outer Diameter 3.660 (PH8A size)
51085 Height 3.790 / Outer Diameter 3.660 (PH16 size)
 

·
Banned
'95 Toyota 4x4 xcab
Joined
·
1,110 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
slacker said:
BAD advice ... been there done that . and your wrong .. anti-drainback does not mean pressure.

originally TOYOTA used the ph8A filter back in the early 80's ... it was a dealer instastalled filter on every oil change , untill the tensioners started failing .. THEY soon went back to the original small filter from japan ..

Inital start up is the most crutial part of any engine . failier to pressure , can result in damage .. were talkin' miliseconds .


like it or not , those are the facts .

Btw, the word is FAILURE jackass...

In your own words you say that the bigger filter is bad because it takes longer to build pressure, but then when you find out the filter has an anti-drainback valve in it you say that doesn't matter. If the filter is already full it's going to build pressure one hell of a lot faster than a 3614 with no anti-drainback valve.


What's with trolls like you?


Don't have anything better to do than make a big deal out of nothing?


Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and some of them stink. Like yours. You can't call BS on someone and tell them they're giving bad advice on nothing more than your own - misinformed - opinion as basis. Provide some facts from a reputable source and I'll consider your opinion. Otherwise go tell the guys with $60000 Corvettes that use a filter over twice as big as a 3614 that they are destroying their engines and see how many laugh at you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
905 Posts
ovrrdrive said:
Btw, the word is FAILURE jackass...

In your own words you say that the bigger filter is bad because it takes longer to build pressure, but then when you find out the filter has an anti-drainback valve in it you say that doesn't matter. If the filter is already full it's going to build pressure one hell of a lot faster than a 3614 with no anti-drainback valve.


What's with trolls like you?


Don't have anything better to do than make a big deal out of nothing?


Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and some of them stink. Like yours. You can't call BS on someone and tell them they're giving bad advice on nothing more than your own - misinformed - opinion as basis. Provide some facts from a reputable source and I'll consider your opinion. Otherwise go tell the guys with $60000 Corvettes that use a filter over twice as big as a 3614 that they are destroying their engines and see how many laugh at you.

ohhh waaaaaa ... Gee that hurts



such an additude ..... punk !



I really dont care what YOU think .. I'm just helpin' the "newbie" from makin' a mistake .


.
 

·
Banned
'95 Toyota 4x4 xcab
Joined
·
1,110 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
And I've never met a canuk that wasn't a dumbass...

You're helping newbs get more confused by posing your unsubstantiated opinions as fact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
The anti-drain back valve prevents oil from leaving the way it came in. It's purpose is to maintain some oil in the filter for start ups. How much oil remains in the filter is somewhat dependent on the angle to which it attaches to the engine. Oil on the outer side of the media is always able to seep though and out the center tube over time.

The purpose of a by-pass valve is to provide a supply of oil to the engine no matter what. It's activation is triggered by differential pressure. Pressure into the filter is compared with that leaving the filter. If there is too much of a pressure difference then the valve opens letting some (but not all) unfiltered oil return to the engine.

If a by-pass filter can open up quickly enough it will prevent damage to the filter media and will also maintain a constant supply of oil to the engine. A typical by-pass valve setting for the filter's we've been discussing is 8-11 psi.

To prevent a dry start up some people like to pre-fill their oil filters before installing a new one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
905 Posts
well hey ... ignorance and predigest aside ...


you put on the even bigger filter (bigger is better , as you stated) ... and time the oil pressure light ..
 

·
Bring On The MUD!!!!!
'83 Pickup SR5
Joined
·
2,334 Posts
hey guys. watch yourselves. this isnt high school anymore. you can handle differences calmly and without stupid name calling!

Cam

P.S. Dont make me close the thread!
 

·
Banned
'95 Toyota 4x4 xcab
Joined
·
1,110 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
slacker said:
well hey ... ignorance and predigest aside ...


you put on the even bigger filter (bigger is better , as you stated) ... and time the oil pressure light ..
I have no prejudice towards you at all. As a matter of fact I've always enjoyed your responses, until now that is.

Keeping with my beliefs of keeping both feet out of my mouth, I refrained from commenting until i did a cold start up on my truck this morning just in case it actually did take 30 seconds to pump up like you insinuate...

I'm happy to report that the oil light went off on start up of the engine. If I had to judge the time the engine was actually running that the oil light was on, taking into account that the light bulb itself takes a measurable time to go out after the voltage is cut due to it not being LED, I'd have to estimate it at around .0000005 to .000001 of a second that it took to pressurize the system.

In my opinion that is a safe enough margin that I will take my chances with to enjoy the many benefits of the larger filter. This entire argument has been kind of lackluster and ridiculous...

And Cam I beg to differ with you on one point. This thread has put me right back in the middle of high school. I mean after all, where else do you see people like this guy poke at people trying to make them look stupid for no reason with little to no actual factual representation of their arguments other than "they heard" or "uncle bob told me that..." ?

This guy threw me right back into 10th grade with the exception of the fact that back then and in person this would have been settled a lot more quickly than it has been on here. The black eye would have been purty to look at for the next few weeks too.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,353 Posts
dumbass.......

why dont you relocate your filter so its not sideways? then you dont have to worry about the filter but rather the hoses to the filter. i think your oil light test is gay, you need an actual gauge. personaly ive been using the small 3614 on mine and i havent had any issues so ill stick to it. although i was a pure one micronic guy i have decided to try a super tech filter and then cut it in half after im done like im gonna go with the pure one filter. i think a high volume oil pump might solve the problem you are guys are pms'ing about
 

·
Banned
'95 Toyota 4x4 xcab
Joined
·
1,110 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
There is no issue retard... :rolleyes:

Also according to Dr. Spock an oil filter relocation kit will only amplify this phantom problem though by further increasing the distance the oil has to travel before it gets into the tensioner.

If you're going to try embarrassing yourself at least read and understand the issue at hand...

:nutkick: :jerkit:
 

·
Fixing 1 Piece at a Time
89 4x4 Pickup
Joined
·
121 Posts
Wait a second . . . we're supposed to put oil in these things? :naughty:
 

·
YOTA Master
'93 2wd P/U
Joined
·
2,434 Posts
Wow!

I find myself amazed at the things that set people off.

More oil capacity is better at maintaining a stable oil temperature under loads. But how much more oil does that filter actually hold?

Looks like 4oz to me. Just what is the difference in 128oz and 132oz to the overall picture anyhow?

Get a good quality oil filter and let it rest.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
engine lubrication without emotions

There is no issue retard... :rolleyes:

Also according to Dr. Spock an oil filter relocation kit will only amplify this phantom problem though by further increasing the distance the oil has to travel before it gets into the tensioner.

If you're going to try embarrassing yourself at least read and understand the issue at hand...

:nutkick: :jerkit:
----------------------------------------------

I very rarely jump into such an exciting exchange; however, I find it difficult to read error run amuck.

filter orientation
The distance has nothing to do with it in this case. A very long distance >20 ft. may increase the flow resistance unless a large hose is used but I do not believe the kits for these engines typically involve placing the oil filter in the trunk. Designing the oil filter interface with the engine so that the filter is oriented facing up is the best because there is no drain-back.

cold starts and filter size
When an engine starts, the amount of oil left in the filter is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the amount of oil that must be pumped into the filter to fill it so that oil can begin to flow to the bearings. A large filter that is half full is much worse than a small filter that is half full.

oil pumps
I am a big fan of large-capacity oil pumps (not to be confused with high-pressure oil pumps). A large-capacity oil pump requires several more horsepower to drive them resulting in less engine efficiency. That is why they are seldom used. All the makers are chasing more miles per gallon and unfortunately lubrication is sometimes compromised.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
905 Posts
well said ...

bottom line .. (in my opinion) if you want more oil capasity .. increase the size of the oil pan . NOT the filter .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
800 Posts
Should you ever want to make a claim for damage caused by an oil filter it better be the one spec'd for the engine otherwise it will probably be denied. So use larger filters at your own risk.

While not ideal, as has been pointed out, the way VW & Audi increased the oil capacity on it's Passat & Audi 1.8T's was to use a larger oil filter.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top