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Discussion Starter #21
a hammer and a brass drift (buy some brass rod, 10mm or 20mm diameter) can be used to press bearings in, but is not as easy to do as using a press to do it (you have to keep changing where you press so it never gets cocked in the hole)
Is there a way to get it off and then back on using an impact wrench and an adapter? I'm guessing that getting it off would be doable, but pressing it back on would require some sort of long, wide and strong metal cylinder, or some sort of "jig" with 3 or 4 strong bolts and end plates and a cup to press it on. Not sure if this makes sense. I know about the hammer it back on method, but as you said it's easy to cock it. But a hydraulic press would be difficult for me to use given my living situation. Nowhere to store it and it would be a very rarely used tool.
 

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"Is there a way to get it off and then back on using a..."

There is not going to be just one answer to that question, it depends. Sometimes, you have to pull a gear off of a shaft, for that you must have a gear puller (a "Y" shaped piece with several strong holes, and an assortment of threaded bolts that thread into holes in the gear, and a middle screw to push against the shaft), sometimes you need a different kind of gear puller that has narrow shims to grip below the gear and apparatus to pull the gear off, sometimes you need a big round tube to push against a housing with, and a collection of shapes to pull a bearing race out with, one time I used a big bolt, a bunch of washers and a slide hammer to pull out a bearing race. There are also pilot bearing pullers (for pulling very thin walled, small diameter bearings and races out of blind holes), and the list goes on and on. The more clever you are, and handy, and research you do of internet videos, the more likely you can solve those pulling challenges with simple tools, but sometimes it takes longer to make the tool than simply driving to Harbor Freight and buying the set, its a toss up.

All of the above will be rarely used tools, which will take up a fair amount of space.
Some of them can be rented from your local auto parts store (some allow borrowing).

Sometimes you simply have to take a transmission case to your local machine shop and pay them to do it.

Also, once you get into your Mitsubishi transmission and diagnose what is worn that is causing it to slip out of gear, you may have to strip down the gear-sets to replace synchros or something, and that takes another level of challenges.

Rather than asking "what if" questions here, spend some time researching how to rebuild your transmission, on Mitsubishi forums, and see what it involves. Then, if you have a specific question, bring it back, with pictures/video and we might be able to help.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
"Is there a way to get it off and then back on using a..."

There is not going to be just one answer to that question, it depends. Sometimes, you have to pull a gear off of a shaft, for that you must have a gear puller (a "Y" shaped piece with several strong holes, and an assortment of threaded bolts that thread into holes in the gear, and a middle screw to push against the shaft), sometimes you need a different kind of gear puller that has narrow shims to grip below the gear and apparatus to pull the gear off, sometimes you need a big round tube to push against a housing with, and a collection of shapes to pull a bearing race out with, one time I used a big bolt, a bunch of washers and a slide hammer to pull out a bearing race. There are also pilot bearing pullers (for pulling very thin walled, small diameter bearings and races out of blind holes), and the list goes on and on. The more clever you are, and handy, and research you do of internet videos, the more likely you can solve those pulling challenges with simple tools, but sometimes it takes longer to make the tool than simply driving to Harbor Freight and buying the set, its a toss up.

All of the above will be rarely used tools, which will take up a fair amount of space.
Some of them can be rented from your local auto parts store (some allow borrowing).

Sometimes you simply have to take a transmission case to your local machine shop and pay them to do it.

Also, once you get into your Mitsubishi transmission and diagnose what is worn that is causing it to slip out of gear, you may have to strip down the gear-sets to replace synchros or something, and that takes another level of challenges.

Rather than asking "what if" questions here, spend some time researching how to rebuild your transmission, on Mitsubishi forums, and see what it involves. Then, if you have a specific question, bring it back, with pictures/video and we might be able to help.
Will do. It's just that I have a wheel bearing kit I got to replace the bearings on my Kia Rio, and was wondering if parts of it can be used for some of this. I realize that I'll still need other tools, like 2 or 3-claw pullers, and the one that looks like a pincer-style guillotine. I've loaned those from auto stores, to get other parts off, like the wheel bearing race off of a hub that still had some life in it instead of an angle grinder that most people use for this. I'l probably also need other kinds of pullers and adapters.

I'm willing to buy special tools for this. It'll still come out to way less than any decent shop would charge me and they're good to have for future work. And I can probably loan others for free. It's just the storage issue with a press. Buying one just isn't viable, unless mini-sized (in which case I would LOVE to have one, for this and other jobs). But, as you say, I won't know if I have to use a press until I actually do the job. If I need a press, I'll figure out some way to use one. If I don't, then I don't. I'm betting that I don't and will be able to find alternate solutions.
 

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2001 4Runner SR5; 2013 Camry Hybrid XLE
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If you have patience and the information, you can rebuild the trans. It certainly will be more difficult than a typical engine rebuild, but much of that has to do with the pullers and such, as others have mentioned.
Since it is essentially an Eclipse, I am certain that you can find specific details on an Eclipse/DSM forum if you really need that sort of specific help. Otherwise, you should be fine with a factory workshop manual or equivalent Haynes/Chilton's manual. Be willing to detail each and every step you take to disassemble it, which in today's era of cell phone cameras is far easier than it was until just recently. Literally every step - digital photos are essentially free, so don't be cheap on them.
Use quality tools if you can, because you don't want to scrimp on putting things together properly and cheap tools often don't fit well. Use quality replacement parts, too, not generic parts if you can find the proper name-brand items. I used a Torrington taper bearing once (although technically Torrington is a name brand) because I didn't want to wait on a proper NTN or NSK bearing, and the trans it went into now makes a whirring noise constantly. I should have waited... If the item is supposed to be replaced and not reused (like axle seals), don't cheap out and reuse them. If you need sealant, I recommend Permatex Ultra Grey; it works beautifully on transmissions when properly applied.
I also recommend any service be done with proper torque specs on everything that has a listed torque spec. And for the items without spec, I recommend the standardized JIS torque spec for the fastener size.
I would wish you good luck, but I don't believe you need it. You just need the confidence and the patience to do this, which I think you do.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Thanks. I'm pretty sure I can do it. Above I listed some other work I've done on different cars (one a Camry) that seemed way out of my range when I first considered doing them, but despite a few snags along the way they all worked out fine (I learned the hard way that when you press in a bearing you have to press on the race with the interference fit, e.g. on the inner race when pressing onto a hub).

Hell, I did a much better job replacing the master cylinder on my mom's Camry than the cut rate shop that did it. Instead of mushy, to the floor and not quite 100% braking, I gave her solid resistance, short travel and 100% braking.

The key, I found, was to be incredibly thorough, in researching the task and understanding how it's done and how things work, before undertaking it, get high quality parts, use good tools, and work slowly and deliberately and don't rush anything or take short cuts.

And watch lots and lots of YouTube videos (thanks, ChrisFix, whoever you are!). It's not rocket science (although the design of cars is, especially the better ones). It's just a bunch of parts that are meant to accomplish this or that function, not magic.

And yes, I have and use a torque wrench for anything important (the wheel fender liners and door trim screws can be done by feel). I get good parts, use good tools, and the right tool for a given task. And if a part needs to be replaced, I replace it, whether it's a washer, bearing or seal. No cutting corners to save a few bucks on something that your life might depend on.

Plus, I may not have to take the transaxle apart, if I'm lucky. The FSM says that jumping gears could be due to a loose or broken shift linkage or transaxle screws that have loosened and slightly cocking the transmission against the crankshaft. The latter could be why the clutch is fried. Even if this fixes the issue, I might want to take it apart eventually, since after 28 years it could probably do with some new parts and reconditioning.
 

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It's not for the faint of heart, but if you're wrenching skills are good its doable. I've done my Corolla transmissions a few times. I do now have a cheap hydraulic press. There shouldn't be too many loose bearings in a modern transaxle, they should be almost all bearing units, I think there were a couple needle bearings on mine that were loose.
If you're going through the trouble, you should source all the bearings and change them out.
In the Corolla transaxle, the common source of popping out of 5th gear was worn bearing allowing too much runout.
Pulling, and reinstalling a transaxle is doable with a bunch of jacks, but it was amazingly easy once I got a transmission jack.
Before that I had worked out a system of engine hoist, three hydraulic jacks, ratcheting straps to pull out and install transaxle.
The transaxle needs a whole variety of 2/3, L arm pulllers, some customized with angle grinder, bearing splitters, threaded rods, piles of assorted cylindrical things I got from military auctions, washers, etc.
 

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A manual transmission is nowhere near as complicated as an automatic, so worth a shot if you're up for it. Bottle jack and front wheel bearing press kit won't do you any good - you need a bearing puller (that you can use to pull gears with) and maybe a regular 3-jaw puller, among potentially other tools depending on transmission. Shop press would make your life much easier, but it's not a must. If you've got some fabrication skills and spare steel around, you can certainly make a shop press, I guess it comes down to whether you have more time or money.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
A manual transmission is nowhere near as complicated as an automatic, so worth a shot if you're up for it. Bottle jack and front wheel bearing press kit won't do you any good - you need a bearing puller (that you can use to pull gears with) and maybe a regular 3-jaw puller, among potentially other tools depending on transmission. Shop press would make your life much easier, but it's not a must. If you've got some fabrication skills and spare steel around, you can certainly make a shop press, I guess it comes down to whether you have more time or money.
I'm guessing/hoping that I can use the same basic kinds of tools I used to get the inner race off the hub when I replaced the wheel bearings. Basically, something to get under the bearing you want to pull out that you can attach several thick bolts (usually 2 of them) to, a plate or bar at the other end of the bolts, and then a center bolt that pushes against the shaft, that you either slowly turn with a hand wrench, or use an impact wrench on. It's basically what a press does.

But, a mini press would be nice to have. I can probably design a decent one. I just need to get the parts, cut to the right size and with the right bolt holes. There are also designs on the internet. Ideally, someone makes a kit I can order and assemble, and then disassemble and stick in a closet when I'm not using it. Again, money's not the issue, space to store a press is.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
It's not for the faint of heart, but if you're wrenching skills are good its doable. I've done my Corolla transmissions a few times. I do now have a cheap hydraulic press. There shouldn't be too many loose bearings in a modern transaxle, they should be almost all bearing units, I think there were a couple needle bearings on mine that were loose.
If you're going through the trouble, you should source all the bearings and change them out.
In the Corolla transaxle, the common source of popping out of 5th gear was worn bearing allowing too much runout.
Pulling, and reinstalling a transaxle is doable with a bunch of jacks, but it was amazingly easy once I got a transmission jack.
Before that I had worked out a system of engine hoist, three hydraulic jacks, ratcheting straps to pull out and install transaxle.
The transaxle needs a whole variety of 2/3, L arm pulllers, some customized with angle grinder, bearing splitters, threaded rods, piles of assorted cylindrical things I got from military auctions, washers, etc.
I'm hoping that I don't have to do it, given all the other things I need to do to get the car back to street legal shape, and that the issue of the gear popping out is due to something outside the transmission. But, if it's the transmission, I'll do it. I've got all summer and then some before it gets too cold to work on the car outside (and there is no inside as I don't have a garage or one I can borrow). And I'll do it right, replacing worn parts in addition to solving this issue. Might as well rebuild the thing, although with under 80k, I'm guessing it's in decent shape and doesn't need too much work. Yes, a 28 year old car with less than 80k on it, that's been cross-country and back twice.

But, first I have to do some research, into manual transmissions in general and mine specifically. Plus the car's been sitting out for so long that some of the brakes have seized and I have to fix that too. Hopefully the calipers aren't shot and I won't need to get new ones, but there's definitely some work there. Plus lots of rust to clean out and treat, new timing and drive belts and matching pulleys and tensioners, probably a new water pump, flush out and replace all fluids (and this car's got a bunch), various other odds and ends to fix. It'll be a fun summer.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Hey, in case anyone's still monitoring this thread, I have a question about manual transmissions unrelated to the issues addressed so far. It's basically just simple curiosity, nothing to do with anything practical let alone Camrys or Toyotas.

As I've been figuring out how a manual transmission works, at least the most common modern type with synchro gearing to allow shifts without gear clashing (assuming everything's in good shape and you're clutching properly), I was just wondering if there's such a thing as a "dual clutch" design, in which in addition to the standard clutch on the input shaft connecting the engine crankshaft to the transmission, there's also a clutch on the output shaft connecting it to the differential.

The idea would be that when you press the clutch pedal, both clutches would release, and the transmission would be detached from both the engine and wheels, and thus either spinning freely without a load, or not moving at all. At this point, you could shift to a different gear, without really needing the complexity of synchro gearing, just the bare minimum set of gears you need to get the desired number of drive gears. There would be no gear clash because there's no load from either the input or output shaft. Then, you release the clutch pedal and both clutches would reengage, and power is transferred from the engine to the wheels again, in the desired gear.

I'm sure someone's thought of this and maybe even tried to build a transmission like this. Just wondering if it's ever gone beyond the conceptual or prototype stage and into production vehicles. Again, nothing to do with anything, just curious. I have an engineering and tinkerer background so these things pop into my head sometimes.
 

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there is no need for such complexity, the synchros do a fabulous job of matching gear speed during changes

for gears that get a lot of use OEMs use double and triple cone synchros, which provide huge surface area

Note that when shifting up, the synchros easily deal with the rotation of the little gear to match speed.
When shifting down, the next transmission gear must be sped up to match revs with the drive wheels, and that puts a lot of strain on the synchro.

Note that a driver of a manual transmission, one who has worked to develop their skill, can easily match revs when downshifting, by putting the gearshift in neutral and releasing the clutch and blipping the throttle, and then pressing the clutch again to select the lower gear without putting any strain at all on the synchro. A good driver can do this all in an instant, without even thought. It feels amazing to develop such a skill so the gears slide in and out like a hot knife through butter. It also makes it possible to drive without using the clutch at all (if done extremely well).
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Is what you're referring to what's called double-clutching?

Also, while I have no problem believing that synchros are the way to go, has the idea I suggested above ever been tried? Again, pure curiosity. Plus, sometimes you need to eliminate seemingly promising solutions that turn out to be dead ends or inferior approaches to arrive at a better solution and understand why it's better.
 

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if it ever was, would have been back in the birth of the automobile because synchros have been used since at least the '30s

Yes, it is called double-clutching, and rev matching, and probably a bunch of other names too. Most people simply jam it into the lower gear and leave it to the synchros to deal with the rest.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
I think I'll stick to shifting the traditional way rather than try to master double-clutching, although it does sound kind of cool and I imagine that combining the two results in truly smooth shifting, so perhaps it's worth mastering just for that.

By the way, when you double-clutch, do you actually have to press and release the clutch pedal twice, or can you leave it pressed and just linger in neutral a bit instead of directly shifting to the next gear, and if the latter, how long, typically?

Also, come to think of it, I sort of have been double-clutching all along, when using engine braking to slow down the car and save the brakes. It's been several years, but IIRC what I did was ease off the throttle, press the clutch pedal, shift into neutral, wait a second or two, then shift to the next lower gear, and release the clutch pedal. I intuitively knew that if I didn't wait a bit, I'd put way too much load on some engine or transmission part and possibly either break or weaken it, leading to catastrophic failure down the line, if not immediately.

Was this bad practice, and possibly what helped burn the clutch or damage the transmission?

And, I'm still curious about my idea, not as a practical alternative to synchros as I'm sure there are very good reasons for why it either doesn't work, or doesn't work nearly as well as synchros do, but just to find out if it's workable and if so why it was never pursued. But I'll do that on my own time, and it's not a high priority now.
 

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There was nothing "wrong" with the Mitsubishi made Eagle Talons, but time has relegated them to the scrap heap. I would not automatically say that Toyota was that much better, more that the Mitsubishi cars were much more performance oriented. Saw 3 3000 GTs on the road two days ago moving along nicely.
The problem with jumping out of 1st gear is precise diagnosis without experience is going to kill you ten ways to sunday. Much better to either replace the tranny with used, or get someone with on hand model specific experience on board your quest. I did a lot of manual Z car transmissions, to the point where I could build one from a bucket of parts.
If you insist on your current course, try first to get the linkage disconnected from the transmission with it in 1st, then drive it and see if it jumps out of gear. If not then the linkage adjustments would be highly suspect.
After that it is internal to the transmission and this is where EXPERIENCE IS EVERYTHING.
If you are not willing to pay for experience plan on researching that specific issue with jumping out of 1st gear.
Another test is to get the car going 30 mph in 5th gear, push in the clutch and shut off the engine (never release the clutch until the test is over). Have someone else operate the car and listen to the transmission with a techs stethoscope on the shifter for bearing noises inside the transmission. Downshift as your slow down from 30 mph. It is easy to hear a bad bearing, which confirms the need to tear into the transmission.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Well, if this was a fairly recently made car that was still worth something that I needed to use regularly, I'd probably get it looked at and if worth it fixed professionally. But it's not. I haven't driven it in nearly 5 years, and have another car for regular driving needs. And, considering what it would cost to fix not just this but a bunch of other issues, it's just not worth it, definitely much more than the car is worth or would be after all the fixes and restoration. In fact from a purely practical point of view, I'd be better off selling or scraping the car and just moving on.

But, for various reasons, mostly sentimental but also because I'm a tinkerer and stubborn, I'd rather not, and given that it would cost much more than I'm willing or really able to spend to get it back in shape, my only real choice is to do it myself. If I take my time and am thorough, methodical and careful, it should be worth my trouble.

In fact, even if I try my best still can't get it back in shape, and thus will have "wasted" a bunch of time and money on a white elephant, I'll still have enjoyed the attempt, and will have picked up some knowledge and skills that will hopefully be useful on a future project. So now it comes down to figuring out how to do it myself, as best as I reasonably can. Of course this isn't the site to solicit specific advice for that.

Also, you can't really compare this and the related 3000GT to Camrys and most of Toyota's lineup, except maybe the Supra and such. Toyotas are mainly meant to be practical, daily use cars, while these were not very practical sports cars mean to be driven for fun. Because their uses are different, they were designed and built differently. I bought mine knowing this, and haven't regretted it at all. I've just moved on from that, but am not yet willing to completely let go. Nor do I really have to, at this point.

Plus, for my needs, the Talon was a lot more practical than I expected. The hatch made hauling various things a lot easier than a trunk would have (especially given the diminutive "trunk"). The turbo and AWD meant that handling in snow, rain and ice was safer than with a less powerful FWD car. And being low to the ground gave me better road feel, which makes me feel safer. But yeah, I got it for the fun, not the practicality. And since it probably still has some life in it, I'd like to fix it and hang onto it a while longer, then pass it on to someone who can appreciate it. There's still a decent-sized enthusiast following for this model, and probably will be for some time.
 

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"as I'm sure there are very good reasons for why it doesn't work"

I just remembered why no one can put a clutch after the transmission: the loads are way too big, it wouldn't last.

The clutch works, before the transmission, because the power from the engine is not yet multiplied by the transmission.

A good way to get a feel for how much is to look at the size of the driveshaft on a car with a rear transaxle (engine in front, transmission and clutch in back, with a skinny little driveshaft connecting them), like some exotic Italian Lancias and Alfas from the '60s and '70s. Normal cars who's driveshaft is after the transmission need a great big diameter tube to deal with the forces.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
"as I'm sure there are very good reasons for why it doesn't work"

I just remembered why no one can put a clutch after the transmission: the loads are way too big, it wouldn't last.

The clutch works, before the transmission, because the power from the engine is not yet multiplied by the transmission.

A good way to get a feel for how much is to look at the size of the driveshaft on a car with a rear transaxle (engine in front, transmission and clutch in back, with a skinny little driveshaft connecting them), like some exotic Italian Lancias and Alfas from the '60s and '70s. Normal cars who's driveshaft is after the transmission need a great big diameter tube to deal with the forces.
Well, I'm sure that a strong enough clutch could be built to handle the increased load. It's probably more that it's not cost and weight-effective and there are better ways of meshing gears. The thing about Rube Goldberg solutions isn't that they can't be made to work, it's that they're more complicated and less efficient than they need to be.

Also, aren't propeller shafts thicker also because they're so long, and the torsional stresses demand it for something as long so they don't break, and transmit as much of the power as possible with minimal twisting and power loss? I wonder if this is also why they're often cylindrical rather than solid.
 

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no, the rear transaxle driveshafts are the same length
they are so much smaller because the torque they have to transmit is that much smaller
 

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Discussion Starter #40
no, the rear transaxle driveshafts are the same length
they are so much smaller because the torque they have to transmit is that much smaller
I think we're talking past each other here. You were referring to a rear transaxle and I somehow thought you meant a rear wheel drive with the transmission in front and propeller shaft connecting it to the rear diff (I was doing some other things and was probably distracted).

Also, what do you mean by "same length"? Same length as what? There's only one drive shaft connecting the engine to the transmission, right? Were you referring to axle or CV shafts?

Anyway, we're veering off-track. I was just curious. No need to pursue it further.
 
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