[The Camry Man]

UPDATE.... THIS PROBLEM SOLVED BELOW.... = Front Temp Sensor & sticking SL Solenoid that controls Torque Converter.

1. After 89 G2 Trans swap
2. Randon in and out of O/D
3. Checked voltage at 5 pin black wire
4. O.D engages at 0 volts fine after 2 nd gear
5. All gear upshifting work Great
6. Now though I have NO DOWN SHIFT when coming to a stop
7. Voltage at 5 pin black just stays at 0 volts and I have to manually take it out of O/D to keep it from bucking hard when at 5 mph coming to a stop.
8. Yes! the voltage ALWAYS comes back and down shifts when I engage O/D OFF.
9. If I unplug the Tranny Speed Sensor it does the same thing except then the O/D light will flash saying code but never could get one after turning car off.

FYI:
This tranny came out of an identical 88 G2 year Camry with only 160k nice fluid and I drove it and had NO ISSUES. This is why I decided to use this tranny.
THe old tranny 212k black fluid just quit one day on my customer and had NO Forward and No Reverse but would lock in park OK.

I had my worker swap out the tranny's and the only issue he said having was he had a hard time till he found out the torque converter was not back far enough (Said he didn't try to bolt it in... hmmm ).

Anyway.. Went in fine after that.. no other issues until I picked it up to deliver and on my way back to town after 15 miles I noticed it popped out of O/D... then more and more as I drove it.
<THE DOWN SHIFT WAS GREAT AT THIS TIME>

So I proceeded to do the following:

1. Check all fluid levels and connections ...Perfect
2. Put it on the rack and hooked volt meter to 5 pin connector at black wire to SL solenoid. Ran up through gears fine and O/D would come correctly at 0 volts after 2 nd gear.
3. I held 55 mph for about 3 min when the voltage would return and it would shift back out of O/D... 2-3 seconds then 0 volts back into O?D ALL ON IT's OWN. :facepalm::facepalm: *Note* At no time would the gears change without the voltage causing it to. THis tells me it's an electrical issue...
4. Checked for codes or loose connections ... None
5. Dr. J said to unplug the Transmission Speed Sensor wire (located just in front of the drivers side axle).
6. Symptoms went away so I SWAPPED OUT FOR ANOTHER VSS off a rebuilt tranny I sitting on my shop.
7. Retested at 55 with the volt meter. :clap: Stayed in O/D.

OK so now I figured it was fixed till I noticed that it would NOT DOWN SHIFT when coming to a stop. hmmmm :facepalm: . Checked for codes ...None!

This is what I did next :

1. Unplugged VSS again Same symptoms. Hmm maybe bad used VSS ?
2. Swapped out solinoids SL, 1 & 2 ... No Change
3. double Checked fluid levels & codes .. Fine
4. Swapped out ECM No change
5. Swapped out ECT No Change

STUMPED... Wow this is a first for me!
Put it all back together and figurees I would drive it for a while and all was fine again till the 10 mile mark again and it started popping out of O/D again but not as bad... Kick down was fine... upshift is fine... seemed very random like bad connection hmmmm.
NO CHANGE IN THE DOWN SHIFT still have to do it manually to keep car from bucking. THe O/D would always come off with button and voltage returned. THis over ruled O/D brake problems.

After search I found this from Dr.J
Thanks for the compliments; my transmission expertise is mostly limited to the electrical diagnosis and the teardown of failed units.
When I did the shift lag time study on my Camry, I hooked up the test lights to each solenoid wire. By comparing the time between the light on and RPM drop it is possible to estimate how long it takes for each gear to apply. In addition you can see the solenoid operation sequence.
I also found the interesting downshift sequence by watching the test lights (and computer downshift commands).
With the gas pedal released, braking slowly, the tranny was in overdrive until 20 mph, then shifted to 2nd for a second, then back to 3rd and when the car was almost stopping it got down to 2nd and 1st.
The downshift command is generated based on closed idle TP sensor input, the speed sensor in the cluster signal vs. tranny speed sensor, and the stop light switch.

Tomorrow I am gonna swap over some parts off a running loaner Camry that drives great.
OK Maybe I can get some sleep now he he :disappoin

 

[Doctor J]

Actually I build LED indicator box that I could stick on my hood.
I used male and female connectors from the junk yard car so I could just plug in my tester and watch the ECT commands to solenoids

 

[Doctor J]

Brief summary:
The shift timing mainly dictated by throttle opening angle:
More gas - later shift
Solenoid 1 (S1) is on at all times ignition is on (even in P,R and N) ranges except in 3rd and 4th gears.
Solenoid 2 (S2) is on during 2nd and 3rd gears
Solenoid 3 (SL) controls the torque converter lock up
The number of possible gears with 2 solenoids is 4 (2!) = 4
The voltage on the solenoid should be either 0 (off) or 12 (on) volts
In o/d solenoids # 1 and 2 are OFF, but SL may be on or off

 

[The Camry Man]

Getting worse

Wow that last post of 4 (2) =4 and all is very confusing.

I understand the other stuff.

Still got the meter on dash while driving.

Thinking it is ONLY ELECTRICAL because the only change is when voltage changes from a command.

Ok getting to the end of my rope.
Drove it home for a test yesterday after swapping the Cluster and TPS. and same issues after 5- 10 miles..

Seems the more I drive the worse it gets. nothing I swap seems to make a difference and checking for codes in morning..

Gonna trace the electrical wiring harness to what is actually controlling the #2 (Black Wire) solenoid from randomly get voltage on and off .
Now doing it AT ANY SPEED even coasting down a hill in neutral

If the ECM then Ill swap again but did that once before.

Thought it might be a torque converter locking up on its own but only changes are when voltage changes.

Something is telling it to shift in and out.

Amazing cause both these cars ran and drove perfect before tranny slip in #1. The tranny change shouldnt have anything to do with electrical.


WHAT WOULD BE A SYMPTOM OF TORQUE CONVERTER DAMAGE FROM NOT PROPERLY LINING UP AND FORCING IT IN WITH THE BOLTS?



:headbang::thumbsdow

 

['88 All-Trac]

My Geo suffered a similar problem (misaligned TC) that got forced in with the hardware. It drove just fine until I hit a big bump, and then all the tension put on the pump shattered it. If the Camry transmissions are the same, you wouldn't just lose overdrive... You'd lose all drive in any gear.

 

[Doctor J]

i at this point I would be doing test drive with manual mode and solenoids unplugged.
L-is first
2nd -is D
D is O/d
start with l accelerate to 20mph shift to 2 accelerate to 40 mph shift to D
The TC will not engage
leaking TC will cause 'no drive' for first 2 minutes
assuming there is no electrical problems and reverse is good the forward clutch may be bad

 

[The Camry Man]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH .

I will perform that test Doc and post results.

Have a good day!

 

[The Camry Man]

Test Results

Test Done and here are the results;

1. Unplugged the 5 pin connector going to the solenoids and speed sensor at transmission.
2. left the volt meter hooked to black wire at 5 pin connector S2.
3. test drove in MANUAL MODE L to 20mph, 2nd to 40, then D
4. Car drives perfect when I get in D i can push throttle to make it downshift to 3rd. but when I am in 2 and come to a stop it will NOT DOWN SHIFT BY ITSELF I must shift to first to eliminates bucking.
5. Tested at a stop and shifted it to D from P and the engine died like it went to a higher gear and converter locked. Is This normal for MANUAL MODE... thanks.

 

[Doctor J]

No the engine should not stall if transmission works normally, if you are shifting from p to d and engine is in idle (even if you are actually shifting into o/d). If engine stalls I will do a stall test and check for the stall speed

 

[The Camry Man]

Remember that it was in Manual Mode?

It would stall when going from park to D

Also going going from park to 2 but not quite kill the engine.

When all plugged back in NO STALLING AT ALL!

Have a great Day! I have a feeling today is the day I will find the problem :naughty:

 

[Doctor J]

Interesting! Honestly I hear it the first time that unplugging 5 pin connector will cause engine to stall when shifting into the second and D. The TC should allow engine to work in any gear without stalling; it never happened at least on the cars I tested (including mine!)

 

[The Camry Man]

Solved !

OK I FOUND THE CAUSE AT LEAST SOME OF IT!

I unplugged the BROWN Temp Sending unit on the FRONT of the drivers side Coolant Tower Manifold.
HOLDS O/D Fine Until I Let the O/D Buton out or Press THrottle pedal to down shift.

Although I swapped out a used one and plugged it back in after test and the symptoms returned (Only While it is plugged in).

1.) Does this send info to the ECM about if it is warm enough for O/D ?

Maybe it is sending a false signal randomly that the engine is not ready for O/D?

or

Fault in Wiring or ECM?


2.) Also even with sensor unplugged the car bucks at 15mph while still in higher gear hmmmm
Gonna hook up a tach and do stall test


Passed Stall test BUT still Bucks while coming to a stop at 15mph in D or 2 ...UNLESS I MANUALLY Let out the O/D button at 30mph and Shift to 2 at 15 mph.

I checked S2 has voltage till SL(O/D) kicks in then SL has voltage while in O/D and SL turns off when I get back down to 40Mph.
BK (Brake Light signal is turning off SL when pushed.

While at freeway speed I CAN punch the throttle and it will unlock or down shift NO PROBLEM.



I tested with another exact Camry and while in Manual Mode it DOES NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS like this so

I am guessing that the Torque Converter or O/D is not un locking? I will go test to see at what speed the volts come back to black wire at 5 pin connector.
Should I connect a volt meter to the SL solenoid and check or is there another way to check if O/D is coming off?

Thank You
:thumbsup:

 

[Doctor J]

If it passes the stall test in drive with maximum rpm between 2300..2600 it is probably good; with 5p connector disconnected the TC should normally stay unlocked at all times, uless lock up control valve or solenoid is leaking. If problem is more evident when engine is hot, I would use 300ohm, 2 watt resistor in place of coolant sensor to check it out (after engine is warmed up)

 

[The Camry Man]

First off Thanks for your attention

Thanks so much and I Agree

I just took it on a 40 mile round trip with eveything plugged in and new temp sensor.


RESULT #1
I had voltage meter to SL = Votage I could feel lockup... Mashed pedal at 55 then no volts till lockup again... any speed lower than 40 I couldnt tell if it was unlocking but probably was.

RESULT #2
In D ... Unless pedal was 3/4 it would imediatly shift to 3 then i mashed pedal to go to 2nd then felt 3rd again( after 40 MPH Voltage at SL YES... Then O/D and SL voltage 0 for 1 sec then voltage YES.

RESULT #3
When coming to a stop the transmission would stay in 4th until I let ou the O/d Button

Then Stay in 3rd or 2nd till I shift to 2

then stayed in 2 or 3rd untill I shifted to 1

EVERY TIME I HAD TO DOWNSHIFT IT OR BUCKING WOULD OCCUR.

PS.. A few times I stopped and swapped out the ECT but no chnges.

Thanks so much again. I do have another bench already rebuilt tranny ready to put in but want to do my testing while still in car what is required.

Customer gave me plenty of time and I set him up with a loaner so NO RUSH :clap:

It is just as "The Camry Man" I like to not just find the problem but do the tests to find out how I got to the final decision,, then tear it apart off vehicle to verify prognosis.

Tomorrow I will go through solenoid and electrical test again before doing a pressure test and pulling the transmission.

I also have a Mitchel Account noe so anything you need JUST ASK :thumbsup:

 

[Doctor J]

It would not happen very soon. but I will hook up my ECT command tester, mount the camera on the passenger seat headrest and do some footage about tranny shifting sequence

 

[The Camry Man]

Found Sl Solenoid not clicking ??

Found SL Solenoid not clicking ??

Did a last minute random ohm and volt test on the solenoids from the 5 pin connector. S1 & S2 I could here fine and SL hooked to the TC Lockup I barely could here clicking when power supplied to Blue/Yellow wire.

I proceeded to go grab another one I had sitting in shop and it was nice and loud.

Did the following;

1. Pulled off Neutral Safetey Switch.
2. Removed 10mm bolts holding NSS & kick down cable.
3. Removed the SL solenoid.
4. Retested it on bench.
5. after about 5 attempts testing with 12 volt to wire and body grounded it finally started to click hmmm
6. Replaced it anyway and noticed after I slid it down inside the transmission that it was pretty tight.
7. Before going any further I decided to click test it at this point. (No Response hmm
8. I proceeded to pull it back out & added some rebuild grease and this time twisted as I pushed down.
9. Re tested and it was much louder :clap:
10. Reinstalled remaining parts and tested vehicle while on the rack.
11. PERFECT ! NO PROBLEMS ! NICE DOWNSHIFTING TOO :chug:

I AM THINKING THAT THE SOLENOID WAS EITHER STICKING OR LEAKING (like you said it might Doctor J) and was reeking havick on the signal to Torque Converter. Gonna put resistor on Temp sensor today! :naughty:
What do you guys think?:lurk:

 

[dem2757]

it probably was the stuck solenoid, but do the resistor just to be sure.

im glad these relays and such make such loud clicks ;]

 

[The Camry Man]

Solved !

Been driving the car for 2 days now and no issues.

I have a question about the Resistor

You said 300 ohm and 2 volt... Radio shack only has 1/4 or 1/2 volt with 330 ohm

and DID YOU MEAN 12 VOLT?

:thumbsup:

 

[Doctor J]

2 watts (power)
Also the brown connector goes to cold start injector start switch (this switch has 22 mm hex) and the green connector goes to the coolant thermosensor (19 mm hex).
Cold start injector switch does not affect transmission operation

 

[The Camry Man]

Thanks for the info on sensors.

I believe that everything is working great now. I noticed that if you leave the temp sensor unplugged then it will have a hard time starting.
I plugged it back in a nd started fine.

Is this because when unplugged the signal from thermo sensor can't get to cold start switch telling it to inject fuel?

and
that adding the resistor IN PLACE of the temp sensor will allow this signal

or

Use the resistor JUST AS A TEST .. then install NEW temp sensor in question.