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Discussion Starter #1
Re: Information Gleaned from Domestic Content Labels

The NAP content label is indeed misleading and you are correct, it applies
to the vehicle line. If a manufacture buys steel in the US and stamps parts
in the US from that steel, it counts as US content as well as NAP. If the
steel is imported and the stamping is done in Canada, or the US, it counts
as NAP but those parts are NOT US content for the VIN designation of the
number '1,' by the US Department of Commerce

The stamped part, or the steel, or the component parts, of any part that is
ONLY finally assembled in the US or Canada from imported components it
counted on the NAP label but does NOT count as US content. If the US
content of base materials, steel, plastics, rubber, glass, engineering ,
R&D, etc., fall below 70% the VIN assigned is a '4,' if it falls below 40%
the VIN assigned is a '5'

For example the Accord get a '1' and the Camry a '4.'

Ford is going to have to start building the Fusion in a second plant. The
Hermosa plant does not have the build capacity.to meet the current growth in
demand

mike


"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>I am curious about the domestic content of various cars, so I stopped by a
>couple of car dealers last night to check out the domestic content labels.
>In 35 years of car buying, I never recall seeing one. But, sure enough,
>they were on most cars and light trucks on the lots. I wonder where they go
>when I test drive a car? Apparently they are not required on heavy duty
>trucks (like an F250).
>
> The labels list the percentage of domestic content for a "Car Line" not
> for the particular car you are looking at. And it is not even for the cars
> from a particular plant. It is domestic content of the theoretical volume
> weighted average member of a "Car Line." This means that no matter what
> Camry you look at, no matter where it was actually built, the domestic
> content label is going to show the same percentage of domestic content.
> This is why Camrys built in Japan are still labeled as having 80% domestic
> content. The particular Camry built in Japan might have 0% domestic
> content, but when all Camrys (and Solaras) sold in the US are averaged
> together, the average domestic content is 80%. Likewise, Ford Mustangs all
> are claimed to have a 70% domestic content whether they are a V-6 manual,
> or a V-8 automatic. Clearly a V-6 Automatic Mustang, which has a German
> engine and a French transmission, has a much lower domestic content than a
> V-8 Automatic Mustang, which has US built engines and transmissions. Still
> they both have the same domestic content percentage shown on the label.
> The labels do show the country of origin for engines and transmissions and
> the country of assembly. I have no idea how they account for changes in
> demand for different version or when Toyota imports additional Camrys to
> meet higher than expected demand. I suppose the labels are based on
> projected volumes. I do not know if they are updated if reality doesn't
> conform to the projections.
>
> I think calling items produced in the US or Canada as "domestic" is not
> sensible since NAFTA was implemented. Why is Mexico treated differently
> than Canada? Aren't we all one big happy free trade area? I also think it
> is not clear how a particular component is counted as "domestic." To be
> counted as a "domestic fender" does the steel have to come from the US or
> Canada or merely be stamped out in the US or Canada? Does an electronic
> component have to have components sourced in the US or Canada, or just
> have the final assembly done in the US or Canada?
>
> My opinion is that he Domestic Content Labels are not particularly useful,
> and that they may actually be misleading. They do not reflect the domestic
> content of the actual car you are looking at, but rather they are the
> average domestic content for cars in that particular car line. Regardless
> of their usefulness, here is what the labels claim for various car lines:
>
> Toyota 4Runner - 0%
> Toyota Siena - 80%
> Toyota Highlander - 5%
> Toyota Prius - 0%
> Toyota Matrix - 70%
> Toyota Corolla - 60%
> Toyota Tacoma - 65%
> Toyota Avalon - 75%
> Toyota Camry / Solara - 80%
> Scion xA, xB, xC - 0%
> Toyota Yaris - 0%
> Toyota Tundra (new version) - 75%
> Toyota RAV4 - 0%
> Ford Ranger - 80%
> Ford F150 - 90%
> Ford Mustang - 70%
> Ford Escape - 2007 - 80%, 2008 - 65%
> Ford Edge / Lincoln MXK - 95%
> Ford Five Hundred / Mercury Montego - 80%
> Ford Freestyle - 85%
> Ford Explorer / Mercury Mountaineer - 80%
> Ford Fusion / Mercury Milan / Lincoln MKZ - 50%
> Ford Crown Victoria / Mercury Grand Marquis / Lincoln Town Car - 90%
>
> One thing I found interesting was the sparce number of Ford Fusions on the
> lots at Ford dealers. I stopped at two Ford dealers and there was a total
> of 6 Fusions on the lots. I assume this means they are selling really
> well.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
 
J

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Discussion Starter #2
Re: Information Gleaned from Domestic Content Labels

"Mike Hunter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> The NAP content label is indeed misleading and you are correct, it applies
> to the vehicle line. If a manufacture buys steel in the US and stamps
> parts in the US from that steel, it counts as US content as well as NAP.
> If the steel is imported and the stamping is done in Canada, or the US, it
> counts as NAP but those parts are NOT US content for the VIN designation
> of the number '1,' by the US Department of Commerce


Evidence please. The VIN designation is required by the Deparment of
Transportation, not the Department of Commerce. The Department of
Transportation (through the National Traffic Highway Safety Administration)
has contracted with the Society of Automotive Engineers to assign the WMI
(the first three characters of the VIN).

Here is a link to the US code that is involved:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/49cfr565_05.html

> The stamped part, or the steel, or the component parts, of any part that
> is ONLY finally assembled in the US or Canada from imported components it
> counted on the NAP label but does NOT count as US content. If the US
> content of base materials, steel, plastics, rubber, glass, engineering ,
> R&D, etc., fall below 70% the VIN assigned is a '4,' if it falls below 40%
> the VIN assigned is a '5'
>
> For example the Accord get a '1' and the Camry a '4.'


Exactly. Honda was assigned a WMI (world manufactuer identifier) beginning
with '1,' which indicates that it was made in the US, and Toyota begins with
a '4', which indicates it was made in the US.

The first digit of the VIN indicates nothing else.

If I am incorrect, you can prove it by posting the URL that demonstrates
this.

> Ford is going to have to start building the Fusion in a second plant. The
> Hermosa plant does not have the build capacity.to meet the current growth
> in demand


Excellent. Hopefully this will help Ford come out of their financial mess. I
hope they can figure out how to build good cars that people want.

Jeff

> mike
>
>
> "C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>>I am curious about the domestic content of various cars, so I stopped by a
>>couple of car dealers last night to check out the domestic content labels.
>>In 35 years of car buying, I never recall seeing one. But, sure enough,
>>they were on most cars and light trucks on the lots. I wonder where they
>>go when I test drive a car? Apparently they are not required on heavy duty
>>trucks (like an F250).
>>
>> The labels list the percentage of domestic content for a "Car Line" not
>> for the particular car you are looking at. And it is not even for the
>> cars from a particular plant. It is domestic content of the theoretical
>> volume weighted average member of a "Car Line." This means that no matter
>> what Camry you look at, no matter where it was actually built, the
>> domestic content label is going to show the same percentage of domestic
>> content. This is why Camrys built in Japan are still labeled as having
>> 80% domestic content. The particular Camry built in Japan might have 0%
>> domestic content, but when all Camrys (and Solaras) sold in the US are
>> averaged together, the average domestic content is 80%. Likewise, Ford
>> Mustangs all are claimed to have a 70% domestic content whether they are
>> a V-6 manual, or a V-8 automatic. Clearly a V-6 Automatic Mustang, which
>> has a German engine and a French transmission, has a much lower domestic
>> content than a V-8 Automatic Mustang, which has US built engines and
>> transmissions. Still they both have the same domestic content percentage
>> shown on the label. The labels do show the country of origin for engines
>> and transmissions and the country of assembly. I have no idea how they
>> account for changes in demand for different version or when Toyota
>> imports additional Camrys to meet higher than expected demand. I suppose
>> the labels are based on projected volumes. I do not know if they are
>> updated if reality doesn't conform to the projections.
>>
>> I think calling items produced in the US or Canada as "domestic" is not
>> sensible since NAFTA was implemented. Why is Mexico treated differently
>> than Canada? Aren't we all one big happy free trade area? I also think it
>> is not clear how a particular component is counted as "domestic." To be
>> counted as a "domestic fender" does the steel have to come from the US or
>> Canada or merely be stamped out in the US or Canada? Does an electronic
>> component have to have components sourced in the US or Canada, or just
>> have the final assembly done in the US or Canada?
>>
>> My opinion is that he Domestic Content Labels are not particularly
>> useful, and that they may actually be misleading. They do not reflect the
>> domestic content of the actual car you are looking at, but rather they
>> are the average domestic content for cars in that particular car line.
>> Regardless of their usefulness, here is what the labels claim for various
>> car lines:
>>
>> Toyota 4Runner - 0%
>> Toyota Siena - 80%
>> Toyota Highlander - 5%
>> Toyota Prius - 0%
>> Toyota Matrix - 70%
>> Toyota Corolla - 60%
>> Toyota Tacoma - 65%
>> Toyota Avalon - 75%
>> Toyota Camry / Solara - 80%
>> Scion xA, xB, xC - 0%
>> Toyota Yaris - 0%
>> Toyota Tundra (new version) - 75%
>> Toyota RAV4 - 0%
>> Ford Ranger - 80%
>> Ford F150 - 90%
>> Ford Mustang - 70%
>> Ford Escape - 2007 - 80%, 2008 - 65%
>> Ford Edge / Lincoln MXK - 95%
>> Ford Five Hundred / Mercury Montego - 80%
>> Ford Freestyle - 85%
>> Ford Explorer / Mercury Mountaineer - 80%
>> Ford Fusion / Mercury Milan / Lincoln MKZ - 50%
>> Ford Crown Victoria / Mercury Grand Marquis / Lincoln Town Car - 90%
>>
>> One thing I found interesting was the sparce number of Ford Fusions on
>> the lots at Ford dealers. I stopped at two Ford dealers and there was a
>> total of 6 Fusions on the lots. I assume this means they are selling
>> really well.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
>>

>
>
 
M

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: Information Gleaned from Domestic Content Labels

You are free to believe whatever you choose but as one might expect you are
incorrect, not all Hondas assembled in the US have a '1.' Not all Toyotas
have a '4' Does it not make you curious as to why Toyota would be assigned
a '4' and '5,' as a world manufacturer as you want to believe, and Nissan
who began assembly in the US long after Toyota would gets a '1?' Don't you
find it strange, following your logic that ALL of the '1s' would be assigned
before they 'ran out' of '1s' as you believe, before they would issue 4 and
5? I told you a dozen times were to search. I could not care less whether
you do so, or not

mike



"Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>


>>
>> For example the Accord get a '1' and the Camry a '4.'

>
> Exactly. Honda was assigned a WMI (world manufactuer identifier) beginning
> with '1,' which indicates that it was made in the US, and Toyota begins
> with a '4', which indicates it was made in the US.
>
> The first digit of the VIN indicates nothing else.
 
J

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Discussion Starter #4
Re: Information Gleaned from Domestic Content Labels

"Mike Hunter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]
> You are free to believe whatever you choose but as one might expect you
> are incorrect, not all Hondas assembled in the US have a '1.' Not all
> Toyotas have a '4' Does it not make you curious as to why Toyota would
> be assigned a '4' and '5,' as a world manufacturer as you want to believe,
> and Nissan who began assembly in the US long after Toyota would gets a
> '1?' Don't you find it strange, following your logic that ALL of the
> '1s' would be assigned before they 'ran out' of '1s' as you believe,
> before they would issue 4 and 5? I told you a dozen times were to search.
> I could not care less whether you do so, or not
>
> mike


What I find curious is that you have provied no verifiable evidence that
anything you say is correct.

Why does Ford make nearly identical vehicles on the same assembly line, but
if they are Fords, they get a '1', if the brand begins with an M, they get
a 4, and if it begins with L, they get a '5'? They are nearly identical
vehicles.

Why is that each type of vehicle sold as a particular brand gets only one
WMI (the first three digits of the VIN)? Would there have to be two or
three, for at least some (I mean to account for different models that have
different content)?

You're right. I am free to believe what I want. And I believe that you have
no clue what you are talking about.

Why don't you show us that I am making an ass out of myself by posting the
URL that shows that the first digit of the VIN reflects US content?

Jeff
 
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