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·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

"Jim Higgins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> 2007: The year of Toyota
> http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/011307/opinion_20070113024.shtml
>

<article snipped>

I grew up as a GM guy. My last 6 new car purchases were 85 Nissan truck,
86 Chevy Nova (really a Corolla), 90 Nissan Axxess, 98 Sienna, 02 Jeep TJ
and now the 07 Prius. I have a hard time now considering GM to be a
quality product worthy of my cash. I want it to actually last a long
while, as I run my vehicles forever and do not trade them in, and handle
to my standards. The Jeep - well that's a Jeep thing. The most credible
line of vehicles is Toyota today as I see it. This as I see it is exactly
GM's problem. I have rented many GM cars; I would not buy them today.
Tomes
 
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·
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

"fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
<good stuff snipped>
> While this certainly is good news - it makes GM look like they are
> throwing in the towel by admitting that they can't build a reliable
> product without the help of the competition.
>
>> I have rented many GM cars; I would not buy them today.

>
> It is a very sad day for me - to admit that I agree that GM has lost the
> confidence of their loyal customers.
>
> I am most likely going to purchase a Toyota brand and with the
> confidence of all the wonderful people in here.
>

This is where I am now and I am quite comfortable here.
Tomes
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

Tomes suggests to fish...

>> It is a very sad day for me - to admit that
>> I agree that GM has lost the confidence
>> of their loyal customers.


>> I am most likely going to purchase a Toyota
>> brand and with the confidence of all the
>> wonderful people in here.


> This is where I am now and I am quite comfortable here.


Tell me Tomes, how is the service department?

For me, the Saturn service is amongst the best service experience I have
ever had.

They are friendly, informative, accurate and very quick with getting the job
done in impressive timing.

Plus they offer a free car wash with every service.

I like the service department at my local Toyota dealer. It looks very clean
and professional.
I have ask someone who has the practical experience.
_________
===fish===
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

"fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:W8kqh.1046$[email protected]
> Tomes suggests to fish...
>
>>> It is a very sad day for me - to admit that
>>> I agree that GM has lost the confidence
>>> of their loyal customers.

>
>>> I am most likely going to purchase a Toyota
>>> brand and with the confidence of all the
>>> wonderful people in here.

>
>> This is where I am now and I am quite comfortable here.

>
> Tell me Tomes, how is the service department?
>
> For me, the Saturn service is amongst the best service experience I have
> ever had.
>
> They are friendly, informative, accurate and very quick with getting the
> job done in impressive timing.
>
> Plus they offer a free car wash with every service.
>
> I like the service department at my local Toyota dealer. It looks very
> clean and professional.
> I have ask someone who has the practical experience.
> _________
> ===fish===
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯


I have visited around 70 or 80 different service departments. All of them
serviced Toyotas, some of them serviced other brands as well. There are
many service departments with the attributes you described above, but
unfortunately, there are almost as many that IMO, do not have all of those
attributes. One of the attributes that you did not mention is technical
competence, and most dealers are technically competent. If there is a weak
link in Toyota's system, it is the friendly and informative part. My advice
would be to get recommendations from people you know.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Tomes suggests to fish...
>>
>>>> It is a very sad day for me - to admit that
>>>> I agree that GM has lost the confidence
>>>> of their loyal customers.

>>
>>>> I am most likely going to purchase a Toyota
>>>> brand and with the confidence of all the
>>>> wonderful people in here.

>>
>>> This is where I am now and I am quite comfortable here.

>>
>> Tell me Tomes, how is the service department?
>>
>> For me, the Saturn service is amongst the best service experience I have
>> ever had.
>>
>> They are friendly, informative, accurate and very quick with getting the
>> job done in impressive timing.
>>
>> Plus they offer a free car wash with every service.
>>
>> I like the service department at my local Toyota dealer. It looks very
>> clean and professional.
>> I have ask someone who has the practical experience.
>> _________
>> ===fish===
>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

>
> I have visited around 70 or 80 different service departments. All of them
> serviced Toyotas, some of them serviced other brands as well. There are
> many service departments with the attributes you described above, but
> unfortunately, there are almost as many that IMO, do not have all of those
> attributes. One of the attributes that you did not mention is technical
> competence, and most dealers are technically competent. If there is a
> weak link in Toyota's system, it is the friendly and informative part. My
> advice would be to get recommendations from people you know.
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>


My sister went to a dealer south of the Chicago area that's not known for
really selling Toyotas. She's looking for a new one or a 'gently used' one,
i.e. 1 or 2 years old. Some years back this dealer was trying to sell 2 and
3 year old Toyotas that hadn't been driven for sticker!, no adjustment for
sitting on the lot. She was talking to the salesman and he was giving her
the 'dumb blonde' talk down to attitude and she gave him an education in
Toyotas, which he apparently had no real passion for or knowledge of. This
particular dealer has become a two word joke among area Toyota dealers. I
know a lot of people in the county he's in and most of the people that own
Toyotas have either come up to a dealer in Chicago that will offer a better
price or better deal or they go to Champaign or points south for the same
reason. Most Toyota buyers seem to also be savvy when it comes to looking
for a good price. Despite the fact I can drive less than 20 miles and get a
much better deal, he refuses to bargain or deal. How he moves Toyotas is to
trade them with other dealers. You will see very few Toyotas with his
sticker on them around that area.

Charles of Schaumburg
 
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·
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

fish wrote:

> I have been with Chevy, Oldsmobile & Saturn and so my GM loyalty has gone as
> far as it could go.
>
> Having said that, my 1997 Saturn has been good for me for the past 10½ years
> of reliable service.
>
> Very few issues over the past decade and the Saturn was my first NEW car
> where I could claim original miles on the odometer.
>
> But just look at Consumer Reports today and see where Saturn is now.
>
> It makes me sad to see such an organization that produced such a high
> quality auto turn out such cheaply built cars today.


Saturns have always been cheaply built. You have been extremely lucky with
yours.

My folks owned mostly GM cars for the longest time. They now drive a 2004
Toyota Corolla and they say it is the best and most reliable car they've
ever owned.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

fish wrote:

> Tell me Tomes, how is the service department?
>
> For me, the Saturn service is amongst the best service experience I have
> ever had.
>
> They are friendly, informative, accurate and very quick with getting the job
> done in impressive timing.
>
> Plus they offer a free car wash with every service.
>
> I like the service department at my local Toyota dealer. It looks very clean
> and professional.
> I have ask someone who has the practical experience.


All of this depends on the individual dealers, not the manufacturer. Every
manufacturer has good and bad dealers.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

"fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Tell me Tomes, how is the service department?
>
> For me, the Saturn service is amongst the best service experience I have
> ever had.
>
> They are friendly, informative, accurate and very quick with getting the
> job done in impressive timing.
>
> Plus they offer a free car wash with every service.
>
> I like the service department at my local Toyota dealer. It looks very
> clean and professional.
> I have ask someone who has the practical experience.


Well, here is where I have but little input, Fish. I bought my Sienna an
hour and a half away because they had what I wanted and I got a very good
deal in 1998. Therefore, I have been using a local shop hence. I intend
to try out our local dealer where I bought the Prius, as they gave me a
book where every other service is free and it all adds up to a 'normal'
price or thereabouts. Worth a shot.

I do agree with the other posters on this in that each dealer's shop will
be different and you will need to research out your own particular shop
with folks that actually use it. Maybe do some exit polling or something,
unless you know someone who goes there.
Tomes
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: The year of GM, not Toyota

It seems you sure like your Toyotas, but your opinion is the opinion of a
minority. More American still prefer what GM has to offer over Toyota, by
far, GM sold 4.5 million in 2006 and Toyota sold 2 million less. Ford sold
more than Toyota as well in 2006, at 3 million. Chrysler sold nearly as
many at 2.4 million. Nearly 10 million Americans bought domestics in 2006,
only 2.5 million bought Toyotas ;)

mike



"fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Tomes respectfully adds...
>
>> I grew up as a GM guy.

>
> Tomes, I have too!
>
> I have been driving for 19 years and have owned only GM automobiles.
>
> Loyalty to a brand - not exactly.
>
> I have been with Chevy, Oldsmobile & Saturn and so my GM loyalty has gone
> as far as it could go.
>
> Having said that, my 1997 Saturn has been good for me for the past 10½
> years of reliable service.
>
> Very few issues over the past decade and the Saturn was my first NEW car
> where I could claim original miles on the odometer.
>
> But just look at Consumer Reports today and see where Saturn is now.
>
> It makes me sad to see such an organization that produced such a high
> quality auto turn out such cheaply built cars today.
>
> It just makes me sad to know that GM cares not about quality, but about
> profit.
>
> The reports of the interior of the latest Saturn Vue feeling cheaply made
> just makes me embarassed of the name - Saturn - which once stood for
> quality.
>
> I am; as you have seen with my recent postings; nervous about purchasing
> my first non-GM auto.
>
> But before I go on and on about the issues with GM, let's discuss about
> some positives here.
>
> I understand that certain autos in the Saturn lineup actually use Honda
> engines.
>
> While this certainly is good news - it makes GM look like they are
> throwing in the towel by admitting that they can't build a reliable
> product without the help of the competition.
>
>> I have rented many GM cars; I would not buy them today.

>
> It is a very sad day for me - to admit that I agree that GM has lost the
> confidence of their loyal customers.
>
> I am most likely going to purchase a Toyota brand and with the confidence
> of all the wonderful people in here.
>
> I thank you all, now let's keep this wonderful dialog going - this is very
> informative!
> _________
> ===fish===
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: The year of Toyota

"fish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Tomes respectfully adds...
>
>> I grew up as a GM guy.

>
> Tomes, I have too!
>
> I have been driving for 19 years and have owned only GM automobiles.
>
> Loyalty to a brand - not exactly.
>
> I have been with Chevy, Oldsmobile & Saturn and so my GM loyalty has gone
> as far as it could go.
>
> Having said that, my 1997 Saturn has been good for me for the past 10½
> years of reliable service.


Saturns seem to be feast or famine. Some folks have a great deal of luck
with them, others don't - maybe where a particular one is built?
>
> Very few issues over the past decade and the Saturn was my first NEW car
> where I could claim original miles on the odometer.
>
> But just look at Consumer Reports today and see where Saturn is now.


Look in used car ads, and you see mostly Saturns (at least in our part of
North Carolina). My son was scared off them by that.
>
> It makes me sad to see such an organization that produced such a high
> quality auto turn out such cheaply built cars today.


Their biggest mistake was not only screwing the consumer, but screwing their
lower-echelon employees as well. "Job One" was to keep the big-wigs in
clover.
>
> It just makes me sad to know that GM cares not about quality, but about
> profit.


GMTA
>
> The reports of the interior of the latest Saturn Vue feeling cheaply made
> just makes me embarassed of the name - Saturn - which once stood for
> quality.


Yeah, I remember the Saturn-mania. That died a rather undignified death.
>
> I am; as you have seen with my recent postings; nervous about purchasing
> my first non-GM auto.
>
> But before I go on and on about the issues with GM, let's discuss about
> some positives here.
>
> I understand that certain autos in the Saturn lineup actually use Honda
> engines.


But do they still?
>
> While this certainly is good news - it makes GM look like they are
> throwing in the towel by admitting that they can't build a reliable
> product without the help of the competition.
>


I don't think that's the only car they've manufactured that way, though.

>> I have rented many GM cars; I would not buy them today.

>
> It is a very sad day for me - to admit that I agree that GM has lost the
> confidence of their loyal customers.


You and millions of others.
>
> I am most likely going to purchase a Toyota brand and with the confidence
> of all the wonderful people in here.
>
> I thank you all, now let's keep this wonderful dialog going - this is very
> informative!
> _________
> ===fish===
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯


Good luck in your search. No doubt there's a Toy out there that is just
right for your needs.

Natalie
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: The year of GM going belly up, not Toyota

"n5hsr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Mike Hunter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> It seems you sure like your Toyotas, but your opinion is the opinion of
>> a minority. More American still prefer what GM has to offer over
>> Toyota, by far, GM sold 4.5 million in 2006 and Toyota sold 2 million
>> less. Ford sold more than Toyota as well in 2006, at 3 million.
>> Chrysler sold nearly as many at 2.4 million. Nearly 10 million Americans
>> bought domestics in 2006,
>> only 2.5 million bought Toyotas ;)
>>

>
> Then these are Americans that are fooled by advertising into thinking they
> are buying American. They obviously haven't tried a Toyota yet. We
> weren't going to buy a Toyota when we bought the Carina in 1974. Dad
> still remembered WW2. He wasn't even too happy about thinking about a VW,
> and definitely wasn't impressed by the Fix It Again Tony dealer in town.
>
> But Toyota has produced over 30 million Corollas alone since 1966. How
> many did GM produce worldwide last year vs. Toyota? Pretty soon Toyota
> will be #1 worldwide, and Mr. Durant's creation will no longer hold the
> title it has coasted on for so many years.
>
> Charles of Schaumburg


Well, I guess *someone* has to defend GM.

Honestly, I feel very sorry for GM's workers, but they were duped just like
everyone else. In some of those towns, GM was a major, if not *the* major
employer. All those folks are being screwed by the fat cats who mismanaged
their future. It's not fair.

Wouldn't it be a kick if Toyota and other really good car companies ended up
hiring those folks to build the cars here? Then all the "America First"
fanatics couldn't squawk about the plight of American auto workers being
cheated out of jobs.

I said then, and I'll say now, if I have to choose between losing my job
because of my shitty domestic car and keeping the guy in Detroit employed,
I'll choose me every time.

But I don't want those folks to suffer, either.

Natalie

*snipping rest*
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: The year of GM going belly up, not Toyota

"Wickeddoll®" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "n5hsr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> "Mike Hunter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> It seems you sure like your Toyotas, but your opinion is the opinion of
>>> a minority. More American still prefer what GM has to offer over
>>> Toyota, by far, GM sold 4.5 million in 2006 and Toyota sold 2 million
>>> less. Ford sold more than Toyota as well in 2006, at 3 million.
>>> Chrysler sold nearly as many at 2.4 million. Nearly 10 million
>>> Americans bought domestics in 2006,
>>> only 2.5 million bought Toyotas ;)
>>>

>>
>> Then these are Americans that are fooled by advertising into thinking
>> they are buying American. They obviously haven't tried a Toyota yet. We
>> weren't going to buy a Toyota when we bought the Carina in 1974. Dad
>> still remembered WW2. He wasn't even too happy about thinking about a
>> VW, and definitely wasn't impressed by the Fix It Again Tony dealer in
>> town.
>>
>> But Toyota has produced over 30 million Corollas alone since 1966. How
>> many did GM produce worldwide last year vs. Toyota? Pretty soon Toyota
>> will be #1 worldwide, and Mr. Durant's creation will no longer hold the
>> title it has coasted on for so many years.
>>
>> Charles of Schaumburg

>
> Well, I guess *someone* has to defend GM.
>
> Honestly, I feel very sorry for GM's workers, but they were duped just
> like everyone else. In some of those towns, GM was a major, if not *the*
> major employer. All those folks are being screwed by the fat cats who
> mismanaged their future. It's not fair.
>
> Wouldn't it be a kick if Toyota and other really good car companies ended
> up hiring those folks to build the cars here? Then all the "America
> First" fanatics couldn't squawk about the plight of American auto workers
> being cheated out of jobs.
>
> I said then, and I'll say now, if I have to choose between losing my job
> because of my shitty domestic car and keeping the guy in Detroit employed,
> I'll choose me every time.
>
> But I don't want those folks to suffer, either.
>
> Natalie
>
> *snipping rest*
>


But we deserve to buy what we need, not what someone wants to foist off on
us. Detroit seems to miss that little bit of logic. There were days where
Americans would eagerly buy up whatever Detroit cranked out. The Arab Oil
Embargo hit Americans right in the pocketbook and made at least some of them
think. Ever since then, GM has slowly been losing ground. (Confucius he
say, man who sling mud lose ground.) Quality is up, but Toyota is still
better, at least the ones I've seen. GM seems to make them better, but
thinks they don't have to be as good as Toyota to start recapturing market
share. I blame the management and the unions. Most of the Joe Schmoes on
the production line would probably work for Toyota if they had the choice
between not working and working for Toyota. Given half a chance, most
people want to do a good job. Management that interferes with such should
have their hat handed to them. And a foot to help them out the door. That
includes the union management.

Charles of Schaumburg
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: The year of GM going belly up, not Toyota

"Wickeddoll®" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "n5hsr" ...
>> "Wickeddoll®" ...
>>>> "Mike Hunter" ...
>>>>> It seems you sure like your Toyotas, but your opinion is the opinion
>>>>> of a minority. More American still prefer what GM has to offer over
>>>>> Toyota, by far, GM sold 4.5 million in 2006 and Toyota sold 2 million
>>>>> less. Ford sold more than Toyota as well in 2006, at 3 million.
>>>>> Chrysler sold nearly as many at 2.4 million. Nearly 10 million
>>>>> Americans bought domestics in 2006,
>>>>> only 2.5 million bought Toyotas ;)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then these are Americans that are fooled by advertising into thinking
>>>> they are buying American. They obviously haven't tried a Toyota yet.
>>>> We weren't going to buy a Toyota when we bought the Carina in 1974.
>>>> Dad still remembered WW2. He wasn't even too happy about thinking
>>>> about a VW, and definitely wasn't impressed by the Fix It Again Tony
>>>> dealer in town.
>>>>
>>>> But Toyota has produced over 30 million Corollas alone since 1966. How
>>>> many did GM produce worldwide last year vs. Toyota? Pretty soon Toyota
>>>> will be #1 worldwide, and Mr. Durant's creation will no longer hold the
>>>> title it has coasted on for so many years.
>>>>
>>>> Charles of Schaumburg
>>>
>>> Well, I guess *someone* has to defend GM.
>>>
>>> Honestly, I feel very sorry for GM's workers, but they were duped just
>>> like everyone else. In some of those towns, GM was a major, if not
>>> *the* major employer. All those folks are being screwed by the fat cats
>>> who mismanaged their future. It's not fair.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't it be a kick if Toyota and other really good car companies
>>> ended up hiring those folks to build the cars here? Then all the
>>> "America First" fanatics couldn't squawk about the plight of American
>>> auto workers being cheated out of jobs.
>>>
>>> I said then, and I'll say now, if I have to choose between losing my job
>>> because of my shitty domestic car and keeping the guy in Detroit
>>> employed, I'll choose me every time.
>>>
>>> But I don't want those folks to suffer, either.
>>>
>>> Natalie
>>>
>>> *snipping rest*
>>>

>>
>> But we deserve to buy what we need, not what someone wants to foist off
>> on us. Detroit seems to miss that little bit of logic. There were days
>> where Americans would eagerly buy up whatever Detroit cranked out. The
>> Arab Oil Embargo hit Americans right in the pocketbook and made at least
>> some of them think. Ever since then, GM has slowly been losing ground.
>> (Confucius he say, man who sling mud lose ground.) Quality is up, but
>> Toyota is still better, at least the ones I've seen. GM seems to make
>> them better, but thinks they don't have to be as good as Toyota to start
>> recapturing market share. I blame the management and the unions. Most
>> of the Joe Schmoes on the production line would probably work for Toyota
>> if they had the choice between not working and working for Toyota. Given
>> half a chance, most people want to do a good job. Management that
>> interferes with such should have their hat handed to them. And a foot to
>> help them out the door. That includes the union management.
>>
>> Charles of Schaumburg
>>

>
> Hmmm, I hadn't thought about that embargo. Interesting. I think you're
> probably right that the upper echelons screwed over the average worker,
> but what else is new?
>
> Natalie
>


The problem is America no longer is the world leader and they can't just do
whatever they want anymore. There is competition, no matter how much the
UAW and GM want to ignore it. And the competition knows the weak points of
their opponent.

Charles of Schaumburg
 
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