Toyota Nation Forum banner
61 - 80 of 107 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,036 Posts
Wikipedia is written by anyone who wants to put something up on it...... never trust any information from it..

And also.... as far as I know, there wasn't a single 4afe modified/used in a formula atlantic vehicle..... the 4age was used through just last year..... didn't make changes like the valve angle, it still used a 4age cast head and block.
 

·
Resident asshole
Corolla
Joined
·
9,552 Posts
Thats because formula atlantic series uses only one engine type.... "From 1990 to 2005, the series was sponsored by Toyota and the cars were powered by Toyota's 1600cc 4A-GE engines available in kit form from Toyota Racing Development." and now they use the mazda engine and cooper tires.

But those engines cant really directly be compared with the average normal 4A-GE, they had different carbs/fuel injection, cams, dry sump lubrication, etc.

Kinda like formula ford uses ford engines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Wikipedia is written by anyone who wants to put something up on it...... never trust any information from it..
Maybe so, but that doesn't make it wrong. And it makes sense too. A narrow angle makes the airflow go closer along with the motion of the pistons and at the same time, the valves are closer to the center of the cylindertop. I suspect the advantage of the GE heads is more related to larger ports and and better manifolds.

BTW, didn't someone mention something about that 20 degrees was the prefered angle in Formula 1?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,036 Posts
well, a huge amount of what Wikipedia has on it's site is wrong...... so, going by the "judge" ruling.... if you're lying once it's probable that there are lies all over....

Now.... to be honest, nobody here is talking about N/A high HP built 4afe's..... if you want to talk valve angle then you have you disclude boost.... although there might be a very very very minimal change due to valve angle, if there is boost present it really doesn't matter what angle the valves are at, just the size of the opening and the duration they are open for.... when pressure is built up behind the valves the air will move whichever way it needs to for least resistance -- in an N/A this is different since the pressure side is coming from the combustion chamber (negative pressure pulling) not the manifold......

So, if you want to talk how much performance gain the valve angle is achieving you in a slave cam 100hp motor then you need to continue talkinig n/a..... and those who have a 4afe putting down (dyno proven) 130hp + without boost or nitrous should start to speak up...... otherwise your points are pretty moot.

Ford formula motors are mazda/cosworth, IIRC..... the new ones went to Cosworth. My point is still that the 4age was used as a BASE for a reason, and though the 4age 16V stopped production in 1991, it was used as the BASE through 2005.... the 4afe was improved on through 1996 (1997 production and probably later for non US vehicles... IIRC the 4afe was still available in 2000?) and yet was not used as the base in any way shape or form for performance...... the only performance setup in a corolla was the rare non-factory built 7afte in the later gold editions..... and if I remember correctly they were making around the same amount of power as the blacktop 4age's......


now, when talking about valve angles in n/a motors.... yes, there can be drastic effects.... that being said, the larger effects are those of valve size, duration, and lift will have just as much if not more effect, and you are considering that all of those are kept constant between the two engines -- which they are not. Further, on a low HP n/a motor I would assume that the gains would be negligible if you actually were able to keep all other variables constant and throw it on a bench test -- and until someone does that with a 4afe to 4age head you're just speaking in hypotheticals. The fact that both are 16V engines (4 per cylinder) both have a tumble air pattern, and at the amount of air moving into the combustion chamber probably won't change much with the CR's that each engine has. This arguement is similar to that of a 4 vs 5 valve per cylinder head..... most would say "well there's 5, that's more, it must be better", when in fact flow bench tests have proved that the 3 intake valves still cause a tumble effect and have little (if any) increase in performance. I'm sure I can go to Wikipedia and find some idiots rant about how the 20V 4age is superior due to it's 5th valve, and they neglect to mention it really makes more power due to VVT, ITB's, and higher CR.

The 4age was a benchmark engine for Toyota for many of it's sports/sporty cars, the 4afe wasn't. I'm really not going to argue with Toyota on that one. Build your 4afe and think you're being original... but when all is said and done if you've gone n/a you're probably making the same or less power than a 100% stock smallport 4age and have probably spent more money than the swap would have cost you. I'll be "unoriginal" in my corolla with more power, higher revs, and more reliability due to the engine being stock. When I need to go faster, I'll go to my reliable and stronger 4agte car (if I ever finish) or my 7age car.....

Speaking of the 4afe... I'll have a very rare 88 4afe complete LB at my house soon.... got it for free.... maybe I'll go through and find some actual measurements and maybe show you all what I'm talking about.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,036 Posts
Actually, the 20 valve 4A-GE had at narrower angle than the 16 valve. Maybe, that's why it had more power :)

As illustrated here.

16 valve: http://www.billzilla.org/16vhead.jpg

20 valve: http://www.billzilla.org/20vhead.jpg


Also some interesting points on this subject here: http://www.billzilla.org/engcombust.htm

Silvertops have a much better flowing intake (ITB's), larger injectors, and .2 higher CR, advanced electronics for electronic valve control..... they've been proven in stock trim to actually make about a whopping 10whp more than the smallports in stock trim..... you REALLY think that's due to the valve angle when, again, you are clearly ignoring the factors that are giving it more power?

Blacktops have even larger ITB's, .5 higher CR than the smallports, and have lighter internals..... again.........

To make matters worse.... if you're giong to talk valve angle then you really should be taking the sum of the 3 intake valve angles and dividing them, as the angles of 2 and 1 valve per cylinder are different.......

you are again keeping things constant that aren't constant :headbang:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
I was hoping you'd notice the smiley, illustrating that i was joking.

But you're just proving the point i have been trying to make all along, that the valveangle on the GE heads doesn't make them superior compared to the FE heads, And it's more likely that the higher output on the GE heads is obtained by larger ports, valve diameter etc. etc.. Unfortunately i can't find any data for the 4A-FE to back that up with. I'm trying to make this point, because a lot of websides, that explain the Toyota engine codes say F=narrov angle economy head ......and G=wide angle performance head, when infact real difference in output may have little or nothing to do with the angle of the valves.

Then there are those who say that G means just that tha head is developed by Yamaha. If that's true or not, i don't know

Regarding the slave cam found in the 4a-fe as well as in the 3s-fe and i believe also in 7a-fe and 5s-fe. Is it also found on the newer versions of the FE heads?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,036 Posts
I was hoping you'd notice the smiley, illustrating that i was joking.

But you're just proving the point i have been trying to make all along, that the valveangle on the GE heads doesn't make them superior compared to the FE heads, And it's more likely that the higher output on the GE heads is obtained by larger ports, valve diameter etc. etc.. Unfortunately i can't find any data for the 4A-FE to back that up with. I'm trying to make this point, because a lot of websides, that explain the Toyota engine codes say F=narrov angle economy head ......and G=wide angle performance head, when infact real difference in output may have little or nothing to do with the angle of the valves.

Then there are those who say that G means just that tha head is developed by Yamaha. If that's true or not, i don't know

Regarding the slave cam found in the 4a-fe as well as in the 3s-fe and i believe also in 7a-fe and 5s-fe. Is it also found on the newer versions of the FE heads?
Any toyota F series engine has a slave cam.

I never said that the G head has a wider valve angle that make them superior... I'm making the point that simply because the F head has a narrower valve angle that it would be a great start.... when talking about building for performance a 4afe vs a 4age my point is that it's going to take more money to make the power of a 4age than to swap a 4age.... people on here use the fact that it has a narrow head and that someone at some point tried to say that it meant the 4afe was more efficient at flowing air, and then rumormill started (which it always does on this site) that building a 4afe is a great idea because of this.

I'm not trying to shoot people down... they can do what they want, but if they really want their car to go faster and they don't want to spend gobs of money or time, a simple swap will help a tremendous
amount.


Not all G heads are designed by Yamaha..... as far as I have heard, only the 4age, 3sgte, and the 2zzge have Yamaha ties..... haven't heard about older motors (2tg, 18rg) or larger (7mge/7mgte) had any Yamaha influence. Toyota has always designated their TWIN CAM motors using the G. This tends to correlate with the more sporty model of that car and/or the model with more power (4afe vs 4age, 5sfe vs 3sgte)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Any toyota F series engine has a slave cam.

I never said that the G head has a wider valve angle that make them superior... I'm making the point that simply because the F head has a narrower valve angle that it would be a great start.... when talking about building for performance a 4afe vs a 4age my point is that it's going to take more money to make the power of a 4age than to swap a 4age.... people on here use the fact that it has a narrow head and that someone at some point tried to say that it meant the 4afe was more efficient at flowing air, and then rumormill started (which it always does on this site) that building a 4afe is a great idea because of this.

I'm not trying to shoot people down... they can do what they want, but if they really want their car to go faster and they don't want to spend gobs of money or time, a simple swap will help a tremendous
amount.


Not all G heads are designed by Yamaha..... as far as I have heard, only the 4age, 3sgte, and the 2zzge have Yamaha ties..... haven't heard about older motors (2tg, 18rg) or larger (7mge/7mgte) had any Yamaha influence. Toyota has always designated their TWIN CAM motors using the G. This tends to correlate with the more sporty model of that car and/or the model with more power (4afe vs 4age, 5sfe vs 3sgte)
18rg i think was yamaha design, as well as an early version of the M engine, found in the Toyota 2000 sportscar, featured in the James Bond movie "You only live tvice". Yamaha was contacted by some european carstylist, to make a sportcar and originally wanted to make the car with Nissan, but Nissan backed out and instead the car was made in cooperation with Toyota, which suplied the base engine, which was tuned by Yamaha.

I'm not saying you claimed that wide angle was better for perfomance. But a lot of people combine the performance of the G engines with its wider valveangle and that's comfusing, when it later has been argued and more or less proven, that a narrow angle would achieve better performance, which also makes more sense.
 

·
Registered
1988 Corolla SR-5
Joined
·
3,042 Posts
Not the North Sea. The North Sea is the area between The English Channel and a line roughly between the most western point of Norway and the most northern point of The Shetland Islands. Except for that, you're correct
I stand corrected. Thanks. ;)


The reality of wheather the wider valve angle really makes for more power or not is really moot I think. Toyota marketed the "G" engine as the performance engine. That was their reasoning for it being different from the "F" engines. If it is or isn't, we could be debating till the cows come home, but like I said before technology has moved past these engines. They were impressive in their time, but no more.

How about we stick some 1ZZ or 2ZZ engines in our cars and see how they go.
Thats what I want to do, but I want someone else to do all the experimenting first, then tell me how. :clap:

Until then I am going with a 7A-FE, and maybe later slap my GE head on it.
 

·
Rotary guy...
89 RX-7 Turbo
Joined
·
2,456 Posts
lol, this thread is crazy.

but I'm going to try to end it :)

the F20C in the S2000 which makes 120 hp/L (aka a crapload) uses a 51 degree cam angle. So the 4A-GEs cam angle is better :)

but it also uses a slave cam type system (look it up, I don't feel like explaining it, but it only has 1 cam gear connected to the timing chain, but both cams are actually slaves...), but it's totally different than the 4A-F/FE's slave cam, so that doesn't matter...

also, part of the reason F1 cars have such narrow valve angles is probably because their cylinders are really small (3.0L V8 small) that there is no room for a wide angle, but that's just an assumption.

My RX-7 doesn't have any valves so it's best :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
I stand corrected. Thanks. ;)


The reality of wheather the wider valve angle really makes for more power or not is really moot I think. Toyota marketed the "G" engine as the performance engine. That was their reasoning for it being different from the "F" engines. If it is or isn't, we could be debating till the cows come home, but like I said before technology has moved past these engines. They were impressive in their time, but no more.

How about we stick some 1ZZ or 2ZZ engines in our cars and see how they go.
Thats what I want to do, but I want someone else to do all the experimenting first, then tell me how. :clap:
The area north of the Faroe Islands is called The Norwegian Sea, to the south we only call it the Atlantic Ocean. So guess you could say that The Faroe Islands ars situated on the border between The Norwegian Sea and the open widh of The Atlantic Ocean.

If we forget about the valveangle for a moment and assume that the poweradvantage of the G heads is achieved by valvelift and valvetiming it has becomed academical with the introduction of vvt-i and valvematic, which enables them to combine the advantages of both the G and the F type heads
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
lol, this thread is crazy.

but I'm going to try to end it :)

the F20C in the S2000 which makes 120 hp/L (aka a crapload) uses a 51 degree cam angle. So the 4A-GEs cam angle is better :)

but it also uses a slave cam type system (look it up, I don't feel like explaining it, but it only has 1 cam gear connected to the timing chain, but both cams are actually slaves...), but it's totally different than the 4A-F/FE's slave cam, so that doesn't matter...

also, part of the reason F1 cars have such narrow valve angles is probably because their cylinders are really small (3.0L V8 small) that there is no room for a wide angle, but that's just an assumption.

My RX-7 doesn't have any valves so it's best :)
3.0L V8 is not that much smaller than a 1.6L I4, doubt that the reason is size, which actually shouldn't be a factor.

To credit the valveangle on a Honda engine for it's power/displacement ratio, is making the same argument, that people made about the Toyota G heads back in the 80, without taking into consideration valvesize and valvelift etc. That thing revs up to 9000 rpm with V-tec enganging at 6000. That says something about the valvelift
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
actually, the 4A series are oversquare engine
I know, but the 3S is even squared. Regarding space, wouldn't a wide angle make it possible to have larger valve diameter than a narrow angle? I mean , if the angle is too narrow, the space between the valve would be limited. As far as i can see, that's the only advantage of using a wider angle in a conventional cylinder
 
61 - 80 of 107 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top