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Discussion Starter #1
I've been doing process server work in a major metro area
( Denver ) and am really getting to enjoy it. ( call me crazy :)

For those not familiar, it involves serving legal papers on
people in the evenings and weekends.

But you may have heard how snowy it's been here this winter and
the neighborhood streets have been horrible.

Snowy bumps, sometimes 6-8" with holes down to the pavement,
so the car is driving in ruts and bottoming out etc.

It's really rough riding and knocks your guys around.

But here's my question. I'm starting my own company for this
business, I enjoy it so much.

Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old
pickup truck ads that showed the truck going down railroad
ties with a glass of water on the dash, and not even spilling
that water? What was that, some kind of special custom
suspension?

And then my mind starts thinking of those old "low riders"
that some of the latinos in LA were making. So here's my idea.

I get something like a 3 year old AWD Matrix, something that
can go over snow and not get stuck all over the place.

My present front wheel drive 93 Corolla wagon is a little
tricky at times on snow. So I get an AWD Matrix for starters.

Then I have it modified with a suspension like that, that can
ride totally smoothly over bad bumps, like these snowy streets.

THEN I have it customized also with some electric or hydraulic
lifts ( not sure how the low riders do that ) so I can raise the
car maybe 6" above the base level?

That would put the frame up high enough so it wouldn't bottom
on those snowy ruts in the street?

Would that make it where I could cruise through those snowy
neighborhood streets, smoothly, and not even bottom the car?

Would it also make it even easier for me ( I'm 6' tall ) to
get in and out, without having to bend so low?

BUT, would it cost a fortune to do all that? That's my main
concern. CAN it be done, and would it cost a fortune that I
couldn't afford?

Thoughts?
 
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Discussion Starter #2
Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old
> pickup truck ads that showed the truck going down railroad
> ties with a glass of water on the dash, and not even spilling
> that water? What was that, some kind of special custom
> suspension?


Ford Twin I-beam. It had other negatives, like non-adjustable camber
issues that ate tires. Also, railroad ties are constantly spaced, and
filled with stones in between. Drive the right speed and the tire will
probably skip from tie-top to tie-top. Madison Ave. in action!

Any decent 4WD pickup with higher sidewall tires (75 series or higher)
would probably be fine at speeds for conditions. Unfortunately, the
"sport truck" craze has created lots of 4x4's with large wheels and
small sidewalls, which are useless on rough low traction surfaces.

You could always slow down when the roads are bad. Have you ever seen
real four-wheelers traveling along a trail? They don't go very fast.
Now you know why. <G>
 
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Discussion Starter #3
"Nomen Nescio" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I've been doing process server work in a major metro area
> ( Denver ) and am really getting to enjoy it. ( call me crazy :)
>
> For those not familiar, it involves serving legal papers on
> people in the evenings and weekends.
>
> But you may have heard how snowy it's been here this winter and
> the neighborhood streets have been horrible.
>
> Snowy bumps, sometimes 6-8" with holes down to the pavement,
> so the car is driving in ruts and bottoming out etc.
>
> It's really rough riding and knocks your guys around.
>
> But here's my question. I'm starting my own company for this
> business, I enjoy it so much.
>
> Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old
> pickup truck ads that showed the truck going down railroad
> ties with a glass of water on the dash, and not even spilling
> that water? What was that, some kind of special custom
> suspension?


IIRC, that was a Ford Twin I-Beam suspension, which is pretty basic compared
to modern truck suspensions. Adjustability for alignment purposes and
vehicle handling on pavement are better in more modern suspensions.

>
> And then my mind starts thinking of those old "low riders"
> that some of the latinos in LA were making. So here's my idea.
>
> I get something like a 3 year old AWD Matrix, something that
> can go over snow and not get stuck all over the place.
>
> My present front wheel drive 93 Corolla wagon is a little
> tricky at times on snow. So I get an AWD Matrix for starters.
>
> Then I have it modified with a suspension like that, that can
> ride totally smoothly over bad bumps, like these snowy streets.


As a very general rule, the more "cushy" and soft-riding a suspension is,
the worse the vehicle will handle.

>
> THEN I have it customized also with some electric or hydraulic
> lifts ( not sure how the low riders do that ) so I can raise the
> car maybe 6" above the base level?


The suspensions on low riders use electric pumps to operate hydraulics,
sometimes taken from aircraft landing gear. The suspensions are
custom-fabricated, usually cost thousands of dollars, and tend to require
frequent repairs.

Making the ride height on a vehicle with 4 wheel drive adjustable by 6
inches on a vehicle with an independent front suspension is a challenge
because there has to be a way for the front axles to change angles and
length in relation to the front differential.

The Audi Quattro AllRoad has some height adjustability but it is not 6
inches, and the ride is stiffer rather than cushy.

The Hummer H1 provides ground clearance with geared front hubs - the front
axles are above the centerline of the wheels. While this setup provides
good ground clearance, the gears are noisy and limit vehicle top speed.

>
> That would put the frame up high enough so it wouldn't bottom
> on those snowy ruts in the street?


The frame - yes, the rest of the suspension and axles - no.
>
> Would that make it where I could cruise through those snowy
> neighborhood streets, smoothly, and not even bottom the car?
>
> Would it also make it even easier for me ( I'm 6' tall ) to
> get in and out, without having to bend so low?
>
> BUT, would it cost a fortune to do all that? That's my main
> concern. CAN it be done, and would it cost a fortune that I
> couldn't afford?
>
> Thoughts?
>


With enough money, just about anything can be done. Figure at least $5,000
to modify a Matrix to provide a soft cushy ride with an adjustable
suspension, and also figure that repairs will probably require custom parts
and fabrication.

If you are looking for all-wheel or 4 wheel drive vehicles with good fuel
economy and ease of entry and egress, besides the Matrix, look at the Rav4,
CRV, and Subarus.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 
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Discussion Starter #4
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:24:39 +0000, B A R R Y wrote:

> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>
>> Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old pickup truck
>> ads that showed the truck going down railroad ties with a glass of water
>> on the dash, and not even spilling that water? What was that, some kind
>> of special custom suspension?

>
> Ford Twin I-beam. It had other negatives, like non-adjustable camber
> issues that ate tires. Also, railroad ties are constantly spaced, and
> filled with stones in between. Drive the right speed and the tire will
> probably skip from tie-top to tie-top. Madison Ave. in action!
>
> Any decent 4WD pickup with higher sidewall tires (75 series or higher)
> would probably be fine at speeds for conditions. Unfortunately, the
> "sport truck" craze has created lots of 4x4's with large wheels and small
> sidewalls, which are useless on rough low traction surfaces.
>
> You could always slow down when the roads are bad. Have you ever seen
> real four-wheelers traveling along a trail? They don't go very fast. Now
> you know why. <G>



He's a Process Server. Almost as 'bad' as Repo Man.

In other words, he needs to get the [email protected] out of there in a HURRY!!!
 
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Discussion Starter #5
B A R R Y wrote:
> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>
>> Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old
>> pickup truck ads that showed the truck going down railroad
>> ties with a glass of water on the dash, and not even spilling
>> that water? What was that, some kind of special custom
>> suspension?


Mostly it required driving at the exact right speed :)


> Ford Twin I-beam. It had other negatives, like non-adjustable
> camber
> issues that ate tires. Also, railroad ties are constantly spaced,
> and
> filled with stones in between. Drive the right speed and the tire
> will probably skip from tie-top to tie-top. Madison Ave. in action!


Only if you didn't know how to adjust it. The early twin I beams were
adjusted by bending. The later ones had eccentric sleeves that allowed
caster/camber adjustment. Over the years my Father and myself owned
many Fords with twin I beam front suspension. We never had a problem
with front tire wear on any of them. We never actually had to have one
aligned either. When introduced in the mid-60s Ford's twin I beam
suspension was a vast improvement over what the competitors were
offering (Chevy had IFS that wouldn't stay adjusted and everyone else
was still using solid front axles). Ford made a big deal out of the
twin I beam suspension and hated the idea of dropping it even after
competitors caught up and passed the design. However, even today for
an actual work truck, the twin I beam suspension is not a bad design
(and has some real advantages). But for the vast majority of truck
buyer, who only really need a car, the twin I beam doesn't ride or
handle as well as more modern IFS designs. So once again, people who
need truck as work vehicles are being penalized because the
manufacturers are building truck to appeal to people who really only
need a car. The new Tundra is a perfect example of a ridiculous truck.
I am sure it will be popular with the my truck is faster than your
truck crowd. But most likely it will be a lousy work truck for
somebody who has to pay for it.

> Any decent 4WD pickup with higher sidewall tires (75 series or
> higher)
> would probably be fine at speeds for conditions. Unfortunately, the
> "sport truck" craze has created lots of 4x4's with large wheels and
> small sidewalls, which are useless on rough low traction surfaces.
>
> You could always slow down when the roads are bad. Have you ever
> seen
> real four-wheelers traveling along a trail? They don't go very
> fast.
> Now you know why. <G>


Ed
 
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Discussion Starter #6
"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote :

> B A R R Y wrote:
>> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>>
>>> Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old
>>> pickup truck ads that showed the truck going down railroad
>>> ties with a glass of water on the dash, and not even spilling
>>> that water? What was that, some kind of special custom
>>> suspension?

>
> Mostly it required driving at the exact right speed :)
>
>
>> Ford Twin I-beam. It had other negatives, like non-adjustable
>> camber
>> issues that ate tires. Also, railroad ties are constantly spaced,
>> and
>> filled with stones in between. Drive the right speed and the tire
>> will probably skip from tie-top to tie-top. Madison Ave. in action!

>
> Only if you didn't know how to adjust it. The early twin I beams were
> adjusted by bending. The later ones had eccentric sleeves that allowed
> caster/camber adjustment. Over the years my Father and myself owned
> many Fords with twin I beam front suspension. We never had a problem
> with front tire wear on any of them. We never actually had to have one
> aligned either. When introduced in the mid-60s Ford's twin I beam
> suspension was a vast improvement over what the competitors were
> offering (Chevy had IFS that wouldn't stay adjusted and everyone else
> was still using solid front axles). Ford made a big deal out of the
> twin I beam suspension and hated the idea of dropping it even after
> competitors caught up and passed the design. However, even today for
> an actual work truck, the twin I beam suspension is not a bad design
> (and has some real advantages). But for the vast majority of truck
> buyer, who only really need a car, the twin I beam doesn't ride or
> handle as well as more modern IFS designs. So once again, people who
> need truck as work vehicles are being penalized because the
> manufacturers are building truck to appeal to people who really only
> need a car. The new Tundra is a perfect example of a ridiculous truck.
> I am sure it will be popular with the my truck is faster than your
> truck crowd. But most likely it will be a lousy work truck for
> somebody who has to pay for it.
>


So what's the solution for this kind of thing then, with something like
that Matrix idea? If someone wants an AWD that gets good mileage like
the Matrix, but also wants a smooth ride on bumps like that? Can
anything cost effective be done with it?



--
- Mama Bear
 
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Discussion Starter #7
"Mama Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote :
>
>> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>>
>>> Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old
>>> pickup truck ads that showed the truck going down railroad
>>> ties with a glass of water on the dash, and not even spilling
>>> that water? What was that, some kind of special custom
>>> suspension?

>>
>> Ford Twin I-beam. It had other negatives, like non-adjustable camber
>> issues that ate tires. Also, railroad ties are constantly spaced, and
>> filled with stones in between. Drive the right speed and the tire

> will
>> probably skip from tie-top to tie-top. Madison Ave. in action!
>>
>> Any decent 4WD pickup with higher sidewall tires (75 series or higher)
>> would probably be fine at speeds for conditions. Unfortunately, the
>> "sport truck" craze has created lots of 4x4's with large wheels and
>> small sidewalls, which are useless on rough low traction surfaces.
>>
>> You could always slow down when the roads are bad. Have you ever seen
>> real four-wheelers traveling along a trail? They don't go very fast.
>> Now you know why. <G>
>>

>
> I don't know much about cars, but there's apparently no cost effective
> way to do what I want?


Unfortunately, the answer is no, or at least nobody has thought of one yet,
otherwise, it would be put into production.

> I don't want to go full speed anyway, there's ice, but would like a
> smooth ride anyway.
>


Keep in mind:

The softer the springs, the smoother the ride will feel but the more the
vehicle will tend to lean in turns and when braking.

The higher the ground clearance, the stiffer the springs have to be because
the vehicle will sway more.

The combination of a smooth ride, high ground clearance, and 4 wheel drive
tends to be expensive, like a Range Rover, Lexus GX 470, Sequoia, Land
Cruiser.

Skip the requirement for high ground clearance, and more affordable vehicles
like the Matrix, Rav4, and Highlander are in the mix.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 
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Discussion Starter #8
"Mama Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> So what's the solution for this kind of thing then, with something like
> that Matrix idea? If someone wants an AWD that gets good mileage like
> the Matrix, but also wants a smooth ride on bumps like that? Can
> anything cost effective be done with it?


Does a Matrix ride all that poorly? I'd suggest you look a t a Subaru. They
have a better 4WD system that the Toyota.

Ed
 
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Discussion Starter #9
"Mama Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote :
>
>> If you are looking for all-wheel or 4 wheel drive vehicles with good
>> fuel economy and ease of entry and egress, besides the Matrix, look
>> at the Rav4, CRV, and Subarus.

>
> Is the Matrix pretty decent with that then?
>
>
>
> --
> - Mama Bear,


When it comes to ride comfort, I hate giving recommendations because what
feels OK to me might feel harsh or soft to someone else. For example,
people who are accustomed to Volvos, Mercedes, and BMW's might think that
the ride in a Toyota is too soft and mushy, while people who are used to
Toyota's feels the European cars are too harsh. For example, my wife, who
drives a 2003 Sequoia 4WD, rode in her boss's BMW 5 series car and thought
that it felt more like a truck than her SUV does.

Bottom line, the best way to determine if a particular vehicle fits your
needs is to take one for a test drive or rent one for a weekend. The cars I
mentioned, the Matrix, Rav4, CRV, and Subarus are relatively fuel-efficient
and available in AWD or 4WD. I believe the Honda Element is also available
in 4WD. The Highlander will be even more comfortable and easier to get in
and out of but not as fuel efficient as the smaller vehicles.

Everything in a car is a compromise. My 6 year old Lexus is very
comfortable, with heated and cooled seats in front, heated and massage in
rear, in-dash navigation, low and high intensity map lights, adjustable ride
height, etc. but it only gets 18 ~ 19 MPG around town.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 
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Discussion Starter #10
C. E. White wrote:

> Only if you didn't know how to adjust it. The early twin I beams were
> adjusted by bending. The later ones had eccentric sleeves that allowed
> caster/camber adjustment. Over the years my Father and myself owned
> many Fords with twin I beam front suspension. We never had a problem
> with front tire wear on any of them. We never actually had to have one
> aligned either.


I had a fleet of 14' hi-cubes. They ate tires, and apparently the
secret alignment technique never made it to local Ford dealers. Glad to
hear yours worked well.

I also had several king-pin problems over the years.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Mama Bear wrote:
>
> So what's the solution for this kind of thing then, with something like
> that Matrix idea? If someone wants an AWD that gets good mileage like
> the Matrix, but also wants a smooth ride on bumps like that? Can
> anything cost effective be done with it?


If you want a jacked up Matrix, check out the Subaru Forester or Outback.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote :

>
> "Mama Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>> So what's the solution for this kind of thing then, with something
>> like that Matrix idea? If someone wants an AWD that gets good
>> mileage like the Matrix, but also wants a smooth ride on bumps like
>> that? Can anything cost effective be done with it?

>
> Does a Matrix ride all that poorly? I'd suggest you look a t a
> Subaru. They have a better 4WD system that the Toyota.


Do they cost a lot more?




--
- Mama Bear
 
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Discussion Starter #13
"DH" <[email protected]> wrote :

> "Nomen Nescio" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> I've been doing process server work in a major metro area
>> ( Denver ) and am really getting to enjoy it. ( call me crazy :)
>>
>> For those not familiar, it involves serving legal papers on
>> people in the evenings and weekends.
>>
>> But you may have heard how snowy it's been here this winter and
>> the neighborhood streets have been horrible.
>>
>> Snowy bumps, sometimes 6-8" with holes down to the pavement,
>> so the car is driving in ruts and bottoming out etc.
>>
>> It's really rough riding and knocks your guys around.
>>
>> But here's my question. I'm starting my own company for this
>> business, I enjoy it so much.
>>
>> Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old
>> pickup truck ads that showed the truck going down railroad
>> ties with a glass of water on the dash, and not even spilling
>> that water? What was that, some kind of special custom
>> suspension?
>>
>> And then my mind starts thinking of those old "low riders"
>> that some of the latinos in LA were making. So here's my idea.
>>
>> I get something like a 3 year old AWD Matrix, something that
>> can go over snow and not get stuck all over the place.
>>
>> My present front wheel drive 93 Corolla wagon is a little
>> tricky at times on snow. So I get an AWD Matrix for starters.
>>
>> Then I have it modified with a suspension like that, that can
>> ride totally smoothly over bad bumps, like these snowy streets.
>>
>> THEN I have it customized also with some electric or hydraulic
>> lifts ( not sure how the low riders do that ) so I can raise the
>> car maybe 6" above the base level?
>>
>> That would put the frame up high enough so it wouldn't bottom
>> on those snowy ruts in the street?
>>
>> Would that make it where I could cruise through those snowy
>> neighborhood streets, smoothly, and not even bottom the car?
>>
>> Would it also make it even easier for me ( I'm 6' tall ) to
>> get in and out, without having to bend so low?
>>
>> BUT, would it cost a fortune to do all that? That's my main
>> concern. CAN it be done, and would it cost a fortune that I
>> couldn't afford?
>>
>> Thoughts?

>
> I think a Matrix with a lift kit and oversize wheels/tires might get
> more attention than you want.
>
> The kind of rough-road performance you want will be difficult to get
> in a vehicle with small wheels that can drop into holes. I think if I
> were you, I'd be looking for a more anonymous, even if larger,
> AWD/4WD vehicle. Maybe an older 4Runner or a Jeep Wranger or
> Cherokee. Denver must be lousy with Jeeps.


The jeeps that turn over if you corner too fast? :)

And I AM looking for at least 25-30 MPG, not 10?





--
- Mama Bear
 
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Discussion Starter #14
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:19:57 -0600, Mama Bear <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote :
>
>>
>> "Mama Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>>> So what's the solution for this kind of thing then, with something
>>> like that Matrix idea? If someone wants an AWD that gets good
>>> mileage like the Matrix, but also wants a smooth ride on bumps like
>>> that? Can anything cost effective be done with it?

>>
>> Does a Matrix ride all that poorly? I'd suggest you look a t a
>> Subaru. They have a better 4WD system that the Toyota.

>
>Do they cost a lot more?


I'd check out having a car serviced, before I bought it...

I've heard some horror stories about Subaru parts availability...


--

Scott in Florida

'Let every nation know, whether it
wishes us well or ill, that we shall
pay any price, bear any burden,
meet any hardship, support any friend,
oppose any foe to assure the survival
and the success of liberty.'

John F. Kennedy
 
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Discussion Starter #15
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:23:34 -0600, Mama Bear <[email protected]>
wrote:

>B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote :
>
>> Mama Bear wrote:
>>>
>>> So what's the solution for this kind of thing then, with something
>>> like that Matrix idea? If someone wants an AWD that gets good
>>> mileage like the Matrix, but also wants a smooth ride on bumps like
>>> that? Can anything cost effective be done with it?

>>
>> If you want a jacked up Matrix, check out the Subaru Forester or
>> Outback.
>>

>
>
>Are they as reliable as a Toyota? Cost the same? Good MPG? Well built?
>
>I'm really sold on Toyota right now. This 93 wagon is the most reliable
>car I've ever owned. Kudos to Toyota.


Why get rid of the wagon?

--

Scott in Florida

'Let every nation know, whether it
wishes us well or ill, that we shall
pay any price, bear any burden,
meet any hardship, support any friend,
oppose any foe to assure the survival
and the success of liberty.'

John F. Kennedy
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Scott in Florida wrote:
>
> I've heard some horror stories about Subaru parts availability...
>



You're in FL, so I can see you hearing them.

Here in New England, the OP's Colorado, the Pacific Northwest, etc...
Subaru dealers (and wrecked versions in parts yards) are on every corner.

While they may be less reliable overall than a Toyota, my Outback was
truly the best snow car ever. It was far better than my Tacoma, my
Jeep, and my buddy's AWD Matrix. The Matrix is ALMOST there, but it
lacks the ground clearance and higher roofed access (for easy driver
in/out) that the Outback has.

There's a reason Subarus are so popular with mail carriers in snow country.
 
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Discussion Starter #17
"Mama Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "DH" <[email protected]> wrote :
>
>> "Nomen Nescio" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> I've been doing process server work in a major metro area
>>> ( Denver ) and am really getting to enjoy it. ( call me crazy :)
>>>
>>> For those not familiar, it involves serving legal papers on
>>> people in the evenings and weekends.
>>>
>>> But you may have heard how snowy it's been here this winter and
>>> the neighborhood streets have been horrible.
>>>
>>> Snowy bumps, sometimes 6-8" with holes down to the pavement,
>>> so the car is driving in ruts and bottoming out etc.
>>>
>>> It's really rough riding and knocks your guys around.
>>>
>>> But here's my question. I'm starting my own company for this
>>> business, I enjoy it so much.
>>>
>>> Now those of us who are a little older, remember those old
>>> pickup truck ads that showed the truck going down railroad
>>> ties with a glass of water on the dash, and not even spilling
>>> that water? What was that, some kind of special custom
>>> suspension?
>>>
>>> And then my mind starts thinking of those old "low riders"
>>> that some of the latinos in LA were making. So here's my idea.
>>>
>>> I get something like a 3 year old AWD Matrix, something that
>>> can go over snow and not get stuck all over the place.
>>>
>>> My present front wheel drive 93 Corolla wagon is a little
>>> tricky at times on snow. So I get an AWD Matrix for starters.
>>>
>>> Then I have it modified with a suspension like that, that can
>>> ride totally smoothly over bad bumps, like these snowy streets.
>>>
>>> THEN I have it customized also with some electric or hydraulic
>>> lifts ( not sure how the low riders do that ) so I can raise the
>>> car maybe 6" above the base level?
>>>
>>> That would put the frame up high enough so it wouldn't bottom
>>> on those snowy ruts in the street?
>>>
>>> Would that make it where I could cruise through those snowy
>>> neighborhood streets, smoothly, and not even bottom the car?
>>>
>>> Would it also make it even easier for me ( I'm 6' tall ) to
>>> get in and out, without having to bend so low?
>>>
>>> BUT, would it cost a fortune to do all that? That's my main
>>> concern. CAN it be done, and would it cost a fortune that I
>>> couldn't afford?
>>>
>>> Thoughts?

>>
>> I think a Matrix with a lift kit and oversize wheels/tires might get
>> more attention than you want.
>>
>> The kind of rough-road performance you want will be difficult to get
>> in a vehicle with small wheels that can drop into holes. I think if I
>> were you, I'd be looking for a more anonymous, even if larger,
>> AWD/4WD vehicle. Maybe an older 4Runner or a Jeep Wranger or
>> Cherokee. Denver must be lousy with Jeeps.

>
> The jeeps that turn over if you corner too fast? :)


Problem:
Vehicle rolls over when cornering too fast.

Solution:
Slow down when cornering..

Anyway, I'm not aware that recent Jeeps had a particular potential for
rollover but you can check rankings yourself at www.safercar.gov.

If you jack up a Matrix or Corolla, you're going to increase its rollover
potential, too.

If decent MPG is another want, you should probably look at a Subaru.

> And I AM looking for at least 25-30 MPG, not 10?
>
> --
> - Mama Bear






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Discussion Starter #18
"Mama Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
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<snipped>

> The kind of rough-road performance you want will be difficult to get
>> in a vehicle with small wheels that can drop into holes. I think if I
>> were you, I'd be looking for a more anonymous, even if larger,
>> AWD/4WD vehicle. Maybe an older 4Runner or a Jeep Wranger or
>> Cherokee. Denver must be lousy with Jeeps.

>
> The jeeps that turn over if you corner too fast? :)
>
> And I AM looking for at least 25-30 MPG, not 10?
>

Any vehicle with a high center of gravity can roll over if you turn too
fast. A shorter wheelbase tend to make the tendency to roll over even
worse. IOW, the Wrangler will probably be less stable than a Cherokee.
Wranglers are more likely to have a choppy or harsh ride.
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Discussion Starter #19
"DH" <[email protected]> wrote :

>> The jeeps that turn over if you corner too fast? :)

>
> Problem:
> Vehicle rolls over when cornering too fast.
>
> Solution:
> Slow down when cornering..


Or maybe they could design them better? :)


> If you jack up a Matrix or Corolla, you're going to increase its
> rollover potential, too.


I probably can't afford that anyway, yet alone the problems it could
cause.

> If decent MPG is another want, you should probably look at a Subaru.


Doesn't the AWD Matrix get 25-30?



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Discussion Starter #20
Scott in Florida <[email protected]> wrote :

> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:23:34 -0600, Mama Bear <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote :
>>
>>> Mama Bear wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So what's the solution for this kind of thing then, with something
>>>> like that Matrix idea? If someone wants an AWD that gets good
>>>> mileage like the Matrix, but also wants a smooth ride on bumps like
>>>> that? Can anything cost effective be done with it?
>>>
>>> If you want a jacked up Matrix, check out the Subaru Forester or
>>> Outback.
>>>

>>
>>
>>Are they as reliable as a Toyota? Cost the same? Good MPG? Well built?
>>
>>I'm really sold on Toyota right now. This 93 wagon is the most

reliable
>>car I've ever owned. Kudos to Toyota.

>
> Why get rid of the wagon?


It's just front wheel drive and I could really use 4WD or AWD for the
snow.


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