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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
longggggggg ranting.


so after much research it seems that it might cost to much to do anything with the 4ag. at first i though about doing a 2zzge and tuning it n/a to 200whp. since its a new engine and all it should be able to last many more years, i still might do this, however 2zz's price seem to be around $3,000 or more. and that will get me a 150whp engine, which i might be able to do building the 4age. however reading many na dyno's people spend about $2,000 on 4ages getting 120whp or so n/a.

boosted 4ag, it seems that on low boost as far as my research shows, a boosted 4age makes somewhere between 150-180whp 7psi / + psi (gt-2X turbo seems to be the best setup). this could come in the form of management as simple as a fmu with msd retarding module or as advanced as a standalone. a note that some of us na guys will have to start from the bottom up unlike gze guys. smallport is a little simplier already having the tough bottom end, but a con of just having to much compression. so you have a smallport like me, now you need pistons from a gze = $500, lets say you have good bearings and minimum machine work = another $100-200. now comes the gaskets/arp bolts = $200-300, then some misc parts like water pump and oil filter relocation kits = $300-400. now you have to buy the turbo setup = $300-700 depending on how lucky you are and how resorceful you are. managment fmu, msd btm = $400-600 or maybe a standalone $400-2,000. this all = $2,200-4,700. im sure the 4age is capable, but at this price only to get 150whp to maybe 250whp. i'm not sure how durable the c52 is when torque is increased 100-150%. this is all based off research maybe it could be done cheaper, or on the other hand cost even more.

the alternative that i have looked at. 2nd gen 3sgte, $1,000-1,500 you can use a s54 tranny off a celica. the s54 should be able to hold the 230whp im planning to have as long as i'm not aiming for 400whp. i have a whole celica parts car, but lets say you had to source a s54 it cost $100-150 from what i've seen. wiring can = free if your willing to tackle it yourself or $400-500 -dr. tweak. exhaust work and new belts things to get it up to spec = $400 - 500. the total on this bill is $1900-2650, and of course depending on how resourceful you are you might be able to do this for cheaper or maybe more.

conclusion, i know the 4age has potential and do love it, however for what i want. daily driven reliablity with a stock ecu intact while making 200+whp. the 3sgte meets what i'm looking for. i'm no longer planning to autocross as much as i used to. planning to only do test and tunes. i'm a little tired or doing field work for 3-4 hrs to only have 4-6minutes of seat time. whereas a test and tune atlest i can have up to 3+hr of seat time.

anyways this is meant to be a reaction thread. i would like to know what others think, those who has done it and those who are thinking about it also.
 

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If you are going for pure, reliable grunt (which you are if I read correctly) You just can't get around the 3S-GTE.
Even if you get hungry for more power, that would easibly be realized. There is a lot of aftermarket support for the engine.

To realize the same with a 4A-GE is going to cost more effort and certainly more money.

Only thing with the 3S-GTE is that it is not just a straight bolt in job. There is a fair amount of custom work that has to be done.
A guy from our club has put a 3S-GTE in his (formerly 1300cc 4E-FE) Corolla. And there was a lot of work he didn't forsee at first, so maybe the costs you are projecting for the 3S-GTE are a bit low.
I would up your budget for this swap a bit ;)

But like I said, it has been done and it cán be done.
If that meets all your demands and your not scared of a bit of custom work, then just go for it! :D
 

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Resident asshole
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There are 500+hp 4A-GXX's with relatively cheap costs... a 3S-GTE isnt a walk in the park to do. 3S-GTE is most likely going to hit the firewall, it does so in a AE82, so I'm fairly positive it would do the same in the 92 aswell. Plus the pax side engine mount needs to be cut and put onto another place...plus drive shafts as the car you're getting them from has a wider track... etc etc.. All in all that 3S-GTE has stock 256hp (4th gen) so its not that special, heck I could pull that off with a 4A-FE turbo :lol:, granted it can be a better platform, but its also heavier.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
welding is not a problem i have guys that can help with that. i also work with a guy that did this to his ae101 corolla. he used a s54 tranny also with the celica axles. i'm not 100% sure, but he claims that the celica axles from the s54 fits the ae101's hub.

when i talk about reliable i mean that the engine will last atlest 200,000 miles. which a 3sgte will have a better chance at it then a 4agte with the same power. an engine with more displacement simply has less stress. i've owned a turbo mr2 before and know my way around the 3s. how are these guys making 500whp on the 4ag's.

as far as weight i'm sure a 4agte with an E series tanny weighs pretty close to a 3sgte with an s54.


if i could build a 4agte for less then the swap i would rather go that route. i just wanna stay with the factory ecu since i don't know if i want to deal with a standalone. i have considered doing a gt-25 setup with a fmu, msd btm and a little uprated injectors.
 

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i just wanna stay with the factory ecu since i don't know if i want to deal with a standalone.
Thats going to limit you with either engine.
i have considered doing a gt-25 setup with a fmu, msd btm and a little uprated injectors.
Thats considered an outdated bandaid way of adding fuel, plus you're going to have issues with the injectors as they'd still use the stock map, but now supply more fuel. You'd run rich all the time except when boosting. Also that MSD BTM is kinda old thing already, its very crude.

I'd rather use Megajolt (which I'm thinking about even) and have a complete 3D ignition map tailored for my needs and run wasted spark, rather than the shitty distributor type ignition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thats going to limit you with either engine.
yes i understand that. on my mr2 with a ct-27 i boosted 15.5psi and go somwhere around 220-230whp. i knew this was the limit of the stock coumputer. this is due to as you said there is no map for bigger injectors so adding bigger ones will result in what you say off boost, but atlest its past 200whp which for a fwd car would be already decent.

i do understand the 3sgte will weigh sligtly more even using the celicas lighter transmission.

i just don't see anyway around it, a 4agte setup might cost close to the swap. the only managment i would get is a megasquirt. however this car is my summer daily driver, i was actually considering running an unopend high comp with low boost with a good tune if i did do megasquirt, but i doubt there is that much room for tuning error with high compression.
 

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this is due to as you said there is no map for bigger injectors so adding bigger ones will result in what you say off boost
Right, but most of driving occurs off boost, rather than on boost, its gonna cause hesitation and running issues, as the closed loop operation with the O2 sensor is going to be sending mixed info to the ECU.

Well I'm running 9.5:1 compression at the moment with a very crude tune :p
 

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Homer Lusk Collyer
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yes i understand that. on my mr2 with a ct-27 i boosted 15.5psi and go somwhere around 220-230whp. i knew this was the limit of the stock coumputer. this is due to as you said there is no map for bigger injectors so adding bigger ones will result in what you say off boost, but atlest its past 200whp which for a fwd car would be already decent.
Stock gen2 3SGTE can run to around 275whp on stock fuel system and if you keep the AFM, it's pretty good about adapting to VE changes within that range.

I'd highly recommend the 3SGTE over 4AGE or any other Toyota 4 banger (including the ZZ series). Cheap, strong, easy to upgrade.

The biggest thing you have to worry about are the axles and engine mounts/oil pickup. If you put the engine mounts at the correct angle, you don't have to worry about the oil pickup. Otherwise, you will need to modify the oil pickup tube in the oil pan so you don't starve the engine of oil.

You might also want to look into using a Honda ECU for engine management. I'll be running a chipped P06 in my extra 3SGTE once I finish it.
 

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corolly
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i just don't see anyway around it, a 4agte setup might cost close to the swap. the only managment i would get is a megasquirt. however this car is my summer daily driver, i was actually considering running an unopend high comp with low boost with a good tune if i did do megasquirt, but i doubt there is that much room for tuning error with high compression.
ya but if you spent the extra money on the gze pistons, good rings, bearings, arp hardware and good gasket, maybe forged rods... your motor will be setup to run higher boost for performance without blowing a rod out the bottom lol.

as far as reliability. say you rebuilt the 4age for the turbo setup like above. you could invest in a boost controller so you can run a decent boost like 8lbs for daily driving and switch it quickly for performance to boost higher. then you have a completely rebuilt motor that will last for a good 200k depending on how hard you beat it. is the 3sgte gonna be a fresh motor when you get it? and wouldnt the built 4age be a little tougher to beat on with the upgraded internals?
 

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Homer Lusk Collyer
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The 3SGTE is a very strong engine. You can run an unopened block at 400whp. Plus you gain a fair amount of displacement over the 4A which will help your turbo spool and thus entire powerband (among other things).

I have the same engine that rdyzz did -- 3SGTE w/ CT27 @ a little over 1 bar. I cannot think how you'd build a reliable 4AGE for the same price that comes close in performance.
 

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The 3SGTE is a very strong engine. You can run an unopened block at 400whp. Plus you gain a fair amount of displacement over the 4A which will help your turbo spool and thus entire powerband (among other things).

I have the same engine that rdyzz did -- 3SGTE w/ CT27 @ a little over 1 bar. I cannot think how you'd build a reliable 4AGE for the same price that comes close in performance.
well obvioulsy i dont know a whole lot about 3sgte's! lol im here to learn
400whp..those are some beefy internals..
what sort of numbers can a unopened 4age smallport can handle?
 

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Mr. Nice Guy
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3sgte is the way to go if you want power

im just finishing my engine and im only expecting 200hpish and if i included the money i spent on my fuel system and ignition system we are probably talking about costs over 4000, granted its going to be na, its gonna have a limited life span and no drive ability under 3000rpms

with a 3sgte you could get more than 200hp for less money, and still have drive ability with lots of room to upgrade... why not a aftermarket ecu? megasquirt is cheap and effective

4age turbo is good too but you wont make over 200hp without good pistons if you're using a stock smallport, you could turbo it unopened, but it would be better to turbo it with at least getting a thick headgasket to lower compression, still with cast pistons if you are trying to push a smallport you will be running on borrowed time

definitely no argument against a 3sgte even though i would go with a a series motor every time
 

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You may find this link interesting:

http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm

i remember i saw that page awhile back. after doing some research the past couple days. im convinced the 3sgte is totally worth the work.

when you swap in the 3s you can use the stock ecu and just get your body harness to connect to the engine harness?
 

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corolly
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You mean using the 1.6 liter ECU? AFAIK the connectors are different.
i meant if you use the 2.0 ecu. would the connecters from the body harness plug into the plugs on the 2.0 engine harness?
 

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I would like to first say that a 2zz on lift with exhaust work sounds amazing, I would never do the swap myself unless I have more free money to play with as it would make a nice reliable daily driver set-up.

I was going back and forth between the 3sgte and 4agte when I was planning a swap and even when I was buying the gze somewhere in the back of my mind was telling me to go with a 3s. At the time I had not seen any good pics or write up of the swap into a ae92 but that has changed recently. Also earlier I was concerned with the weight factor as I recall the 3sgte weighs 80ish pounds more than a 4agze both with E series transmission. I don't know if you could correct this with playing with front spring rates and/or valving when lapping/auto-x which is something I want to play around with in the future. That being said I would rather drag and the 3s is the best it gets as far as toyota swaps go for us for shear torque.

A local has a swapped ae92 wagon with a 2nd gen 3s swap and it is easy to get in the bay. I guess the sw20 E153's share similar or possibly exact mount locations as the E52 and E58's from the 4agze ae92's and because 3 of the 4 mount location are based off the trans that leaves only one mount to fab for the passenger side mount which can be as simple as a piece of flat bar with a slight bend, I can take some pics of this if you need. This same car has a converted LSD E153 from the same sw20 mr2 and he is using ae101 Levin GTZ lsd axles which would be the hardest part to find, or make a custom set from mr2 inners and celica outers.

I guess it all comes down to what you plan on using the car for and if you could get the handling back in check with the added weight of the 3s. My converted gze to gte with stock ecu can boost to 15psi all day long with no boost cut and dyno's from similar set-ups have proven around 200-210hp to the wheels and 300 with aftermarket ecu and good tune. I will get mine dyno'd before it comes out, but I myself have been toying with the idea of a 5sgte for the sedan.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
yea im going back and fourth alot. one of the guys i work with did it to his brothers car using an s54. i read somewhere that the s54 will handle up to atlest 280whp. which is more then what im planning on having anyways. also im pretty sure the s54 weighs a good 20-30lbs less then the E series trannies. this would bring the weight very close to a 4agze swap with an E series tranny bolted right up. i do belive you can retune the front suspension using stiffer springs and shocks.

the reason i considered the 2zz was as you said. its a newer engine, reliable and weighs about a good 25lb less then the 4age. although 25lbs isnt going to make or break a street car, every bit helps lol. anyways from research 2zz's seem to be able to make up to 170whp on the stock ecu, but aiming for 200whp will require a standalone. this option is just so expensive. $3,000 for engine swap and prob $1,000 for misc. then you would need to make custom headers and cams to get it to 170whp. that will add up so fast. although im pretty sure with the weight of the ae92 170whp will bring it to the low 14's maybe high 13's with slicks.
 

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You ever thought of running a 4age on a honda ecu? Standalone could be free if you run it on crome. Just need a dizzy and matching sensors. However, the honda dizzy (from what i've read) has to be machined to fit the 4age.

But still, if you can solder, you're looking at maybe 100 bucks for a stand alone? Just thought i'd throw that out here.

There is a thread with an ae86 over on pgmfi.org that has a black top 20v running on crome. Made 136whp. Need to be a member to view it tho...

http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=13414&highlight=toyota&sid=9cac51fa0f8d319bb033d2a908669b9a

I think 7age would be a better match for your goals however.
 
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