I bought my '90 Toyota pickup Deluxe earier this year without knowing much about it, aside from the fact that it's 22R-E engine was considered to be one of the most reliable engines made by Toyota. With 141,000 miles on it, I quickly found out I needed a timing chain. The driver's side guide had broken, as is typical. I bought and installed a replacement chain kit from Toyota which included the chain as well as new guides, pulleys and the tensioner. I was amazed at how much quieter the engine has run since the chain slap has been removed. Here's the rub though: I still get anywhere from 0 to 2 seconds of chain noise when I first start the truck. The most I ever hear is 5 distinct "ticks," and sometimes I hear none. It's almost like my tensioner takes a few seconds to get oil pressure and take the slack out of the chain. Is this common? Is this going to greatly shorten the lifespan of my chain and guides? What is the chain actually hitting to cause the noise? And is there anything I can do about it? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
Timing chain noise...with new timing chain?
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That's a good idea...thank you...but I don't think that's my problem. My oil pump seemed to be in good condition, so I didn't replace it when I installed the new chain and such. I kept all the original bolts, except for 3 of 'em that I broke installing the water pump. (The torque spec was listed wrong in the Chilton's manual that I was using.)
Whatever the problem is, it goes away almost immediately after I start the engine. It seems to happen less often if it takes the engine longer to start...mostly when it's cold. If the engine is already warm and thus fires right up, the noise is louder and longer, but still no more than about 2 seconds worth. Then it's quiet, and I get none of the "broken guide" sound when you get off the throttle. It's very weird, and it bothers me quite a bit. The last thing I want to do right now is have to take the timing cover back off. And right now, I wouldn't even know what I've fixing, 'cause I have no idea what's causing it...
Whatever the problem is, it goes away almost immediately after I start the engine. It seems to happen less often if it takes the engine longer to start...mostly when it's cold. If the engine is already warm and thus fires right up, the noise is louder and longer, but still no more than about 2 seconds worth. Then it's quiet, and I get none of the "broken guide" sound when you get off the throttle. It's very weird, and it bothers me quite a bit. The last thing I want to do right now is have to take the timing cover back off. And right now, I wouldn't even know what I've fixing, 'cause I have no idea what's causing it...
I guess I didn't even know that it could take different size filters. I've got a Toyota filter on it that I picked up at the dealer, so I assume it's the smaller filter you mentioned.
If it IS an oil pressure-related issue (and I don't know that it is), would it be more beneficial to use a lighter weight, or a heavier weight oil? I'm using 10W-30 right now. I'd planned on using 5W-30 over the winter. I've only put about 3000 miles on the truck, but I've not noticed it burning any oil at all at this point, so the light oil should be fine, so long as it would help.
If it IS an oil pressure-related issue (and I don't know that it is), would it be more beneficial to use a lighter weight, or a heavier weight oil? I'm using 10W-30 right now. I'd planned on using 5W-30 over the winter. I've only put about 3000 miles on the truck, but I've not noticed it burning any oil at all at this point, so the light oil should be fine, so long as it would help.
Well, thanks for your help anyway. Maybe someone else has had this problem and might know what's causing it.
I guess I'm not really worried about it anyway, except that it might shorten the life of my chain guides, and I REALLY don't want to have to put new guides on again anytime soon!!!
I guess I'm not really worried about it anyway, except that it might shorten the life of my chain guides, and I REALLY don't want to have to put new guides on again anytime soon!!!
if your only hearing the sound for 2 seconds after start up, then dont worry about it. mine has done that for a long time. i take my valve cover off and check the timing chain and guides ever so often and they r fine. my advice is when u change your oil, just put in 4 quarts and then add 1/2 quart of STP oil treament. when u pour it in it will run right down on the chain and guides and make it slick as silk. so even if it takes 2 seconds for your oil pressure to come up, u might hear the rattle but the chain will be lubed still any way. that oil treatment stuff clings to it better than oil alone.
Slacker, you the man! Thanks for the photos! I have always paid great attention to the bolts locations of the front casting on the 22r/re, but I never saw one of the actual reasons before.
I may be lucky/cursed/deaf, but I have never heard the 22r/re "death rattle" that so many hear as a result of the driver side chain-wear rubbing a hole in the casting @ the upper coolant inlet (alternator side). My own 22r casting showed moderate wear in this area. I ended up using a set of DOA metal guides, but I have heard an earlier set of 20r metal guides can be thinned to fit the shallower 22r/re chain housing.
TOYOTA USA specs a number of filters, but the most common one is made by Purolator (the Pure One equivalent in Toyota clothes).
Oil Filter FO-8.....08922-02011. The much maligned FRAM filter seems to have A BUNCH more oil drain out of it upon removal, but the quality seems to be suspect among YOTA heads.
Some claim the 08922-02011 filter can have a defective anti-backflow valve that lets oil drain out and back into the pan. Other more "highly regarded" Japanese filters have been recently discontinued are different on the inside....blah blah blah. This is another topic altogether. I still use the FO-8 myself. Yes, less oil drains out of it than the Fram.
Another noisy source on the 22r/re are the intake rocker spacers on cylinder #2 and #3. Buy two of these spacers ($5 each), install new FACTORY rocker tips at these locations, and quiet your engine down even more:
link:
http://www.wheelingadventures.com/Tech/Fixs.htm
These can be installed with mininmal effort on a completely assembled head!
Owners must still remember that these engines were designed in the relatively crude Japanese era of the 1970's. Engine noises/tranny noises were/are the nature of the beast. Maybe you can get someone to start the engine while you listen to the chain housing with a stethescope.
I may be lucky/cursed/deaf, but I have never heard the 22r/re "death rattle" that so many hear as a result of the driver side chain-wear rubbing a hole in the casting @ the upper coolant inlet (alternator side). My own 22r casting showed moderate wear in this area. I ended up using a set of DOA metal guides, but I have heard an earlier set of 20r metal guides can be thinned to fit the shallower 22r/re chain housing.
TOYOTA USA specs a number of filters, but the most common one is made by Purolator (the Pure One equivalent in Toyota clothes).
Oil Filter FO-8.....08922-02011. The much maligned FRAM filter seems to have A BUNCH more oil drain out of it upon removal, but the quality seems to be suspect among YOTA heads.
Some claim the 08922-02011 filter can have a defective anti-backflow valve that lets oil drain out and back into the pan. Other more "highly regarded" Japanese filters have been recently discontinued are different on the inside....blah blah blah. This is another topic altogether. I still use the FO-8 myself. Yes, less oil drains out of it than the Fram.
Another noisy source on the 22r/re are the intake rocker spacers on cylinder #2 and #3. Buy two of these spacers ($5 each), install new FACTORY rocker tips at these locations, and quiet your engine down even more:
link:
http://www.wheelingadventures.com/Tech/Fixs.htm
These can be installed with mininmal effort on a completely assembled head!
Owners must still remember that these engines were designed in the relatively crude Japanese era of the 1970's. Engine noises/tranny noises were/are the nature of the beast. Maybe you can get someone to start the engine while you listen to the chain housing with a stethescope.
The noise itself doesn't bother me at all. Heck, I have a partially rusted-out Flowmaster exhaust on the truck. I just figure that if there's chain slap at any point at all, it's a bad thing. Those chain guides were designed to have the chain run along them, not bounce off of them...
Thanks for all the tips though. I have a feeling that this won't be my last Toyota truck, so I'm trying to learn as much about it as I can.
Thanks for all the tips though. I have a feeling that this won't be my last Toyota truck, so I'm trying to learn as much about it as I can.
Hey guys, Hope I'm not intruding, but I had to change out my t-chain @ 86k. The truck now has 182k, and I'm thinking I'll be having to do it again. My ex-boss suggested scrounging up everything to do a double row chain kit conversion, and while surfing the net, I found this;
http://209.250.27.45/m1webgear/ProductDetails.aspx?PartID=1015012&PartRevisionID=
Sound too expensive??
http://209.250.27.45/m1webgear/ProductDetails.aspx?PartID=1015012&PartRevisionID=
Sound too expensive??
Yes, it does seem pricey...considering that 22r/22re chains are NOT known for breaking regularly. The chain is plenty strong. The chain IS known for wearing out all the parts it contacts:Bill C. said:
*the plastic chain guides
*the tensioner
*the aluminum timing chain cover after the plastic guides are busted off and land in the oil pan.
*the top and bottom spockets that the chain contacts (these suckers really shrink in diameter by wear, and along with chain stretch...retards cam timing).
A cheaper solution is to use steel timing chain guides for a 22r/re that can be located at DOA Racing or
www.engnbldr.com
EB (Ted) is known for his quality parts and is a guru on our engines. He is an older fella (not a quick buck artist), and sells entire chain kits too.
EDIT: I saw noticed that the LCE kit in the link had a water pump in the photo. This may be more added fluff. There is no known person on this planet that I have come across that believes any water pump is better than the FACTORY TOYOTA water pump. I have gone through a few GMB water pumps. These claim to be "brand new...made in Japan". This means nothing.
Joined
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906 Posts
thats because they STRECH ... in my opinion ... a steel guide is a farce .. measure an old chain ...Rycam said:
because of the steel guide .. chain breakage is getting more popular ... and you dont want that . 0 clearance .
I put a duel chain set up in my /84 im building ... it came stock with the single chain , but in that year , an easy and inexpencive conversion ... its a little noisier , and they say it robbs a little horse power , but i'm comfortable in knowing that it will last as long as the engine will .
just my 2c
timing chain
Hey fellas, are you saying that the DOA kit isn't worth the 275.00 ? Looked like quality parts to me and everything went smooth with no noise when done. Yes, 65.00 would be a better price for everything, buy don't you fellas think you are getting what you pay for. I, for one, think DOA RACING is selling quality parts that you are paying for. The guides are superior, bar none! Now, if I may ask, how do I get this 22re 4x4 to get out of its own way. Timing perfect. New cap,wires and plugs. Compression 195 on all 4. No codes. stock gears and tires. Will add K&n and will have the catalitic converted checked. This truck will just bearly pull 5th gear. No wind or hills. Thanks fellas. Tim
Hey fellas, are you saying that the DOA kit isn't worth the 275.00 ? Looked like quality parts to me and everything went smooth with no noise when done. Yes, 65.00 would be a better price for everything, buy don't you fellas think you are getting what you pay for. I, for one, think DOA RACING is selling quality parts that you are paying for. The guides are superior, bar none! Now, if I may ask, how do I get this 22re 4x4 to get out of its own way. Timing perfect. New cap,wires and plugs. Compression 195 on all 4. No codes. stock gears and tires. Will add K&n and will have the catalitic converted checked. This truck will just bearly pull 5th gear. No wind or hills. Thanks fellas. Tim
Joined
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34 Posts
Did you ever find out what was making the timing chain noise? I am about to replace mine with a kit from http://www.partsdinosaur.com/ and only want to do it once. Any advice would be good.
update is bad and good
Fellas, i will update you guys on my findings. No power caused by tps not closing and running 20 degrees late. Bad news, got timing right on and heard knock in lowe end. Put a 85 motor home 22re engine in with 36,000 miles on it and runs perfect. The noise you hear at start up for 5 seconds is the slack chain from the tensioner in the released position before it pumps up. The antibackflow filter from toyota helps, but will not totally solve this momentary rattle. I crank a few seconds and off and then start, no rattle. If you put plastic guides back in, believe me that you will be back in there. If you just get the steel guides only from D>O>A> racing, your done with the chain issue. One tip for you guys doing this project, if the gasket comes off with the cover on top side of cover, this is actually head gasket material and must be replaced when going back together as this spacing is critical because when you tighten the hidden bolt under the sprocket, you will break the cover if you neglect this gasket. Get a neww head gasket and trim the front piece you need and your set. On top use rtv ultra copper, good stuff. Guys, 85.00 is a lot of money for two steel guides, but believe me you only want to do this job once!!! Don't use Bosh plugs, these motors don't like them! Tim
Fellas, i will update you guys on my findings. No power caused by tps not closing and running 20 degrees late. Bad news, got timing right on and heard knock in lowe end. Put a 85 motor home 22re engine in with 36,000 miles on it and runs perfect. The noise you hear at start up for 5 seconds is the slack chain from the tensioner in the released position before it pumps up. The antibackflow filter from toyota helps, but will not totally solve this momentary rattle. I crank a few seconds and off and then start, no rattle. If you put plastic guides back in, believe me that you will be back in there. If you just get the steel guides only from D>O>A> racing, your done with the chain issue. One tip for you guys doing this project, if the gasket comes off with the cover on top side of cover, this is actually head gasket material and must be replaced when going back together as this spacing is critical because when you tighten the hidden bolt under the sprocket, you will break the cover if you neglect this gasket. Get a neww head gasket and trim the front piece you need and your set. On top use rtv ultra copper, good stuff. Guys, 85.00 is a lot of money for two steel guides, but believe me you only want to do this job once!!! Don't use Bosh plugs, these motors don't like them! Tim
Re: update is bad and good
Now THERE's something I haven't heard. I'm using a cheap NAPA oil filter right now. I suppose a good Toyota filter could potentially help. I've tried cranking/off thing as well. It works when the engine is cold, but I rarely get the noise then anyway. When the engine is hot, it fires too quick to do that.
Since I'm new to the Toyota truck scene, I researched and considered both the steel and plastic guides. Having put in OEM plastic guides, I know I'll probably have to get back in there at some point, and it'll likely be much sooner that I'd like. But I will say that I'd MUCH rather have the guides break as the chain, which is what is more likely to happen over the long haul with metal guides.
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