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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
15 years ago, TMMK (Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky) Camry's were noticeably inferior to Japanese ones when it came to build quality. Has the situation improved? While I didn’t expect perfection, I also didn’t expect build quality to be this bad. Apparently TMMK hasn’t improved much. To be clear, I realize build quality and long term reliability aren’t tightly coupled… hopefully. These are small details, but ones I feel TMMK should address, otherwise they come off to me as sloppy. The purpose of this post is part venting, but mostly hoping this is helpful to prospective Avalon buyers - it’s good to know what you’re getting into when it comes to build quality. So here we go, standard disclaimer: the following images may be disturbing to those who like details, viewer discretion is advised.

295499


There are panel gaps, and then there are panel gaps. What you see here is so big that you can actually access the bolt peeking through if you press the plastic to its side. I’ve never touched or removed this panel before, this is fresh from the factory, Kentucky proud.

295500


In the driver’s side foot well, follow the steering wheel column down to where the brake pedal is, there is a plastic O-ring around this column with foam insulation inside it. Only thing is, my O-ring is not secured, it just flaps open, making the insulation loose and fall out. Maybe the O-ring ripped open, who knows, either way, it's sloppy.

295501


I’ve had sunroofs before, none with a corner gap like this. Not sure if it’s related, there is a consistent rattle coming from here somewhere, I’ll have to hunt it down and hopefully it’ll be something I can fix.

295502


Rear trunk goo over spray. Not sure what this is, some type of prep substance that wasn’t properly removed. It ran along the length below the bottom of the rear glass and on the inside of the trunk lid.

295503


I’ve never touched or removed the trunk liner, it only looks like I did based on how wavy it is.

I’ll be updating this list when I have more time, so be sure to check back for more exciting pictures 😊
 

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straight cash homie
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Before delving into the details, it may help to provide context of who I am and where I come from. I am neither Japanese or American, so I consider myself a neutral observer, although I do have a deep history with Toyota products, going back to my father’s Crown in the 80’s, to my first vehicle a 1996 RAV4.
So I also owned a 96 RAV4 too as my first car, and regret ever selling it. It was built tight and what made me like Toyota. Does your car care what nationality the owner is? I don't find not being Japanese or American relevant the discussion.

Truth is, there were some Camrys built in Japan again, albeit in 2017 during the launch period of the 2018 model. Not sure if there are any J-VIN Camrys coming in now. The same has happened with the Corolla, where the new 2020 launch saw many of the new sedans being built there as well (all hatches come from Japan). Even when my dad has his 2007 Camry Hybrid also built in Japan, it wasn't flawless but it was more of the product of the times that Toyota had to cost cut, as there was some squeaking here and there. Even my 2009 Corolla built in the USA at the now closed NUMMI plant was nowhere near the quality of my 96 RAV either. In 15 years, things have changed clearly. Toyota has had to cost cut much like much of its industry peers.
 

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So I also owned a 96 RAV4 too as my first car, and regret ever selling it. It was built tight and what made me like Toyota. Does your car care what nationality the owner is? I don't find not being Japanese or American relevant the discussion.

Truth is, there were some Camrys built in Japan again, albeit in 2017 during the launch period of the 2018 model. Not sure if there are any J-VIN Camrys coming in now. The same has happened with the Corolla, where the new 2020 launch saw many of the new sedans being built there as well (all hatches come from Japan). Even when my dad has his 2007 Camry Hybrid also built in Japan, it wasn't flawless but it was more of the product of the times that Toyota had to cost cut, as there was some squeaking here and there. Even my 2009 Corolla built in the USA at the now closed NUMMI plant was nowhere near the quality of my 96 RAV either. In 15 years, things have changed clearly. Toyota has had to cost cut much like much of its industry peers.
Everything is hit or miss and it still is. Honestly nowadays, compared to other 2008 era vehicles I see on the rode Toyota's are still the highest. Ford 500 or whatever it was called? That thing is sort of a joke. Chevy Malibu or Impala? I see them around. Toyota quality is still high. Fit and finish? If I don't see it I won't care. I'm not actively looking to find what is bad about a vehicle. If anything, the OP just bought a lot of lemons. Then again, I am still on my first car and the only car I am gonna own for a rather long time.

Life is about taking chances, it will or it will not.
 

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Everything is hit or miss and it still is. Honestly nowadays, compared to other 2008 era vehicles I see on the rode Toyota's are still the highest. Ford 500 or whatever it was called? That thing is sort of a joke. Chevy Malibu or Impala? I see them around. Toyota quality is still high. Fit and finish? If I don't see it I won't care. I'm not actively looking to find what is bad about a vehicle. If anything, the OP just bought a lot of lemons. Then again, I am still on my first car and the only car I am gonna own for a rather long time.

Life is about taking chances, it will or it will not.
Honestly, I couldn't care what Ford or Chevy were back then, because I never owned one of them. But comparing different era Camrys together, you could tell the difference. The 2007 and up Camrys had a lot of cost cutting. My family owned a 04 and a 97, both made in Japan. Regardless of where they made, it wasn't assembly place, but rather that Toyota used better plastics in those prior generations. My 09 Corolla is also a symptom of that cost cutting and lots more hard touch plastic that proliferated late 2000s Toyota products. I have no attachment to my Corolla, like I did RAV4, even though it has a lot of the things I wanted in a car (moonroof, stick shift, etc.), but I've been bored of it for quite a while already. I think as an enthusiast, you get interested in other cars and want to own them, and may not have an attachment to things as much.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Honestly, I couldn't care what Ford or Chevy were back then, because I never owned one of them. But comparing different era Camrys together, you could tell the difference. The 2007 and up Camrys had a lot of cost cutting. My family owned a 04 and a 97, both made in Japan. Regardless of where they made, it wasn't assembly place, but rather that Toyota used better plastics in those prior generations. My 09 Corolla is also a symptom of that cost cutting and lots more hard touch plastic that proliferated late 2000s Toyota products. I have no attachment to my Corolla, like I did RAV4, even though it has a lot of the things I wanted in a car (moonroof, stick shift, etc.), but I've been bored of it for quite a while already. I think as an enthusiast, you get interested in other cars and want to own them, and may not have an attachment to things as much.
90's era vehicles were bulletproof regardless of brand. This was before globalization and IIHS, who exposed in the 80's/90's what a death trap most vehicles were (in fact, the 1996 RAV4 had virtually no crash protection). A strong safety cage and air bag systems aren't cheap, they had to cut costs in other areas. Anyway, generational differences is a whole conversation in itself. The thrust of this thread is, if the Avalon today was made in Aichi, I wouldn't be seeing these build quality issues.
 

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Before delving into the details, it may help to provide context of who I am and where I come from. I am neither Japanese or American, so I consider myself a neutral observer, although I do have a deep history with Toyota products, going back to my father’s Crown in the 80’s, to my first vehicle a 1996 RAV4. Since then, I’ve owned everything from a Scion xA (aka Ist) to a V8 4Runner, three Camry’s, and now an Avalon Hybrid (all of them made in Japan with the exception of the Avalon). On a personal level, I have an eye and ear for build quality, and usually the better it is, the better the vehicle holds up over time (combined with good routine maintenance of course), so it’s important to me. It wasn’t until I started my run of three Camry’s (all VX30’s) did I see a difference between made-in-Japan and made-in-USA. During 2002 through 2006 there was a good mix of Aichi and Kentucky (TMMK) made Camry’s in the USA, so I could easily compare them. On the interior, I was shocked how many squeeks and rattles were present in the Kentucky Camry’s, and on the exterior, the most telling was the unusually low exhaust bend that was absent on Aichi Camry’s. After 6 years, my 2005 Camry SE V6 surprised passengers who thought it was a newer car based on how well it drove and held up, whereas the same ones made in USA showed a significant difference in noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH). I swore then that I would never buy anything from TMMK.

Fast-forward 10 years, and here I am with a TMMK Avalon hybrid. What happened? Now there are no more Camry’s made in Japan. There are still RAV4 hybrids made in Japan, but they are selling so well that discounts are minimal. Avalon discounts are generous, and 15 years have passed since the 2005 Camry, surely TMMK has improved. Combine that with consistent and excellent Consumer Reports long-term reliability, and here we are. While I didn’t expect perfection, I also didn’t expect build quality to be this bad. Apparently TMMK hasn’t improved much. To be clear, I realize build quality and long term reliability aren’t tightly coupled… hopefully. These are just small details, but ones I feel TMMK should address, otherwise they come off to me as sloppy. The purpose of this post is part venting, but mostly hoping this is helpful to prospective Avalon buyers - it’s good to know what you’re getting into when it comes to build quality. So here we go, standard disclaimer: the following images may be disturbing to those who like details, viewer discretion is advised.

View attachment 295499

There are panel gaps, and then there are panel gaps. What you see here is so big that you can actually access the bolt peeking through if you press the plastic to its side. I’ve never touched or removed this panel before, this is fresh from the factory, Kentucky proud.

View attachment 295500

Take a peek in the driver’s side foot well, and follow the steering wheel column down to where the brake pedal is, there is a plastic O-ring around this column with foam insulation inside it. Only thing is, my O-ring is not secured, is just flaps open, making the insulation loose and fall out. Maybe the O-ring ripped open, who knows, either way, it's sloppy.

View attachment 295501

I’ve had sunroofs before, none with a corner gap like this. Not sure if it’s related, there is a consistent rattle coming from here somewhere, I’ll have to hunt it down and hopefully it’ll be something I can fix.

View attachment 295502

Rear trunk goo (whatever it is) overspray. Never had this on any vehicle, some type of prep substance that wasn’t properly removed. It ran along the length below the bottom of the rear glass and on the inside of the trunk lid.

View attachment 295503

Looks like the liner was removed a few times based on how wavy it is, but it was like this from the beginning. I’ve never touched or removed the trunk liner, it only looks like I did.

I’ll be updating this list when I have more time, so be sure to check back for more exciting pictures 😊
My first Toyota was a 1984 Camry DLX, 4 cylinder, cloth interior, am/fm radio, crank windows, manual door locks, and five speed manual transmission, built in Japan, and it was a wonderful (although very basic) vehicle. It survived my three sons learning how to drive, each in turn, and also how to learn to drive a manual transmission, and was handed down from son to son as each bought their own vehicle eventually.

The assembly companies (they really are just an assembly of parts from various component manufacturers) want everyone to believe that each vehicle will be perfect, but we know that's not true because we can see the proof in individual vehicles.

Because if this variability in assembly quality / fit and finish, we always examine very carefully each prospective vehicle purchase for this type of assembly fit issues, and won't buy the specific example unless it is pretty solid in assembly.

It's too bad that you didn't notice all these deficiencies in assembly quality until after you bought the car.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Because if this variability in assembly quality / fit and finish, we always examine very carefully each prospective vehicle purchase for this type of assembly fit issues, and won't buy the specific example unless it is pretty solid in assembly.

It's too bad that you didn't notice all these deficiencies in assembly quality until after you bought the car.
I wish I had 20 samples to choose from, but mine was the last MY2019 XSE hybrid on the East Coast back in January 2020 that wasn't a demo vehicle, the discount on it was significant ($33k before ttl), not as amazing as some deals posted here, but enough for me to bite.
 

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"My point in this post is, if the Avalon today was made in Aichi, I wouldn't be seeing these build quality issues"

I'm not so sure about that, speculation at best.

One thing to remember is that the cars of today are not the same cars of 10, 15, 20 years ago. Look at what is packed in the Avalon today. Considering all the air bags, cameras, sensors, ECM's, modules, whatever you choose to call them, the sophistication of today's vehicles is incredible. There are lots more to stuff into the car. Now for sure, there are some places where a mistake in fit and finish has no excuse and I'm sure that they could build the cars to a higher standard, but could we afford them then?
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
"My point in this post is, if the Avalon today was made in Aichi, I wouldn't be seeing these build quality issues"

I'm not so sure about that, speculation at best.

One thing to remember is that the cars of today are not the same cars of 10, 15, 20 years ago. Look at what is packed in the Avalon today. Considering all the air bags, cameras, sensors, ECM's, modules, whatever you choose to call them, the sophistication of today's vehicles is incredible. There are lots more to stuff into the car. Now for sure, there are some places where a mistake in fit and finish has no excuse and I'm sure that they could build the cars to a higher standard, but could we afford them then?
RAV4 Hybrids made in Japan and Canada, I took a careful look at both of them and neither had build quality issues like the Avalon. I would have got the RAV4 hybrid if it had the Avalon discounts.
 

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Im very happy with the build quality of my 2019 XSE. i cam from a 2017 Dodge Challenger R/T and comparing build quality's and gaps and fitment its like night and day difference.
Yes Japan still builds better cars, they always will. but a for built in North america its very very good. compared to other new cars i have rented or been in from the USA manufactures.rented a 2019 GMC Arcadia few months ago. what a peace of crap.
 

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I've lived long enough to see built in Japan go from cheap tin toys to the best cars ever made no matter where or when.
The peak was about 20 years ago, then things got dicey when complexity and cost became the prime concerns. Japan's work force was basically those who were not involved in WW2 and they grew old together and built cars together, with little internal strife. Labor strife was unknown while union sabotage in American built cars was really stupid, when you destroy the customers new vehicle to leverage wage hikes.
As costs in both Japan and the USA rose, the bottom line forced them to move production and sub component manufacturing to other countries. Call it what you wish, the aftermarket repair shops got an earful from customers, unhappy with their cars and replacement parts quality went from fabulous to abyssinal. I once told a customer if they bought a brand new car and replaced every part they could buy from Advance they would never have a reliable car.
Mercedes and BMW started moving their suppliers to Mexico and other countries and the replacement parts became unreliable, which progressed to the OE suppliers. Even with computers the quality still deteriorated.
At the same time the complexity increased almost exponentially, meaning as reliability deteriorated, the quality of original build factory parts fell off, either of which compounded the other.
I remember talking to a GM dealership repair department manager, who told me, our quality has improved so much that we now actually have to solicit customers, where before we did 90% warranty work, we now do 10% warranty work. That was 15 years ago.
Ever wonder why this has evolved this way almost precisely while the Chinese have become the principle suppliers of much of our computer components, the longevity expectation is regressing and vehicles have reached a high of 11 years average age.
All of this is reflected in my ownership of Toyotas of years 96,98 and 2000. The worst of the 3 is the Tacoma made in California. with the other two made in Japan. My Echo still has it's original paint and so does the Sienna, While the Tacoma has lost most of it's top and hood clearcoat. The Sienna's paint is in amazingly good condition, considering it was growing mold for years.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Im very happy with the build quality of my 2019 XSE. i cam from a 2017 Dodge Challenger R/T and comparing build quality's and gaps and fitment its like night and day difference.
Yes Japan still builds better cars, they always will. but a for built in North america its very very good. compared to other new cars i have rented or been in from the USA manufactures.rented a 2019 GMC Arcadia few months ago. what a peace of crap.
I agree! Mexican-made VW's and Ford's can also rival Chrysler and GM in the how-did-this-pass-any-inspection department.

All of this is reflected in my ownership of Toyotas of years 96,98 and 2000. The worst of the 3 is the Tacoma made in California. with the other two made in Japan. My Echo still has it's original paint and so does the Sienna, While the Tacoma has lost most of it's top and hood clearcoat. The Sienna's paint is in amazingly good condition, considering it was growing mold for years.
Nummi held the honor of making the worst Toyota's, the torch passed to TMMK after they sold it (or possibly SIA). Nummi was supposed to bring GM up to Toyota, but ended up bringing Toyota down to GM. Now they are making Tesla's at the same plant with the same questionable build quality.
 

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Glad to hear your car is running good. Since we're sharing Camry pics, here is mine, a 2005 Camry SE V6 made in Aichi:

View attachment 295576

View attachment 295577
Looks good on the 17" Solara wheels. I think those were the optional accessory bodykit? I'm trying to remmber if Molly Designs had created them or not...

I went from a RAV4 made in Japan to a NUMMI Corolla, my gosh I thought I was driving a Cavalier, as I had one as a company vehicle for a few months years ago, and the memories came back when I saw the hard touch plastic in it.
 

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Toyota first year build quality problems go way back. This is why in 2018 I chose a new 4th Gen Avalon over a 5th Gen. Here is an article from back in 2006:



My 4th Gen has been perfect.
 

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Speaking of California, I can't confirm this but I read somewhere the stickers on the trucks made in the Mexico plant don't show Mexico, just Baja California. If that's true, it seems a little shady, definitely misleading.

I've always heard the ones made in Japanese are better quality, put together better. I still love my Avalon but there are some things I've noticed.
1) I had a rattle start in the dash to the left of the steering wheel just above the air vent. Car is only 8 months old. It comes and goes but is annoying as hell. I need to look at it closer.
2) I've mentioned the road noise on other threads, where if a rock hits the bottom of the car its so loud that if I have a passenger they jump a little. Almost like they forgot a layer of insulation.
3) The rear left side of the car is riding lower than the rest of the car. Suspension is going out or went out or something. That quarter panel and wheel well cover is damn near touching the tire, and will touch it and rub if I hit a dip so I have to take it slow going in and out of driveways until I can take it in.
4) This is just a gripe, but the belt buckles are too far down in the back seat. At least for anyone under 8 or over 70, being my daughter in a booster seat and my grandmother.
5) I found paint peeling or chipped on the edges of the hood when the car was only three months old. It's not just in one spot. It's up and down both sides of the hood from the headlights to the windshield. I'm going to bring it up next time I go in for maintenance. I got a notification in the mail from Toyota in Sept or Oct about an issue with the Blizzard Pearl white paint peeling with the typical "we're working on a solution". That prompted me to check the car closely, otherwise I probably would've never noticed it. How often do you look at the side edges of the hood? It wasn't until a couple weeks later it randomly clicked in my mind and I realized the paint on my Avalon is Wind Chill Pearl white and that notice was for my white 17 Camry. I checked it and as far as paint peeling, no issues, though it did dull quickly. I put a lot of miles on that camry, but they were mostly highway. I won't go into it, but it feels like it got old way too fast, too much wear and tear relative to its age. Anyway, pics of the Avalon paint and camry notice below. It's not a huge deal but what if it spreads or gets worse. I'd like to know if anyone else has noticed this. I imagine I'll be getting a notice for this car too.

All that being said, there's still a lot that I like about it and I'll probably never buy another brand. Maybe a Honda. Quality going down is a disappointment, but they're still much better made than GM, Chrysler, Ford, and really anything else.

20200306_153943.jpg
20200306_153932.jpg
295590
 

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I agree with the headliner rattle and the sunroof cover not lining up/not closing all the way, I have tried to close it numerous time :(


15 years ago, TMMK Camry's were noticeably inferior to Japanese made ones when it came to build quality. Has the situation improved? While I didn’t expect perfection, I also didn’t expect build quality to be this bad. Apparently TMMK hasn’t improved much. To be clear, I realize build quality and long term reliability aren’t tightly coupled… hopefully. These are just small details, but ones I feel TMMK should address, otherwise they come off to me as sloppy. The purpose of this post is part venting, but mostly hoping this is helpful to prospective Avalon buyers - it’s good to know what you’re getting into when it comes to build quality. So here we go, standard disclaimer: the following images may be disturbing to those who like details, viewer discretion is advised.

View attachment 295499

There are panel gaps, and then there are panel gaps. What you see here is so big that you can actually access the bolt peeking through if you press the plastic to its side. I’ve never touched or removed this panel before, this is fresh from the factory, Kentucky proud.

View attachment 295500

In the driver’s side foot well, follow the steering wheel column down to where the brake pedal is, there is a plastic O-ring around this column with foam insulation inside it. Only thing is, my O-ring is not secured, it just flaps open, making the insulation loose and fall out. Maybe the O-ring ripped open, who knows, either way, it's sloppy.

View attachment 295501

I’ve had sunroofs before, none with a corner gap like this. Not sure if it’s related, there is a consistent rattle coming from here somewhere, I’ll have to hunt it down and hopefully it’ll be something I can fix.

View attachment 295502

Rear trunk goo over spray. Not sure what this is, some type of prep substance that wasn’t properly removed. It ran along the length below the bottom of the rear glass and on the inside of the trunk lid.

View attachment 295503

I’ve never touched or removed the trunk liner, it only looks like I did based on how wavy it is.

I’ll be updating this list when I have more time, so be sure to check back for more exciting pictures 😊
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Looks good on the 17" Solara wheels. I think those were the optional accessory bodykit? I'm trying to remmber if Molly Designs had created them or not...

I went from a RAV4 made in Japan to a NUMMI Corolla, my gosh I thought I was driving a Cavalier, as I had one as a company vehicle for a few months years ago, and the memories came back when I saw the hard touch plastic in it.
You remember :), yes those wheels were originally fitted on the Solara, but the gun-gray color was exclusive to the SE V6 Camry. Sorry I don't remember who the supplier was for the bodykit. The combination of the SE V6 with those wheels and bodykit elicited a must-have impulse, something I never got from the Camry since. Nummi has been a stain in Toyota's mostly successful history. Originally designed to bring GM up to Toyota, it ended up bringing Toyota down to GM.

Toyota first year build quality problems go way back. This is why in 2018 I chose a new 4th Gen Avalon over a 5th Gen.
My 4th Gen has been perfect.
Good point, this was weighing on my mind considerably. I took a close look at the gen 4 Avalon, but coming from a BMW, the hit to driving dynamics was too big. The gen 5 and tnga-k significantly closed the gap in that department, and hopefully I can live with these build quality issues.

Anyway, pics of the Avalon paint and camry notice below. It's not a huge deal but what if it spreads or gets worse. I'd like to know if anyone else has noticed this. I imagine I'll be getting a notice for this car too.
Would love to help, but my Avalon is Parisian Blue and I wouldn't be able to see something like that even if I had it (I probably do based on how my interior is ;))
 

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I remember a Ford customer coming in and complaining about seeing "snow" when he drove at higher speeds. It was the paint blowing off his car. The factory had "color coated" his car 4 times trying to fix paint defects. We had to scrape every piece of paint and primer to get it painted decently.
Same year a new Ford truck has an oil leak, sitting there idling with oil pouring out of the drain hole at the bottom of the bell housing. Pulled the transmission torque converter and flex plate. Found a hole drilled into the engine block into the main oil gallery, with a message, "you found it you son of a bitch". That was a week before a strike production.
The original Camaro typically had door gaps twice as wide at the top versus the bottom where the door met the fender,
GM's first small block Chevy V8 had notorious oil consumption issues, due to chrome moly rings, which is what they blamed it on. Solution, pour bon ami down the carb while it is running at 2k rpm.
The Japanese manufacturers moved into this market and the Arab oil embargo supercharged their appearance with fuel economy 2-3 times better that almost severy USA made car of that era. We got lazy and they kicked our collective asses. Before that it was Volkswagens. French cars would not outlast their Michelin tires.
The first Toyotas and Hondas I worked on were totals in the mid 1970s. They were simple and superbly built and got fabulous fuel mileage. Built a lot of the early RWD Corollas and some Hondas as well as a few 75-7 280Zs. After the Ford sabotage and the Vega disasters I stayed with Japanese made cars. My uncle lost two brothers in WW2, one in the Bataan death march so there was a lot of negative opinions of Japanese products due to those experiences.
The gap between quality is much smaller today, with outsourcing being one major cause and complexity as well as ruthless cost cutting contributing to the overall lower levels. Some of it might even be similar to the attitude that first started when the Japanese were just entering the US market. Simple arrogance and reputation riding.
One example is the degradation of the ability to repair modern cars, with one example being the time to replace a knock sensor, which in many cases requires more work than pulling the whole engine. This adds to the frustration when a customer gets an estimate, with %50 in parts and $1000 in labor for something that should be a 15 minute job. The either ignorance or arrogance of engineers never ceases to amaze me.
 
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