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Discussion Starter #1
I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will
improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.

The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
helpful to GM.

From the Detroit News:

Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the
knowledge and insights of their team members.

They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or
any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling
what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the
Japanese word for paper lantern.

Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the
car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.

"It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian
Walters, J.D. Power research director.

Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages, to
expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for
their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per
shift.

But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run
(the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life
isn't (perfect) like that."

For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly
lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in translation.

"We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor
in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day."

But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.

Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant
teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the
Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand."
 
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Discussion Starter #2
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

"Built_Well" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will
> improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.
>
> The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
> helpful to GM.
>
> From the Detroit News:
>
> Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the
> knowledge and insights of their team members.
>
> They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown,
> or
> any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by
> pulling
> what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the
> Japanese word for paper lantern.
>
> Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the
> car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.
>
> "It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian
> Walters, J.D. Power research director.
>
> Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages,
> to
> expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for
> their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per
> shift.
>
> But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run
> (the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life
> isn't (perfect) like that."
>
> For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly
> lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in
> translation.
>
> "We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor
> in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day."
>
> But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.
>
> Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant
> teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the
> Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand."
 
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Discussion Starter #3
"Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
> americans that buy GMs in some form..
>


Never say Never. Lots of proud Americans are buying Japanese. Especially
when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while their
American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Adam wrote:
>
> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
> americans that buy GMs in some form..



I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.

And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.

The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.

Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
"Built_Well" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will
> improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.
>
> The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
> helpful to GM.


People want quality, but not at any price. Every company seems to be quick
to brag about their quality control, ISO certifications, and so forth, but
not
every one makes it work.

Quality programs often lead to better REPRODUCIBILITY, but you can
continue to manufacture the same level of product. Most programs have
a statement calling for continuous improvement of quality too, but it
sometimes
gets lost in the haze.

People may not be willing to pay for quality, but neither are they happy to
accept shoddy goods.

GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:26:24 -0500, "Built_Well" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Adam wrote:


>> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
>> americans that buy GMs in some form..

>
> I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
>specifically GM management.
>
> And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
>awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
>12 to 1.
>
> The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
>huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
>
> Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
>Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
>attention to quality, not just give it lip service.


Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?

GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.

If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.

They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.

Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".

I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.

And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.

If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.

If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.

--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they
are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer
and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.
"Bruce L. Bergman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:26:24 -0500, "Built_Well" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Adam wrote:

>
> >> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
> >> americans that buy GMs in some form..

> >
> > I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
> >specifically GM management.
> >
> > And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
> >awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
> >12 to 1.
> >
> > The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
> >huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
> >
> > Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
> >Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
> >attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

>
> Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
> don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
> they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
> What madness is this?
>
> GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
> through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
> now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
> Phone' ringing.
>
> If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
> on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
> the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
> devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
>
> They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
> sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
>
> Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
> only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
> Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
> regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
> contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
> line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
> year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
> rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
> than "Job Bank".
>
> I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
> destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
> was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
> to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
> GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
> current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
> in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
> destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
>
> And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
> that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
> Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
> 10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
> other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
>
> If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
> buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
> they might be too little, too late.
>
> If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
> And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
> SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
>
> --<< Bruce >>--
> Posted from a.a.Toyota
>
> --
> Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
> Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
> 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
> Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
In article <[email protected]>, "Adam" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
> americans that buy GMs in some form..


True. It will be GM that puts GM out of business.

Merritt
 
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Discussion Starter #9
In alt.autos.toyota razz <[email protected]> wrote:

> Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your
> info they are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a
> mechanic at a jap dealer and they line up for repairs just as much
> as a domestic dealer.


Why would anyone take the word of a top-poster? Learn how to post
properly and people will give you more respect.

cordially, as always,

rm
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Razz,

I guess I'm another one of those idiots because I know for a fact that
Toyota's don't experience the major problems US cars do. It's the only
one I've not had trouble with. I have a friend who owns a transmission
business and I've asked him just how many Toyota transmissions he works
on. His answer---none, but plenty of Fords, GM's, etc. Facts are Facts
and the foreign cars are built better, but then again, I'm just one of
those american idiots, but a proud one !!!!



razz wrote:
> Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they
> are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer
> and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.
> "Bruce L. Bergman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>>On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:26:24 -0500, "Built_Well" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Adam wrote:

>>
>>>>Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
>>>>americans that buy GMs in some form..
>>>
>>> I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
>>>specifically GM management.
>>>
>>> And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
>>>awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
>>>12 to 1.
>>>
>>> The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
>>>huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
>>>
>>> Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
>>>Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
>>>attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

>>
>> Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
>>don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
>>they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
>>What madness is this?
>>
>> GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
>>through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
>>now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
>>Phone' ringing.
>>
>> If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
>>on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
>>the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
>>devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
>>
>> They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
>>sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
>>
>> Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
>>only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
>>Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
>>regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
>>contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
>>line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
>>year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
>>rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
>>than "Job Bank".
>>
>> I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
>>destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
>>was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
>>to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
>>GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
>>current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
>>in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
>>destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
>>
>> And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
>>that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
>>Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
>>10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
>>other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
>>
>> If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
>>buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
>>they might be too little, too late.
>>
>> If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
>>And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
>>SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
>>
>> --<< Bruce >>--
>>Posted from a.a.Toyota
>>
>>--
>>Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
>>Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
>>5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
>>Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

>
>
>
 
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Discussion Starter #12
"razz" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they
>are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer
>and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.



<snort>

--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Realto Margarino <[email protected]> wrote:

>In alt.autos.toyota razz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your
>> info they are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a
>> mechanic at a jap dealer and they line up for repairs just as much
>> as a domestic dealer.

>
>Why would anyone take the word of a top-poster? Learn how to post
>properly and people will give you more respect.
>
>cordially, as always,
>
>rm


Nah...even proper bottom posting won't help this chap much...
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
 
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Discussion Starter #14
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as
> much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements.



The data I have seen would indicate Toyota and Honda to have in
the order of a half percent problems, Volkswagen about twice that,
and some GM models in between. Doesn't seem like much, but they
also don't tell much about how these data were obtained and how
well the problems were resolved by the manufacturer. The dissatisfaction
with GM and Ford seems to go deeper than just this statistic.

But I'll agree that the car lineup has not endeared itself to many in the
USA, and the union agreements (a parameter related to poor management
practices as well) seem to drain the lifeforce from these companies.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
"Built_Well" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will
> improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.


Who cares? I haven't owned a GM for 25 years, and it was clear to me after I
dumped THAT piece of crap, that I would never own another one.

Heck, I even like my Chryslers better than those hunks of junk!

>
> The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
> helpful to GM.
>
> From the Detroit News:
>
> Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the
> knowledge and insights of their team members.
>
> They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown,
> or
> any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by
> pulling
> what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the
> Japanese word for paper lantern.
>
> Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the
> car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.
>
> "It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian
> Walters, J.D. Power research director.
>
> Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages,
> to
> expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for
> their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per
> shift.
>
> But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run
> (the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life
> isn't (perfect) like that."
>
> For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly
> lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in
> translation.
>
> "We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor
> in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day."
>
> But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.
>
> Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant
> teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the
> Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand."
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Hachiroku wrote:
>
> I haven't owned a GM for 25 years


The way things are going, I doubt I'll ever own a GM either.
Gimme Toyota, only the best!
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Both GM and Ford assembly workers have quality group meetings and have for
years. In addition they can stop the line as well by simply hitting the
stop button, located at each station. ;)


mike hunt


"Hachiroku" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:C%[email protected]
>
>> From the Detroit News:
>>
>> Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the
>> knowledge and insights of their team members.
>>
>> They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown,
>> or
>> any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by
>> pulling
>> what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the
>> Japanese word for paper lantern.
>>
>> Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the
>> car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.
>>
 
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Discussion Starter #18
I do not think it is as much a problem of real quality "deficit"
but more the rampant *perception* of bad quality from the buying
public, along with GM management, union contract, etc...

No, wait, my venture is going back to the dealership yet again
tomorrow for another problem with the ABS. It is GM bad quality
after all!
 
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Discussion Starter #19
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:55:49 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as
>> much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements.

>
>
>The data I have seen would indicate Toyota and Honda to have in
>the order of a half percent problems, Volkswagen about twice that,
>and some GM models in between. Doesn't seem like much, but they
>also don't tell much about how these data were obtained and how
>well the problems were resolved by the manufacturer. The dissatisfaction
>with GM and Ford seems to go deeper than just this statistic.
>
>But I'll agree that the car lineup has not endeared itself to many in the
>USA, and the union agreements (a parameter related to poor management
>practices as well) seem to drain the lifeforce from these companies.
>

At the moment GM & Ford's lineups suck. They are trying to make
something that isn't American. Economy cars are something that the
Japanese do extremely well (good for poor people). Europeans make
cars that are wonderfully built for narrow substandard roads (but if
you think American cars are unreliable as they age you should look at
BMW electronics and auto transmissions as they age......).

GM & Ford do fairly well with their cars produced in Canada (Gov't
health care lightens the retirement millstone around their neck).

Ford and GM for some reason continue avoiding building what Americans
want and love. Big, Powerful, Safe & Reliable cars. Instead we're
relegated to buying trucks to get what we want. Most amazing of all
the "never say die" Bankruptcy king Chrysler is leading the way. 300,
Magnum, Charger, etc. One would think that with Ford's success in the
new Mustang they could see what needs to be done but.....

Don't count the Big 3 out, just recall how Ford turned around in the
1990's.


PS When the Police and Cabbies start driving Toyota's and Suzuki's
I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial
quality".
 
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Discussion Starter #20
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:10:43 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:

> Both GM and Ford assembly workers have quality group meetings and have for
> years.


That's only so they can sit and talk about what they absolutely need to
do. Think bare minimum.
 
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