Toyota Nation Forum banner

21 - 31 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
692 Posts
I wish I had saved all the articles so that I could have shared them. It may take time to gather up the articles once again. You can be sure though what I'm reporting is extremely accurate.
Thanks for sharing your proof. Your detailed post is very convincing. I will follow your accurate advice.
 

·
straight cash homie
Joined
·
18,802 Posts
I still prefer toyota, nissan

You know how rental goes. Sometimes difficult to get what you want or you get charged extra. Since this is corporate rental I can't really change or dont want to pay more. :) However, my choice is still toyota, over any car. If no toyota then nissan, ford , hyundai, kia (tied).
I can understand Toyota, but Nissan? I'm renting a Versa right now. Bare bones nothing. While the newest Altima is acceptable, I've never really liked renting Nissans. I prefer the no-nonsense audio of a Kia or Hyundai. They're straight forward and easy to use when I connect my phone. Of course, Nissans are mostly CVTs, so that makes them craptastic to me. However, rental cars are rentals, they're all appliances LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
692 Posts
I can understand Toyota, but Nissan? I'm renting a Versa right now. Bare bones nothing. While the newest Altima is acceptable, I've never really liked renting Nissans. I prefer the no-nonsense audio of a Kia or Hyundai. They're straight forward and easy to use when I connect my phone. Of course, Nissans are mostly CVTs, so that makes them craptastic to me. However, rental cars are rentals, they're all appliances LOL
I guess the real test should be renting a high mileage car.:) In my early days of renting I was given a lot of high mileage rental. The fords, jeep were really scary but the nissan and kias, hyundai held up but I am sure doesn't really say much about the car. I rented a high mileage versa for 3 days and endure the whistling noise the whole time. It was really loud coming from the left window.

After 15k miles I feel fords, nissan , kias and hyundai feels loose. Toyotas still tight and feel solid.

As for the audio, I am not really into it but onlyt want to get free sirius chanel and sometimes I do get it free. :) Its nice to get a variety of chanel when I go through the desert. Weird to listen to fox, bloomberg, cnbc and etc in the middle of nowhere. What I noticed with some new vehicles which disappoints me is that the radio does not have a tuner that you can adjust incrementally. You have to use the scan, and seek button. If you are in the middle of nowhere its hard to get a channel other than christian, country, foreign or traffic. I don't carry music with me.

On my last rental (hyundai) the car performed well but as I said it was an 8k mile car. The analog guage layout was nice. Simple and easy to read like old school. I drove it 100mph most of the way for 6 hours and the car was steady. I am not a racer, I am just going with the flow of traffic. I was disappointed to get a hyundai but surprised how it handle. The audio was fine but did not have sirius and you can still change the channel incrementally
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Toyota ia still head of the pack. What may set them back is incorporation of CVT transmissions in more of their vehicles.These transmissions are a proven failure yet more manufacturers use them. After many improvements they still are unreliable and are known to fail at or before 60,000 miles. First developed by Nissan, Honda adopted this technology also. Previously, planetary gear transmissions in these cars were always extremely reliable. Always looking to cut costs, CVT transmissions were developed.
CVT is a step in automotive engineering for many reasons: weight, simplicity, fuel consumption, etc. Prius is a benchmark for many for CVT quality. Here's an interesting article on this:

Steer clear of American made vehicles. None have reached the Long term reliability of the cars I've mentioned earlier.
Why is that? Most Toyotas and Hondas on the road today are American made :geek: Did you mean the old Detroit 3, i.e. GM, Ford, Chrysler (FCA)?

Mazda in my opinion is tie with Toyota in reliabilty. Still manufactured in Japan, the Maxda 3, CX-3, CX-5 and CX-9 are very reliable.
You clearly never owned one. Mazda 3 we had was actually far worse than a Chevy Cavalier I once owned. Mazda consistently ranks far below average in durability studies whereas Toyota has always been among the best...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,485 Posts
New technology is new technology, people from the 80s probably thought the 90s weren't good. People from the 90s thought the 00s weren't good. People from the 00s thought the 10s weren't good. It's a waiting game on when and if they are reliable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
New technology is new technology, people from the 80s probably thought the 90s weren't good. People from the 90s thought the 00s weren't good. People from the 00s thought the 10s weren't good. It's a waiting game on when and if they are reliable.
+1 (y)

Cars like all other technology evolve. The overall trend for car reliability is positive, i.e. each gen is more reliable than the previous.

Reliability = Saving$ for all OEMs. The more reliable the car is, the less OEMs have to pay out in warranty costs. Warranty cost is a SEC reportable item for any OEMs selling in USA, so one can also see there how each OEM performs ;)

Per earlier discussions, it is in OEM's interest to have a reliable CVT. AT is a big ticket $$ repair item otherwise...
 

·
straight cash homie
Joined
·
18,802 Posts
+1 (y)

Cars like all other technology evolve. The overall trend for car reliability is positive, i.e. each gen is more reliable than the previous.

Reliability = Saving$ for all OEMs. The more reliable the car is, the less OEMs have to pay out in warranty costs. Warranty cost is a SEC reportable item for any OEMs selling in USA, so one can also see there how each OEM performs ;)

Per earlier discussions, it is in OEM's interest to have a reliable CVT. AT is a big ticket $$ repair item otherwise...
True, but also, if a lot of today's technologies in vehicles fail, they are more complex to fix, and likely, the way auto repair is these days, is just to replace rather than repair.

An extended warranty for a Toyota nowadays sounds more reasonable especially for pricier models equipped with all the TSS and safety stuff, especially if you really want to keep a car that long.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,172 Posts
Toyota ia still head of the pack. What may set them back is incorporation of CVT transmissions in more of their vehicles.These transmissions are a proven failure yet more manufacturers use them. After many improvements they still are unreliable and are known to fail at or before 60,000 miles.First developed by Nissan, Honda adopted this technology also. Previously, planetary gear transmissions in these cars were always extremely reliable. Always looking to cut costs, CVT transmissions were developed.
You’ll definitely see reports of failures at or before 60K regarding some bad executions (Nissan...). You definitely won’t find any source/study/statistic sustaining the affirmation that they all fail at or before 60K because that’s simply not the case. And millions have been on the road since more than 60 years (no, Nissan wasn’t the first neither worldwide nor in NA).

It’s like saying that regular automatic transmissions are garbage because there once was the infamous Axo unit in Taurus/Sable. In the same way, “extremely reliable” wouldn’t apply to Honda’s problems with regular automatics in yesteryear Civic and current Odyssey.

There is indeed a cost advantage for manufacturer… that would be traded for a massive shortfall in warranty replacement, according to the “60K” theory. But there are also some engineering advantages. One may appreciate them or not but that’s a preference issue, not a reliability issue.

Steer clear of American made vehicles. None have reached the Long term reliability of the cars I've mentioned earlier. Mazda in my opinion is tie with Toyota in reliabilty. Still manufactured in Japan
I think this perception has more to do with circumstances than some ethnic characteristics… In the 60’s and 70’s, Japanese manufacturers came here with meticulously designed and executed cars while American manufacturers were struggling to adapt to a change in market they even denied was coming at first. The Japanese had then more and more resources to refined offering, while Americans had less and less while having to reinvent themselves. Think Vega vs Corolla…

That doesn’t mean that products were good just because of a Japanese label. Smaller Mazda, for instance, had less resources and, at one point, could only afford lower quality steel… and got a dreadful “rust bucket” reputation in Canada. They progressed, so did the Americans. Consider Vega vs Cruze…

Also consider this: first units of both last gen Camry and Corolla were imported from Japan. Both had recalls… At the same time, Cambridge (Canada) has one of the best reputations among Toyota’s plants. And Buick, yes, Buick is among the best in reliability. Statistics say so and also the fact, for me, that around here, beside various Toyota, Buick is a a favorite choice among taxi drivers.

Just saying that things should be considered upon merit, not country name.
 

·
Not as Happy a Toyota Camry Owner as I'd Planned t
Joined
·
7 Posts
Fascinating topic.

Simple answer -- if Toyota is pressured to make more profit, its quality will fall. It might be reaching that point.

Longer -- WAY longer answer:

For a long time now, major automotives have been assemblers of components made by outside vendors. And many of those components were also engineered by the outside vendor. As every conscientious repair shop has found, depending on the quality of supplied parts is increasingly difficult.

If you're a maker with a desire for quality, maintaining assembly quality will depend on good relationships with suppliers, unflagging incoming goods quality control, and trained assemblers who are entitled to raise an alarm if something is wrong with a part or a design.

But the economics are tough for this.

Good relationships sometimes means sacrificing a bit of profit, as when you pay more for a given component because that component's supplier has put more into it -- more in materials, more in quality control, more in logistics Why logistics? Efficient -- that is, profitable -- assembly requires close delivery timing. Parts lying around create inventory and inventory costs a great deal... which is why most manufacturers have gone to just-in-time assembly.

Unflagging incoming quality control requires very highly trained personnel whose attention never wanders when outside vendor production runs are presented for their okay. At the same time, QC is a low-esteem position, hard to recruit, hard to keep... there are just going to be times when the right people aren't on the job.

Trained assembly personnel... Anecdote: a Toyota production specialist was talking about how much training Toyota provides line personnel -- classes, training sessions, self-guided training programs, and on and on. A GM counterpart asked, "What happens when you train to this level. Don't you get an employee that others want to hire away? What happens if you train people and they leave?"

The Toyota specialist simply said, "What happens when you don't train people, and they stay?"

So, all by itself, as a manufacturer hankering after quality similar to Toyota's historic level, you pay more for parts and you pay more for people.

But in the automotive world, reality raises a key issue. The more that you have to turn max profits, the more that cost pressures will erode quality.

At one point, you could say that the Toyota Production System (TPS), which has been evolving since the early 1950s, was absolutely alone. Volvo came very close in the 70s with its team assembly approach, but that's when Volvos suddenly became luxury cars, rather than latter-day Scandinavian Model Ts -- the cost of team assembly was (compared to Ford or GM) huge.

Today, people at other marques have seen the positive result of maybe-lower-profit but steadily-increasing demand/sales as the result of applying the TPS.

GM has tried for several decades to implement bits and pieces of it. Ford took a slightly different tack with its Design for Manufacturing -- designing parts such that (a) they cannot be mis-assembled and (b) that closely fit the logic of assembly-line production -- with a goal of never injecting extra effort or time due to design problems. GM has had to educate and cajole its line people, where Ford's approach required none of that -- and made the assembler's jobs easier, which they mostly liked.

Chrysler... well, as a writer about manufacturing, I was witness to Chrysler's ham-handed approach to its suppliers in the 1980s and 90s. Chrysler made it impossible to supply quality parts at the prices Chrysler would pay. And they didn't care if one of their low-ball vendors went bankrupt or quit. Fiat is now left with the lowest possible component quality from suppliers too dim to realize it's hopeless.

Anyway, other makers are catching up, inch by inch, or in the case of Korea, deliberately building an automotive industry right from the start at a level for successful world competition.

Unfortunately, world competition is reaching unprecedented levels. Will people pay more for better Toyota quality? Or will Toyota bow to economic pressure and become aggressive cost-cutters, with vehicles with more accountancy and less engineering?
Pretty clear they've already made that decision... the $$ wins and the consumer loses as in the sticky disintegrating dashboards so many of us are stuck with because we were two months out of the 10 year warranty even though the car year was within it but the production date was outside of the 10 years! That will cost them future customers not only those of us who won't buy again but also our friends who hear the stories of how they screwed their customers..... very foolish of them given they caused the problem in the first place!! JERKS!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
...sticky disintegrating dashboards so many of us are stuck with because we were two months out of the 10 year warranty.... very foolish of them given they caused the problem in the first place!! JERKS!
Sticky dash sux, but every OEM is susceptible to it. Just punch in google search "melting dashboard <OEM>" and you'll find the same issues plague all OEMs, from Toyota, to Mazda, Nissan, Ford F-series, GM large SUV, and so on. So yeah, T may be same as others for that issue alone, but at some point they may step in and help you with the repair (fingers crossed for you)...

On the other hand, since I see that you have a Camry and, if yours is a 4-cyl, I challenge you to name one other OEM who replaced engines for free which are waaaay outside warranty for oil burning. Our 170K '07 Camry got one for free...

Honestly, for a 10+ year old car, replacing the dash for $300ish (used dash is ~$150) vs a free new engine, is a really good deal to me. Vs any other 10-yo midsize sedan used car, your Camry will still be worth a few $Ks more ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
Sticky dash sux, but every OEM is susceptible to it. Just punch in google search "melting dashboard <OEM>" and you'll find the same issues plague all OEMs, from Toyota, to Mazda, Nissan, Ford F-series, GM large SUV, and so on. So yeah, T may be same as others for that issue alone, but at some point they may step in and help you with the repair (fingers crossed for you)...

On the other hand, since I see that you have a Camry and, if yours is a 4-cyl, I challenge you to name one other OEM who replaced engines for free which are waaaay outside warranty for oil burning. Our 170K '07 Camry got one for free...

Honestly, for a 10+ year old car, replacing the dash for $300ish (used dash is ~$150) vs a free new engine, is a really good deal to me. Vs any other 10-yo midsize sedan used car, your Camry will still be worth a few $Ks more ;)
Completely agree with this, a lot can happen to a dashboard in 9-10 years.

Relevant story: My last car was a 2010 Accord. Honda extended the K24 engine warranty to 125K miles due to oil burning issues (TSB 12-087). I had my engine rebuilt under that warranty at around 8 years, 120K miles. A year later, I was back to using almost 1qt of oil every 1000 miles and out of warranty by then. Honda told me it was normal. I sold the Accord and bought my Camry. My point is that all manufacturers suck sometimes.
 
21 - 31 of 31 Posts
Top