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Toyota Fanboy
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I am sorry to say that Toyota is on it's way down the sh*tter like domestics. They care only about high revenues, lots of sales and making it to the no. 1 automotive company. They are getting just as greedy as GM or Ford were a few years ago when they churned out volume selling vehicles to increase profits. The logical consequence is well known today.:rolleyes:

Toyota is no longer interested in creating cars for a broad audience and vehicles that revolutionize automotive engineering and define eras. Right from the time when FJ cruiser was the first ever to climb mount Fuji in the 50s to the revolutionary sports car called Supra Twin Turbo Mark 4 that even to this day is considered the benchmark for sports cars, Toyota showed the world how cars are built in every genre. It is a far stretch from today when Toyota released the performance oriented Lexus IS350 without a stick shift by claiming "the automatic is more efficient than manual and less than 10% of the market buys stick shift cars so there is no point in making a stick shift car without demand". It is one of the most ignorant and heartbreaking things I ever heard as Toyota is actively trying to kill manual transmission true performance cars and forcing the small true enthusiast buyers who would settle for nothing other than a manual transmission car.


Now Toyota is on it's way to becoming one of the most blandest and boring automotive company that sells a lot of cars.
 

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I just want to know. Are you being sarcastic by letting out such statements as we have seen haters do for years? The smilie gives me hope that you aren't, but something tells me you really believe all that stuff you just wrote!
 

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Gen 4 XLE v6
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Kudos to Toyota. We can sit behind the shield of our computers and dictate corporate tactics to them. But the very fact that they are where they are is because something went well and contininues to do so. Rather than somber on critical viewpoint on what Toyota isn't doing well, let me :clap: for the feat achieved.
 

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I don't know if you are referring to me or the original poster? But, yeah what I wrote is with real seriousness. I own a 2005 2ZZ GE XRS and I absolutely love it to death and have grown up with Toyotas all my life. So it is impossible to call me a hater of Toyota. However, I am a realistic person living in the real person and that is what reality is.

Lasse D said:
I just want to know. Are you being sarcastic by letting out such statements as we have seen haters do for years? The smilie gives me hope that you aren't, but something tells me you really believe all that stuff you just wrote!
 

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^Uhh... they have an IS250 manual. Its only a matter of time before their release the stick version of the 350.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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Discussion Starter #7
I completely disagree with you, silver04rollas. If Toyota's vehicles were so bland and so boring, they would not be selling.
Toyota killed vehicles like the Supra, MR2 and Celica because they werent strong sellers. From a business standpoint, it doesnt make sense to continue to make a vehicle that is a weak seller.
You clearly dont agree with how Toyota's leadership is running the company, but they seem to know what they are doing based upon Toyota's sales numbers and overall financial health.
 

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CRESSIDA!!!
1984 Toyota Cressida
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Excitement is coming back to the Toyota brand indirectly for now. '07 Camry is signifcantly sporiter, '05 Avalon, FJ Cruiser is exciting. The days of the 1MZ powered sedans are over.
 

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That is exactly my point. Toyota is caring less and less about cars that are not appealing to of 90% of the customers do not want them. That is because 90% of customers look for cars that are easy to drive (i.e automatics), comfortable and cars with more utilitarian purpose. Obviously, keeping their fiduciary goals in mind they are willing to kill any car that is a low volume seller and does not appeal to the mass audience since it hurts their overall profits and sales.

Obviously, to Honda, Nissan it does make sense to keep pushing the envelope of performance oriented cars in every segment and low volume seller manual transmission for every model they make. That is not the case with Toyota.

If anyone follows through my posts, he would immediately identify me as a Toyota fanboy who always defends Toyotas. That is true. However, I like to live in the real world.

Captain_Toyota said:
I completely disagree with you, silver04rollas. If Toyota's vehicles were so bland and so boring, they would not be selling.
Toyota killed vehicles like the Supra, MR2 and Celica because they werent strong sellers. From a business standpoint, it doesnt make sense to continue to make a vehicle that is a weak seller.
You clearly dont agree with how Toyota's leadership is running the company, but they seem to know what they are doing based upon Toyota's sales numbers and overall financial health.
 

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^Well how can you blame Toyota for that? If you ran a business, you wouldn't try and sell merchandise that consumers don't want. You'd do the same thing. But I don't know why you say that they focus less and less on performance when each new model comes out with more and more horses and torque. The '07 v6 Camry gets a nice jump to 250hp. The Avalon puts out 268hp. Either car would destroy a stock Celica just on sheer power and torque.

Then look at it this way: how many drivers are there that are performance oriented? Not very many. Most of the people that you see on the road don't really know how much horsepower or how much torque their car has, or how their car works, and many of those people have never even seen what's under their hood. They drive a car to get from point A to point B. Nothing more. The fact that Honda and Nissan are still so "performance oriented" is possibly a good cause for why Toyota is #1, and they're not.
 

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Toyota Fanboy
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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
:werd:
People buy Toyotas for fuel economy and dependability. You cant keep making vehicles that are poor sellers just because a small percentage of your customers want them. Its not good business sense.
If you want a fast Toyota, go buy a Lexus.
 

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I am probably not getting my point across correctly or something. My reason was to just vent my frustration with what Toyota is doing. Maybe, Toyota will prove me wrong (I hope it will) and come out with more flagship versions for every model that are geared towards the enthusiast crowd. Not everyone has to agree with what I am saying and we can sure leave it at that. Then again, I have always been known as the Toyota fanboy, but this is just reality for you. I am just telling that millions of people out there and critics are saying about Toyota and they are not wrong.

Let me try once again:

Wow! A quick car in straight line always means more performance, right??? A car with sheer horsepower that drives and handles like a boat does not mean performance. As far as I know, the new RAV4 is there with Avalon and the new Camry as well. Yeah they are quick out of the box in a straight line acceleration, but they will never be cars that would be taken to the race track. Sure, Avalon and the next Camry are getting a lot of horsepower, but performance enthusiast will never take those cars since they simply are not cars for enthusiasts. These cars are meant for the major portion of the market that wants - a safe, comfortable, reliable and good quality transportation that gets you from point A to B. Nothing more.

An Acura TL is as fast as a Honda S2000 in a straight line race, but tell me which one will a performance enthusiast buy and take to the tracks??? S2000 sells in small numbers yet Honda continues to offer it every year regardless of what the 90% of the market does not want a car like that.

As for the business perspective, Honda and Nissan care somehow continue to succeed in their business growth while catering to every segment by offering performance oriented cars with manual transmission. Then again, while growing as fast.

Bottom line is, being no. 1 does not automatically imply "better". It only means more money for the company, more stature and more recognition. GM is no. 1 right now, but where do they stand in the automotive industry? If Toyota was not so greedy and driven by getting up to no.1, they would continue to succeed, flourish while retain the revolutionary engineering and catering to every segment including that very small percentage of buyers who look for cars that are performance oriented with excitement, adrenaline rush and pure fun (yes, including a manual transmission).


white3ch0c0late said:
^Well how can you blame Toyota for that? If you ran a business, you wouldn't try and sell merchandise that consumers don't want. You'd do the same thing. But I don't know why you say that they focus less and less on performance when each new model comes out with more and more horses and torque. The '07 v6 Camry gets a nice jump to 250hp. The Avalon puts out 268hp. Either car would destroy a stock Celica just on sheer power and torque.

Then look at it this way: how many drivers are there that are performance oriented? Not very many. Most of the people that you see on the road don't really know how much horsepower or how much torque their car has, or how their car works, and many of those people have never even seen what's under their hood. They drive a car to get from point A to point B. Nothing more. The fact that Honda and Nissan are still so "performance oriented" is possibly a good cause for why Toyota is #1, and they're not.
 

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I guess that's why European automakers like BMW, Mercedes, and Ferrari are offering manuals less and less right?

Whether you like it or not, for performance driving, SMG seems to be the future.

Oh, and I've never seen any "enthusiasts" complain about the automatics seen in AMG cars, have you?

The new Rav 4, by none other than Car and Driver, was reviewed and deemed to be "better handling than most Toyota cars", and mind you this is an SUV.

The new Avalon outhandles most of it's fullsize competitors, and keep in mind the Avalon is supposed to be the most sedated car in Toyota's lineup.

The Toyota Yaris is fun to drive, AND it offers a manual too.

And Toyota is coming back with more sporty models. and more performance in their future cars.
 

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^ :werd:
 

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For one, Toyota does not have a sequential manual transmission (no the tiptronic is not SMG. It is an conventional automatic transmission with ability for the driver to control shifts). The only SMG Toyota had was on the MR-S, which had way too many flaws as it tend to lose it's responsiveness once used over an extended period of time and it was substantially slower than the 5 speed manual version of the MR-S.

Secondly, in Europe most of the cars including BMW, Mercedes, Audi offer a 6 speed manual with their sequential manual transmissions i.e. S4, M3 etc. Guess what?? despite BMW's claims that SMG shifts faster than a human can possibly shift in a real manual transmission was not enough to prove that on a race track, a real manual transmission M3 still outperforms the SMG M3. Even in a straight line, E46 M3 6 speed is quicker than the SMG because of lighter weight and better control at launch off the line from high rpms.


vasia said:
I guess that's why European automakers like BMW, Mercedes, and Ferrari are offering manuals less and less right?

Whether you like it or not, for performance driving, SMG seems to be the future.

Oh, and I've never seen any "enthusiasts" complain about the automatics seen in AMG cars, have you?

The new Rav 4, by none other than Car and Driver, was reviewed and deemed to be "better handling than most Toyota cars", and mind you this is an SUV.

The new Avalon outhandles most of it's fullsize competitors, and keep in mind the Avalon is supposed to be the most sedated car in Toyota's lineup.

The Toyota Yaris is fun to drive, AND it offers a manual too.

And Toyota is coming back with more sporty models. and more performance in their future cars.
 

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^ Um... Toyota offers an SMG for the Scion tC, unless I'm mistaken..
 

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white3ch0c0late said:
^ Um... Toyota offers an SMG for the Scion tC, unless I'm mistaken..

silver04rollas said:
For one, Toyota does not have a sequential manual transmission (no the tiptronic is not SMG. It is an conventional automatic transmission with ability for the driver to control shifts).
Toyota only had SMG on the MR-S, which then again had serious flaws.

As for Scion TC, the manual and auto transmissions are taken straight out of the Camry and dropped into the TC. What you are referring to is the tiptronic auto that is offered on most of the Toyotas and Lexii.

Tiptronic (A.K.A sequential automatic, steptronic, sportshift):

Convetional automatic transmission with lockup torque converter (no clutch) and an ECU monitored manually shifting option.


Sequential Manual Transmission:

A real manual transmission without a lockup torque converter and completely controlled by the driver. It has clutches that are controlled by the ECU everytime the user shifts up.
 

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I think you are correct with one point silver. The Toyota brand in US could use a performance halo car like the MR2 and Celica (Which we still get here in Europe). The tC is based on the Avensis platform which is shared with the Celica, and I thought Scion would be enough to replace the MR2 and Celica, but there really is an empty spot left after the MR2.

Halo cars are not made to bring in huge profit margins, so the argument with profitability doesn't really hold.
If Scion got a light-weight spyder to compete with the MX-5, that should make the brand complete.

Lexus has the more exclusive performance cars like the IS which should get a CC-version version in the near future and there might be this unnamed Über performance car on its way as well.

Toyota is a company, and like every other it is in business to make money. To make lots of sales and becomming the #1 auto maker as you said in your first post is not a goal - it is simply not a healthy long term strategy. The motto is "continuous improvement". If anyone at Toyota leans back and feals nothing can touch them, then Toyota has failed.
The rapid expansion hurts Toyota. This is why a new training center is made to learn workers mistake reducing techniques. Don't think the management isn't aware of any of these problems.
 

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silver04rollas said:
For one, Toyota does not have a sequential manual transmission (no the tiptronic is not SMG. It is an conventional automatic transmission with ability for the driver to control shifts). The only SMG Toyota had was on the MR-S, which had way too many flaws as it tend to lose it's responsiveness once used over an extended period of time and it was substantially slower than the 5 speed manual version of the MR-S.

Secondly, in Europe most of the cars including BMW, Mercedes, Audi offer a 6 speed manual with their sequential manual transmissions i.e. S4, M3 etc. Guess what?? despite BMW's claims that SMG shifts faster than a human can possibly shift in a real manual transmission was not enough to prove that on a race track, a real manual transmission M3 still outperforms the SMG M3. Even in a straight line, E46 M3 6 speed is quicker than the SMG because of lighter weight and better control at launch off the line from high rpms.
Toyota uses an SMG tranny in F1. IF Toyota REALLY wanted to, they could have developed SMG for production cars. The reason they didn't is because they don't see a market for it. Toyota is not a niche maker for the most part.

Also, Toyota offers manuals on many of their models in Europe and Japan. What's your point? Toyota caters individually to each market. Toyota offers huge factory support in terms of mods and performance upgrades for their European and JDM models.

In North America, manuals are not popular, except only in specific niche vehicles. Toyota offers manuals in some models, but not in all, because the market does not warrant it. In Europe and Japan, manuals are more popular, so Toyota offers more of them.
 
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