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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
preytell, how might one get cat codes when the car has a 3 week old cat and three brand new o2 sensors?

RIPOFF

these things are made to make money after the sale. the computer is programmed to EXTORT money from the unsuspecting owners by insisting on a $1,417.62 part instead of a generic converter, which i bought installed for $125... and when i bought it, there was nothing wrong with the one i had!

RIPOFF

EXTORTION

ither i can shell out or i can be miserable, because i know my engine is not running right... and maybe (depending on where i live) big brother will step in and FORCE me to pay, or fail the smog test...

TOYOTA SUCKS

there will never, ever be another toyota. i'll jury-rig this one. yes, i found out how to do it for $30 or $40, depending on which way i go. but how long will it be before the next EXTORTION RIPOFF surfaces?

like maybe the "integration relay" will start smoking (why did that not blow a fuse? you already know - made to make money, after the sale!) or whatever...

i hate this piece of schmidt. i can't trust it - can't rely on it. i want out, soooo bad. in fact i am willing to give away all the work i did this summer (swapping engines, etc.) but i want the price of the parts i bought.

if abybody is that foolish, after reading this warning, pm me and you will soon have yourself an avalon that's in new condition, mechanically, with a 35-50,000 mile jdm motor/trans in it.
 

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Hi Dige

mmm well you swapped motors. The car was use to having your other orginal motor. So my thoughts are the main pc box/ecm is bad? I know
more money.

It could be a cosmic thing. I just ordered 2 4622 Denso Oxygen sensors.
No codes tellin me to I just feel at 196,000 that I should there is a
funny thing happening with me and my car...can't explain it.

Have you cleaned out the egr valve screen? maybe the PCV?
Seafoam has a spray can that you can take out the pcv and spray
inside the throttle bottle pcv etc..

I too spent this last summer working on my avalon when I should have been working on my 1970 Monte carlo...next summer 4 sure...

it has to be something simple..just take a break:thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
hey skully - how u b?

nope. when you disconnect the battery and hit the brake for one minute the ecu (computer) boots from ROM and forgets everything it "knew." so it forgot the old engine... and "learned" about the next one.

and hey - aren't those east coast people nice? they live up to their reputation, time after time... art, buddy, BUY SOMETHING, or get off the lot!

there's no possibility of anything else but what i said. i even had the flange between the exhaust pipes cut out and replaced with solid pipe, so there is no air leak. the computer will not accept a brand new cat that had a big 2 on it - meaning it's for use with obd2 cars. i'll guarantee you it would shut up if i gave then $1,500 !!

i'll give them the bird, instead.

i'll just fix it so the rear sensor senses nothing - lol. but i'm like, one in a zillion, that way. what about the rest? ripped off and extorted, just like i said. there's no excuse for it. it thievery, plain and simple.

there will never, ever be another toyota here. i've seen the writing, beneath the speedometer...
 

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Maybe it's the doctor and not the patient.
In medicine, generics are required to be equal to brand name. Not so in auto parts. Not too much $500+ per oz. palladium can wind up in a cat that retails for a buck and a quarter installed. People, beware of garbage parts like this, where the price is too good to be true. Like buying the 99 cent plugs for these cars. Yeah, they'll screw into the holes and probably fire, but will they really work?:thumbsdow
 

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and hey - aren't those east coast people nice? they live up to their reputation, time after time... art, buddy, BUY SOMETHING, or get off the lot!
Seriously, how do you expect people to respond to your "TOYOTA SUCKS" rants? You buy cheap parts, take short cuts and perform convoluted jerry-rigs. Then, you disparage a car that is arguably one of the most reliable ever built.
 

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In medicine, generics are required to be equal to brand name. Not so in auto parts. Not too much $500+ per oz. palladium can wind up in a cat that retails for a buck and a quarter installed. People, beware of garbage parts like this, where the price is too good to be true. Like buying the 99 cent plugs for these cars. Yeah, they'll screw into the holes and probably fire, but will they really work?:thumbsdow
Are you telling me that a TYC starter for $87.79 isn't a good deal? I mean, why would I pay several times more for a Denso rebuilt? Or, why would I pay $15 to replace the contacts/plunger on my original Denso starter when I can get a brand new one for $87.79? I bet a $87.79 starter would work great on every car except a stinkin' Toyota.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
yeah yeah... then just how is it that these cats work on every other car, in which they're installed? i have done business with the shop that installed it for more than ten years. if YOU had a shop would you install parts that came back, bringing angry customers with them?

you may have a point about the starter - MAY have, as i have no experience with that issue. i merely found a good price and offered it to the OP... and for that i was...

defend your master all you want. display your chauvinism, for all to see. but this time i have direct experience with the issue. and again i flatly, and without reservation, accuse toyota of EXTORTION, by means of programming their ecu so that it will not accept parts that work fine and demands parts that are a SCREAMING RIPOFF.

and if you don't like that you can kiss my ...

while you're at it, check out some of the LAWS regarding automotive pollution equipment/parts. after you do you will realize that manufacturing a cat that didn't work would not be a good idea... if for no other reason than you'd be required BY LAW to replace any/all defects, for seven years! (i think)

the plain fact is that new ways have been found, since 1977. cats contain 1/20 troy ounce (around 1.5 grams) of palladium. in '77 i think they would have had platinum. anyhow, $533 (today's cost of palladium) /28 (number of grams in an ounce) = $19.04 x 1.5... let's say $30, at most, as i'm sure those that buy quantity get better rates than the spot market... which leaves plenty of markup for a sale at $100. some people talk out their a**es and some state facts, and numbers...

all of which prove my accusation, concerning the price of the toyota part, as well. OBVIOUSLY, the new cat is doing it's job and an exhaust sniffer, no doubt, would prove that. the toyota computer is rigged to measure something unique about the original cat - NOT the performance of the cat on the car - and that's a RIPOFF, plain and simple. add the pressure applied by the pollution laws, which removes free will to buy/not buy, and you have EXTORTION, again, plain and simple.

TOYOTA IS A RIPOFF AND PRACTICES EXTORTION.
 

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Are you telling me that a TYC starter for $87.79 isn't a good deal? I mean, why would I pay several times more for a Denso rebuilt? Or, why would I pay $15 to replace the contacts/plunger on my original Denso starter when I can get a brand new one for $87.79? I bet a $87.79 starter would work great on every car except a stinkin' Toyota.
It may or may not be a good deal. It's mathematically/economically possible for a manufacturer, using inexpensive labor available in other parts of the world, and more efficient distribution methods, to make a quality product that uses relatively inexpensive materials like steel & copper, and have it retail for a fraction of competitors'. (BTW, I just checked, and the Denso reman can be had for $158, so it's not even double, let alone several.) Doing your own disassembly & repair of a starter or alternator can deliver the most bang for the buck if out-of-pocket today is the overriding concern.

When you start looking at parts that incorporate precious metals that sell for hundreds to over a thousand $ per ounce in the worldwide commodities market, even the cheapest labor can't overcome the basic cost of materials. To be able to sell for a quarter the price of other manufacturers (for Cats, I'm not talking OE but Bosal, Eastern, Walker), precious metals must be used sparingly. There is no alternative. Cats, Oxy sensors, plugs, etc. that use platinum, palladium, iridium or other precious metals have to cost if they have the guts. That gold ring on eBay for $99.99 isn't the same as the gold ring at the big mall jeweler for $2000. But the small local retailer could be selling the same or better quality as the big name for $1200. One lower price was too good to be true, the other at least realistically possible.
 

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If the car is testing just fine with a sniffer, how would it know the part is aftermarket? You make it sound like you had to connect a 12 pin connector to the cat itself so the car "knows" it's Toyota(*sarcasm*clearly the case here). Either:
A: a sensor isn't workin right
B: the circuitry isn't solid
C: the ECU's tolerances in emissions are programmed for the old 3.0, and the 3.3 is not the same
D: The cat is NOT performing up to the specs defined in the ECU

You state other brands of cars use this cat just fine, and maybe they just have larger tolerance on the downstream sensor readings.
I'm running an aftermarket exhaust system on my Avy that was put on due to a bad flex pipe, and my aftermarket cat is workin great.

Also, every car brand has it's flaws, and EVERY car manufacturer over-inflates their parts prices(depending on part).
 

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yeah yeah... then just how is it that these cats work on every other car, in which they're installed? i have done business with the shop that installed it for more than ten years. if YOU had a shop would you install parts that came back, bringing angry customers with them?

you may have a point about the starter - MAY have, as i have no experience with that issue. i merely found a good price and offered it to the OP... and for that i was...

defend your master all you want. display your chauvinism, for all to see. but this time i have direct experience with the issue. and again i flatly, and without reservation, accuse toyota of EXTORTION, by means of programming their ecu so that it will not accept parts that work fine and demands parts that are a SCREAMING RIPOFF.

and if you don't like that you can kiss my ...

while you're at it, check out some of the LAWS regarding automotive pollution equipment/parts. after you do you will realize that manufacturing a cat that didn't work would not be a good idea... if for no other reason than you'd be required BY LAW to replace any/all defects, for seven years! (i think)

the plain fact is that new ways have been found, since 1977. cats contain 1/20 troy ounce (around 1.5 grams) of palladium. in '77 i think they would have had platinum. anyhow, $533 (today's cost of palladium) /28 (number of grams in an ounce) = $19.04 x 1.5... let's say $30, at most, as i'm sure those that buy quantity get better rates than the spot market... which leaves plenty of markup for a sale at $100. some people talk out their a**es and some state facts, and numbers...

all of which prove my accusation, concerning the price of the toyota part, as well. OBVIOUSLY, the new cat is doing it's job and an exhaust sniffer, no doubt, would prove that. the toyota computer is rigged to measure something unique about the original cat - NOT the performance of the cat on the car - and that's a RIPOFF, plain and simple. add the pressure applied by the pollution laws, which removes free will to buy/not buy, and you have EXTORTION, again, plain and simple.

TOYOTA IS A RIPOFF AND PRACTICES EXTORTION.
Have you used your secret fuel enhancer since installing your new sensors and cat?

"today i put my own secret fuel enhancer in it for the first time. it REALLY took off! i've seen this stuff cause a 20% increase in mileage on five cars, now. one upon a time i thought i would become rich by selling it. nobody believes and nobody will even try it - citing perceived risk to their fuel systems."
 

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If the car is testing just fine with a sniffer, how would it know the part is aftermarket? You make it sound like you had to connect a 12 pin connector to the cat itself so the car "knows" it's Toyota(*sarcasm*clearly the case here). Either:
A: a sensor isn't workin right
B: the circuitry isn't solid
C: the ECU's tolerances in emissions are programmed for the old 3.0, and the 3.3 is not the same
D: The cat is NOT performing up to the specs defined in the ECU

You state other brands of cars use this cat just fine, and maybe they just have larger tolerance on the downstream sensor readings.
I'm running an aftermarket exhaust system on my Avy that was put on due to a bad flex pipe, and my aftermarket cat is workin great.

Also, every car brand has it's flaws, and EVERY car manufacturer over-inflates their parts prices(depending on part).
My son's 97 Camry 4 cyl has been running flawlessly with a Walker cat for 2 years. My daughter's 99 Avy has had no problem with the Eastern cat installed 16 months ago. Current price of that Y-pipe/Cat unit is $360. Cat can alone is 1/4 of that.
 

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wow, i miss alot when i dont come by lol. DM, Have you hooked a scanner to your car and SEE the O2 voltages? is the cat really not preforming ??
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
sonic - the cat has "not been performing" since i had the car. that's 3 o2 sensors and a new cat ago.

wolf - what does this mean? "C: the ECU's tolerances in emissions are programmed for the old 3.0, and the 3.3 is not the same" i have the 3.0 engine. at least i think i do - lol - in a 97. 1mz is what i have.

the starter? WELL, my initial reaction is that any new company is looking to make a name for itself - a GOOD name, therefore it's initial products will need to be exceptional. in fact there is a sort of a mentality in the business world that indicates giving contracts to young, hungry companies...

atrbuc - yes, i use my fuel enhancer. that's why today's first tank with no a/c use yielded 31.5 MPG. but the problem with the cel was there, well before i began using the enhancer, which has caused no such problems before and, i believe, in incapable of doing so. i use 2.5 fl. oz. of enhancer per 10 gallons of fuel...

i don't use cheap parts. i use the same parts everyone else uses - the parts that are mass-marketed in this country.

i've searched these forums and i'm not the first, or the only person to have this problem. but toyota IS the only car (of which i am aware) that has this problem. according to pete they have used the exact same cat on everything with a obd2, and never had a comeback... even mercedes and bmw.

the thing did change. that's the key. if the results were the same - i.e. run for less than two days and pop a code - then i would be looking at the wiring for an intermittent short/open. BUT IT'S NOT. the interval went from 2 days to three weeks. the new cat did improve things. therefore the cat is the deal - not the wiring, or the computer... logic works well, when applied to machines.

when i got the car it had a brand new NAPA front pipe, complete with flex pipe and cat. the error was generated every two - three days, at the longest. the thing wasn't even rusty! so i looked to the 02 sensors. just how much of my [email protected]#$%^&*() !! money has this damn thing stolen? WASTED?

i am not amused. not at all. in fact, i'm mad as he77.
 

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wolf - what does this mean? "C: the ECU's tolerances in emissions are programmed for the old 3.0, and the 3.3 is not the same" i have the 3.0 engine. at least i think i do - lol - in a 97. 1mz is what i have.
My mistake, read a post a while ago about 3mz swaps and assumed it was you when you mentioned the "new" engine. Anyways, my other points still stand, how the hell can it know if the cat is not oem?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
well it can test for something unique to the oem - something the oem does, that others cats do not do. what, specifically? the batteries in my crystal ball are dead...

say, for example, some sort of performance curve. another cat has a different curve, but still does the job. some sort of minimum - the toyota part displays a minimum (?) of x, and other cats go below x...

it's much more than possible. the impossible has the nasty habit of BECOMING possible, in the nanosecond it is observed .)
 

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My mistake, read a post a while ago about 3mz swaps and assumed it was you when you mentioned the "new" engine. Anyways, my other points still stand, how the hell can it know if the cat is not oem?
I think the allegation may boil down to a charge that Toyota specs parts that provide a wider margin of compliance with emissions standards. The law may say (purely made up numbers) 30 grams per mile, but Toyota wants to be conservative and specs parts that deliver 10 grams. If the aftermarket delivers 25 grams, the O2S output, compared to the AFS output, may not be different enough to satisfy what Toyota has programmed the ECU to look for. Bad, bad Toyota for exceeding emissions standards!!! Everyone should aim for the lowest/easiest, not to excel.

A look at the data stream from the sensors would be worthwhile to see how much the cat is actually doing.

Once you get outside the long block, California parts vs. non-Cal can be different, so engine swaps have to take that into account. "49 states" is a very misleading label for parts, because a number of states require new cars sold within their borders to meet California standards, and thus parts have to match. 49 is, I believe, closer to 40.

Of course, there's a lot of bad experience reported with other than Denso sensors for O2 and AF, even with otherwise well known brand names like Bosch. But Denso can be had for prices essentially the same as Bosch, so why screw with other than OE spec on such a critical engine control part?
 

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mage pm me i have a program that will LOG the sensor data and you can play back the data from your couch and even email me the file and i can compare to my log at same speeds etc.
 
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