[Old Mechanic]

Just bought a 2013 Prius C 3. Got 60 MPG driving it home, spent 3 days cleaning it up and resurrecting the paint. Keeping one Echo (manual one). 178k miles original paint, dealer maintained for 140 k miles. It's hanging around 55 MPG now. I can wait for EVs just wish Toyota would still offer some parts for the Echo at 22.5 years old. That Prius is neat but complicated, but I bet my cost per mile is a lot lower than most. One ten year old and one 22.5 year old car. I doubt I'll buy any 10 year old used EV. I can understand countries that are trying to switch over to EV's but the trips you take in the US are still pushing them. Trying to remember the most money i paid for a car, maybe $12.9k OTD for a new one a few years back.

 

[Hacker_man]

Count on it, almost everyone has... Even the new hot hatch Corolla has an turbo inline 3 spinning up 300HP. For how long is the question.

Ask Ford, Chevy, VW/AG, Mini, and Fiat/Chrysler about how their high strung small displacement turboed engines have worked out...

Just say "NO" to "TURBO"

 

[mrmike7189]

The new Ford Bronco has a 2.7 litre twin turbo that has blown up a few times. ka-boom!😁

 

[1mrBlacky]

The new Ford Bronco has a 2.7 litre twin turbo that has blown up a few times. ka-boom!😁

Wow man,
They will just spool-up too damned fast.

 

[maverickracer.jcs]

Maybe the Discussion Starter has biases!

@katekebo I have read that Toyota is developing solid state batteries with Panasonic (??). Would you care to explain why Toyota will remain uncompetitive while acknowledging this detail?

They are also working with a company in California which is developing a silicon battery.

I hope Toyota doesn't drop the V6 engine and replace it with a whiny 4 cyl turbo.
The writing is on the wall.

They have already dropped the V6 in 2023 Highlander, I bought one of the last 2022 V6 Highlanders...welcome to smaller turbo engines. I had 1988 Turbo Coupe Thunderbird...with a little modification it put out close to 350hp and pulled down over 28mpg, have a 2021 Explorer, Turbo 4 with 300hp from the factory and with some chassis mods it leaves the V6 Highlander looking at the tail lights on twisty roads, even though it weighs 1000lbs more.
Nothing wrong with Turbo 4cyld engines.
Just to set the record straight, we've had Toyota's for over 23 years, Camrys, RAV4's and now a Highlander.

 

[Hacker_man]

The trend is to squeeze more horsepower into smaller engines and go turbo. The laws of physics say reliability will suffer. I won't even mention Honda's fuel dilution problem. Drive a turbo hard and it will likely get worse gas mileage than a plain old V6. Drive in gently and then you get good MPG and make the EPA happy.

Just my opinion, I'd rather a non turbo V6, and it's not just about the power.

 

[got-rice]

The new Ford Bronco has a 2.7 litre twin turbo that has blown up a few times. ka-boom!😁

People are still lining up to buy Broncos while the bZ4x is barely getting traction as a viable EV for the brand.

 

[1mrBlacky]

People are still lining up to buy Broncos while the bZ4x is barely getting traction as a viable EV for the brand.

Yeah, Jeeps too, each have their followers, disposable finances, e z credit and brand identification still go a long way here in the US of A !

 

[JoJone22]

I’ll never own an EV. And I think there are plenty of people out there that share the same opinion. The worst environmental impact is to drive an EV. Go look at the cobalt mine videos of the people in Africa mining for these resources. The worst conditions you could imagine…I refuse to support that.

 

[Hacker_man]

An EV currently costs more to operate than an ICE in MA.

I just ran the energy costs for EV vs Gas for 100 K Miles using our current electric rate of $.48/kWh and Gas at $3.50/Gal.
The average EV energy rate is 0.35 kWh/Mile and for Gas 25 MPG.

EV: 0.35 kWh/Mile, $0.48/kWh, 100K Miles, = $16,800
Gas: 25 MPG, $3.50 /Gallon, 100K Miles = $14,000

Maintenance cost would be lower for EV (hopefully).

I found an Online calculator that confirmed my numbers. It will cost me $2,800 more for me to power and EV at my current electric/gas rates over 100,000 miles. I will admit our Electric rate in MA is excessive and is an outlier.

 

[katekebo]

To make things even worse for Toyota, Tesla is working on a new platform that is expected to cut EV cost in half.
Toyota already admitted that they can't match Tesla's (and BYD's) current manufacturing costs, so the new Tesla platform will make things even more challenging.
And Toyota is drawing in debt already, with over $200 billion of long term liabilities, slightly more than there total market capitalization. They will need billions more to develop new dedicated EV platform. Now, they do have substantial cash reserves, but this can easily dry up with supply chain challenges and rising costs. While Toyota appears to be highly profitable at first sight, there financial situation is actually quite similar to where GM was a few years before bankruptcy. GM was also profitable, but they had crushing long term liabilities which eventually exceeded their assets. Toyota is perilously close to the same situation - with debt being very close to their combined market cap + cash reserves. However, any major drawdown on the cash reserves (for example, an expensive multi-billion recall, or another economic upset like COVID or a major war) could very easily tip them toward insolvency, and technically their labilities will exceed their assets. From their, it's a domino effect. Toyota could very quickly become a target of a very cheap takeover by a cash-rich competitor like BYD.

Tesla Confirms Next-Gen Vehicle Platform Is Under Development

Tesla is working on an all-new, next generation vehicle platform, which is expected to be ready in not too distant future.

insideevs.com

 

[mrmike7189]

People are still lining up to buy Broncos while the bZ4x is barely getting traction as a viable EV for the brand.

The three engine choices for the Bronco SUV include a 2.3L Turbo Inline-4 Gas, a 2.7L Turbo V6, and a twin-turbo 3.0L V6.
The 2,7 is the faulty engine.so smart buyers will choose one of the others.. thats something, Toyota doesnt give engine options usually it's one and done.

 

[1mrBlacky]

Katekebo; Always points n counter-points! Just released today, source: Motor1.com….Toyota has been named, Best Selling Automaker in 2022, with just under 10.5 million units, followed by VWGroup with 8.3 million. These are global sales numbers with supply chain issues, chip shortages and confusion around what to acquire Petrol/ICE, PHEV, BEV, FCEV etc. Should the sky really be falling, currently it would be on top of a-whole bunch of Toyotas!

All voids must be filled agreed, should it become an auto manufacturer other than Toyota, they’ve got a lot of catching-up to accomplish, My Two Cents!

 

[katekebo]

Katekebo; Always points n counter-points! Just released today, source: Motor1.com….Toyota has been named, Best Selling Automaker in 2022, with just under 10.5 million units, followed by VWGroup with 8.3 million. These are global sales numbers with supply chain issues, chip shortages and confusion around what to acquire Petrol/ICE, PHEV, BEV, FCEV etc. Should the sky really be falling, currently it would be on top of a-whole bunch of Toyotas!

All voids must be filled agreed, should it become an auto manufacturer other than Toyota, they’ve got a lot of catching-up to accomplish, My Two Cents!

Toyota is fine now. They are #1 in sales, make a decent profit and have a competitive product lineup TODAY. The issue is 3-5 years from now. EV adoption is moving faster that expected, and key competitors (Tesla, BYD, Hyundai/KIA, VW, Mercedes) have developed EV-dedicated platforms which are much cheaper and efficient for EVs than Toyota's. Toyota thought that they could compete in a relative small EV market with an e-TNGA platform shared with ICE powered and hybrid vehicles. This would make sense if EV were a small percentage of the market (less than 10%). But EV sales are already higher that 10% (12% in 2022) and growing fast. According to Ford a dedicated EV platform is 40% cheaper to manufacture than an ICE one. And Tesla is working on their next generation EV platform which they claim will cut the cost of EVs in half.

So now Toyota HAS TO develop a dedicated EV platform and do it fast. And that's challenging. 3 years is not enough. 5 years is a more realistic timing to develop a new platform, iron out all reliability issues and convert existing plants. By then EV market will be ~50% or more, and all these sales will go to Toyota's competitors. Toyota announced in October that they were stopping all development on the e-TNGA platform and instead starting from scratch to work on a new EV-only platform. Adding to the difficulty of this situation is the fact that Toyota has a massive amount of debt ($206 billion as of latest report) and developing a completely new platform and production line for it will require a lot more more money. Toyota is already looking at Tesla to copy their manufacturing process. But time is not on Toyota's side.

Things will move slower in the US, but US is hardly relevant anymore. It is only 11% of the global market and shrinking. China alone is 2.5x bigger market than US, and it's Chinese market that will dictate future automotive trends. And China is going EV at warp speed.

 

[T.N.T]

Electric Cars (EVs) Are a Huge Scam and Part of the Big Reset Agenda – Investment Watch

www.investmentwatchblog.com

 

[1mrBlacky]

Toyota is fine now. They are #1 in sales, make a decent profit and have a competitive product lineup TODAY. The issue is 3-5 years from now. EV adoption is moving faster that expected, and key competitors (Tesla, BYD, Hyundai/KIA, VW, Mercedes) have developed EV-dedicated platforms which are much cheaper and efficient for EVs than Toyota's. Toyota thought that they could compete in a relative small EV market with an e-TNGA platform shared with ICE powered and hybrid vehicles. This would make sense if EV were a small percentage of the market (less than 10%). But EV sales are already higher that 10% (12% in 2022) and growing fast. According to Ford a dedicated EV platform is 40% cheaper to manufacture than an ICE one. And Tesla is working on their next generation EV platform which they claim will cut the cost of EVs in half.

So now Toyota HAS TO develop a dedicated EV platform and do it fast. And that's challenging. 3 years is not enough. 5 years is a more realistic timing to develop a new platform, iron out all reliability issues and convert existing plants. By then EV market will be ~50% or more, and all these sales will go to Toyota's competitors. Toyota announced in October that they were stopping all development on the e-TNGA platform and instead starting from scratch to work on a new EV-only platform. Adding to the difficulty of this situation is the fact that Toyota has a massive amount of debt ($206 billion as of latest report) and developing a completely new platform and production line for it will require a lot more more money. Toyota is already looking at Tesla to copy their manufacturing process. But time is not on Toyota's side.

Things will move slower in the US, but US is hardly relevant anymore. It is only 11% of the global market and shrinking. China alone is 2.5x bigger market than US, and it's Chinese market that will dictate future automotive trends. And China is going EV at warp speed.

Kate, with respect I suggest, my Econ Prof would grade your paper quite high on the bell curve. My example of this Manufacturing Void, or laps in business trends etc, circles back to biblical thought; “The first now shall”…you know the rest. The same way I chose my first Honda Civic in the 70’s, new customers will move-on to the newest n most innovative vehicles they can find.

 

[got-rice]

Katekebo; Always points n counter-points! Just released today, source: Motor1.com….Toyota has been named, Best Selling Automaker in 2022, with just under 10.5 million units, followed by VWGroup with 8.3 million. These are global sales numbers with supply chain issues, chip shortages and confusion around what to acquire Petrol/ICE, PHEV, BEV, FCEV etc. Should the sky really be falling, currently it would be on top of a-whole bunch of Toyotas!

All voids must be filled agreed, should it become an auto manufacturer other than Toyota, they’ve got a lot of catching-up to accomplish, My Two Cents!

Make sure to link the source

Toyota Crowned Best-Selling Automaker In 2022 With Nearly 10.5 Million Cars

Toyota (including Daihatsu and Hino) sold 10,483,024 vehicles last year when the VW Group delivered only 8.3 million units.

www.motor1.com

I had heard that GM beat Toyota but that was just for the US sales crown, but globally they're still #1

General Motors Tops Toyota As Best-Selling Automaker In US For 2022

After just a year on top, Toyota had to give up its US sales crown to General Motors.

www.motor1.com

 

[katekebo]

Electric Cars (EVs) Are a Huge Scam and Part of the Big Reset Agenda – Investment Watch

www.investmentwatchblog.com

In 1922 Sarah T. Bushnell published the biography “The Truth About Henry Ford”. She included a story about attorney Horace Rackham whose law firm drew up the incorporation papers for Henry Ford’s automobile company in 1903. Rackham was asked to become an investor, but his health was poor, and he feared risking his precious savings. So he visited an unnamed leading banker to obtain advice.
The banker took him to a window. “Look,” he said pointing to the street. “You see all those people on their bicycles riding along the boulevard? There is not as many as there was a year ago. The novelty is wearing off; they are losing interest. That’s just the way it will be with automobiles. People will get the fever; and later they will throw them away. My advice is not to buy the stock. You might make money for a year or two, but in the end you would lose everything you put in. The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty — a fad.”

Also

It's obvious that the author of the investmentwatchblog is not an engineer. He's worried about power distribution infrastructure. The part that he missing completely is the fact that EVs can actually alleviate the power distribution problem. You can think of the electric grid as comprised of three elements: generation, distribution and consumption.
There is already a revolution going on in the generation area with distributed generation via solar panels installed on private homes. The problem is that this distributed generation is very uneven (the sun only shines a few hours per day) so it requires the conventional power generation to step in almost instantaneously to supplement the variations. This is expensive and puts a lot of strain on the distribution. It would be really nice if one could store the excess energy produced during intense sunshine hours and use it later when needed. And here is where EVs step in. Most EVs have way more storage capacity then they need 90% of the time. Your EV can can have 300 miles range, but on average people drive only 20-30 miles per day. So what can you do with this excess stored energy? "Inject" it back to the grid so your Tesla can "sell" its excess electricity to the neighbor's Tesla that is getting ready for a long road trip. Of course this requires that all these "smart" devices talk to each other. But the technology not only exists already, it's actually put in practice. Have you ever seen a guy from the utility company to ever come to your house to read the electric meter like they did 30 years ago? Of course not, because now your meter is constantly "talking" digitally with the utility company using the same wires that bring electricity to your house. And there is no reason why your meter (and Tesla) can't talk real time with your neighbor's meter (and Tesla). All the communication infrastructure is already there. And it's being tested as we speak.

Toyota, Texas Utility Partner on Vehicle-to-Grid Research

The Japanese carmaker has teamed up with Oncor, a Dallas-based utility provider, to research how energy can be pulled from an electric car’s battery and put back into the electric grid when it is under strain.

www.govtech.com

Let's talk in 10 years ...

 

[katekebo]

Kate, with respect I suggest, my Econ Prof would grade your paper quite high on the bell curve. My example of this Manufacturing Void, or laps in business trends etc, circles back to biblical thought; “The first now shall”…you know the rest. The same way I chose my first Honda Civic in the 70’s, new customers will move-on to the newest n most innovative vehicles they can find.

It's the essence of S-curve in innovation. EVs are the disruptive innovation that is allowing new players to step in and replace old, mature competitors.
Funny enough the pic below shows the transition from compact cassette to CD. The Dutch company Philips invented the former, while the latter was invented in partnership between Philips and SONY. Both were leaders in consumer electronics, very much like Toyota is today in automotive field. Philips did a great job by creating disruptive innovation not once, but twice in a row. But eventually both Philips and SONY faded into becoming irrelevant because they didn't catch on the digital revolution and were outclassed by Apple and its iPod.
Toyota is the SONY, Tesla is the Apple. Some established companies realized the potential of EVs and invested early (Hyundai/KIA, Mercedes-Benz, VW). New players sprang overnight (BYD). Toyota, on the other hand, is behaving exactly like SONY did when CD was becoming obsolete - SONY developed Blu-Ray, an incremental improvement to CDs which helped them to stay relevant for a few years, but eventually was replaced by streaming and solid state storage. Does anybody buy SONY TVs these days? I haven't seen one in stores in ages - it's Samsung, LG, Visio, etc. Toyota's hybrids are a perfect analogy to Blu-Ray, an incremental (and significant) improvement over previous technology, but not a disruptor.

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www.the-waves.org

 

[got-rice]

Electric Cars (EVs) Are a Huge Scam and Part of the Big Reset Agenda – Investment Watch

www.investmentwatchblog.com

Investment Watch Blog

CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence.

mediabiasfactcheck.com