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At the same time, don't listen either to the Ford Haight Boys, facts will serve you much better.

I've only ever had one Ford, still do and it's a 2002 Explorer which has done really well for me and I still enjoy driving it. Excellent handling, plenty of power and I think you'd do well to go and test drive as many of the options you've got available to you.

Last year I found out there were two non-Astro AWD minivans in the form of the Sienna and the Uplander, both of which seemed to be contenders when I first drove them. Liked the Uplanders quite a bit but slowly found myself preferring the idea of the Sienna, so here I am. A fairly recent Sienna owner who still likes the Explorer, which is just a smaller version of the Expedition.

Go drive some of them and compare to the other options that meet your requirements. Oh, and laugh at the Ford jokes, then come back to reality and go with your own judgement. None of us would have a Ford if all the jokes were facts.
I just go by what I see. I still see more Expeditions than 90s F-150s. Broncos on the other hand...
 

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I'f probably take a Tahoe or a Suburban over an Expedition. I wouldn't shy away from a blue oval for the right price. Those 90's Explorers ran like beasts until Cash for Clunkers destroyed them all.
 

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For whatever reason, I keep hearing about transmission problems with Ford and GM trucks. Perhaps many have had them last a long time, but the same could be said with 01-02 MDX/Odyssey transmissions. A good amount of people have them last over 200K, a good amount of people have them fail at 70K. I'd hardly call that reliable. It might last you a long time, but it might also not.

If you just need the space occasionally, personally I'd look at a used Sienna. The 04-10 models can be had really cheap - you can find a ~09 with 100K for ~5-6K. The 04-10 generation was super reliable. You seem to be a fan of buying new cars, though. Plus, I don't know if your wife would approve of having 4 cars...

A few months ago my aunt/uncle got into a really bad car accident and it got me paranoid about safety. They got hit by a drunk driver in a Corvette, but they were safe in their Touareg. I came across a local Odyssey on Craigslist and went to see it - an 08 Odyssey EX with 95K miles, and the owner accepted my offer of $4,000. But I dragged my feet on it after contacting my insurance and realizing it would cost me a small fortune to add a 3rd car to my insurance...
 

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I think Fix Or Repair Daily does have a lot of transmission problems. They work with GM in copying ZF RWD transmissions. I think GM did a better job not that they don't have problems. But even then the F series outsells GM trucks.

Drunk and Corvette is a bad combination. Even a drunk and Yaris can be bad. Did law enforcement put that driver in jail?

Touareg (aka Porsche Cayenne S) is built like a tank. That would be the silver lining in a bad situation.


For whatever reason, I keep hearing about transmission problems with Ford and GM trucks. Perhaps many have had them last a long time, but the same could be said with 01-02 MDX/Odyssey transmissions. A good amount of people have them last over 200K, a good amount of people have them fail at 70K. I'd hardly call that reliable. It might last you a long time, but it might also not.

If you just need the space occasionally, personally I'd look at a used Sienna. The 04-10 models can be had really cheap - you can find a ~09 with 100K for ~5-6K. The 04-10 generation was super reliable. You seem to be a fan of buying new cars, though. Plus, I don't know if your wife would approve of having 4 cars...

A few months ago my aunt/uncle got into a really bad car accident and it got me paranoid about safety. They got hit by a drunk driver in a Corvette, but they were safe in their Touareg. I came across a local Odyssey on Craigslist and went to see it - an 08 Odyssey EX with 95K miles, and the owner accepted my offer of $4,000. But I dragged my feet on it after contacting my insurance and realizing it would cost me a small fortune to add a 3rd car to my insurance...
 

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Did a search. Looks like the 9AT had a bad crimp on a sensor that caused false readings, leading to the transmission dropping into neutral and other shift problems. Hopefully they solved that. ZF RWD transmissions are pretty good.

Their compact transmission are even worse. I wouldn't touch a Ford. You just don't know what they're going to stick to you.

https://www.freep.com/in-depth/money/cars/ford/2019/07/11/ford-focus-fiesta-transmission-defect/1671198001/

If ZF can recall their 9-speed over a bad electrical crimp, wonder how Ford managed to weasel out of something much more significant.



6AT Pilot (lower trim ones) are reliable, but boring. 9AT Pilot also use that junk ZF 9AT. Don't touch them. If no good choices, I'd rather wait for next gen MDX or Sienna.
 

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I think Fix Or Repair Daily does have a lot of transmission problems. They work with GM in copying ZF RWD transmissions. I think GM did a better job not that they don't have problems. But even then the F series outsells GM trucks.

Drunk and Corvette is a bad combination. Even a drunk and Yaris can be bad. Did law enforcement put that driver in jail?

Touareg (aka Porsche Cayenne S) is built like a tank. That would be the silver lining in a bad situation.
F Series sells so much because as soon as you bought one you sold it :grin: Still looking to see a clean 90s era F-150 that is not rusted or built and lifted... :disappoin
 

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I think Fix Or Repair Daily does have a lot of transmission problems. They work with GM in copying ZF RWD transmissions. I think GM did a better job not that they don't have problems. But even then the F series outsells GM trucks.

Drunk and Corvette is a bad combination. Even a drunk and Yaris can be bad. Did law enforcement put that driver in jail?

Touareg (aka Porsche Cayenne S) is built like a tank. That would be the silver lining in a bad situation.
Did a search. Looks like the 9AT had a bad crimp on a sensor that caused false readings, leading to the transmission dropping into neutral and other shift problems. Hopefully they solved that. ZF RWD transmissions are pretty good.

Their compact transmission are even worse. I wouldn't touch a Ford. You just don't know what they're going to stick to you.

https://www.freep.com/in-depth/money/cars/ford/2019/07/11/ford-focus-fiesta-transmission-defect/1671198001/

If ZF can recall their 9-speed over a bad electrical crimp, wonder how Ford managed to weasel out of something much more significant.
I think you are right - I hear more about Ford transmission problems than with GM, although they have issues too. Generally, their engines are okay, but I keep reminding myself about timing chain issues with the Traverse and related cars.

I'm not sure that I'd be willing to touch any 9 speed transmission today. I'm not convinced the long-term reliability is there. Even Toyota's 8 speed auto... I have my reservations, but I might be able to trust that one because of Toyota's history of making reliable transmissions. I think the Odyssey has a 10 speed now. A good family friend bought a 2016 Pilot EX-L (6 speed auto) after his 2005 Odyssey was totaled on a ski trip we took together. Front and back were smashed (multi-car pile up, with the last vehicle being a semi), but he and his family were fine. At just over 1,000 miles, something went wrong with the transmission that prevented it from shifting past 3rd gear (I think it was 3rd gear). He drove it home from a weekend trip not going over 3rd gear and to the dealer and they obviously fixed it. Don't remember the problem, but I was surprised to hear about it, since almost all of the Pilot transmission issues were on the 9 speed. I guess he just had a bad one.

The Corvette may have been racing another car inside the Lincoln Tunnel connecting NYC to NJ and lost control, smashing into the side of the Touareg. I know he fled the scene but later "turned himself in" to the police. Not sure if it was actually him who turned himself in, or if he had gone home and then gotten someone else (maybe who was licensed) to vouch for him. Or if he went home and didn't turn himself in until the alcohol had worn down. I know his trial is coming up, although I don't know if he can be proven to be drunk since he fled. He most likely won't be put in jail.

Funny enough, my uncle/aunt replaced their totaled blue 2016 Touareg Sport with... you guessed it! A blue 2016 Touareg Sport.
 

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owned a Taurus

so no, never again.

There is an ongoing class action on Ford for their Focus and Fiesta ATs by 1.9 million owners.
Ford knew for 5 years these were faulty and did NOTHING, the estimated recall cost is in the BILLIONS!
 

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Looking for a family hauler now. The perfect one, on paper, seems to be Ford Expedition. (Really don't want to buy an auto dinosaur like Sequoia.

I don't want to hear it from some Ford fan boys who can easily look past all sorts of costs and headaches. I don't enjoy doing unnecessary repairs and preventive R&R's. Thanks for your opinions!
I've owned 2 Fords (79 Stang, 01 Ranger) and an 85 Sentra, 90 Nissan Pickup, and currently own an 07 Taco, and 18 Hilander. The Stang I owned had been sold as an economy car option in 79; it had a pinto engine and it ran crappy the whole time I owned it. The Ranger was crap. Things were constantly failing on it. When the radiator developed a pinhole leak in the deteriorating, not so heat resistant plastic, it was easy enough to switch out , but most other jobs were a pain. I seem to remember being frustrated at having to remove a bunch of garbage off the top of the engine, just to get at the plugs (or something). I got so depressed owning that vehicle, that I talked myself into getting a new Frontier quad cab; but the dealership was out of them Waiting for next years models to come in. So I thought I would see what toyota had. They had 2 quad cab Tacos left; I bought one. I'm one of those guys that prefers to do his own oil changes. The Taco has an upside down filter which is up high right beside the oil fill cap. I love stuff like that. It is so much easier for diy stuff. I can see all the plugs... I havn't done any diy for the Hilander yet. But I will do my own oil changes when they aren't free. Best vehicle so far has been the 4 cyl 90 nissan pickup. At 185,000 I would notice no drop on the dipstic between oil changes. I think I did them every 3500 though. And if I ran it hard, like took it to the mountains, and did high speed interstate driving for extended periods, it sometimes would drop a tiny bit between changes, but mostly it would not. I'm still doing great with the Taco and Hilander though. Back in the day my mah had a Ford Maverick. That was a reliable car. Over the years I have heard alot of people say that Ford intentionally makes their cars a pain to work on so that the owners will take it to a professional for repairs; the logic being that the professional would do a much better job, increasing the longevity of the car and the brand as well. I don't think it has worked out that way.
 

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I don't think our next-door neighbor has a good opinion of Fords at the moment.

282220


To be specific, he had either a trickle charger or a block heater on it, I forget which, but it did not end well.

All that aside, I'm wondering why no one has mentioned a Sienna yet. If you want a family-hauler, that's a family-hauler. Our 2005 XLE AWD Limited is approaching 200K and still going strong.
 

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Hey, I know this is an old thread for the OP, but here's my perspective as a 30-year auto parts sales guy.
When I buy, I buy according to which vehicles I sell the most parts on. IF I had to choose between the later GM's, Fords and Dodges...as of today it'd be a Dodge BECAUSE I sell WAY fewer repair parts for them.
But really, the quality on all three is a big let down. Let me explain...
1) If you gave me a new diesel from any of them I'd appreciate the proceeds from the immediate sale to finance the purchase of a good vehicle. My definition of good here is a vehicle that when I purchase it new I don't immediately need to spend several more thousand dollars on top of the original incredibly unjustifiable initial price...just to make it a normal, reliable vehicle through EGR deletes, DEF deletes, bulletproofing, etc. Why does that appeal to people?
2) GM. Never mind the weak valve train oiling that's caused rattles and more rattles and lifter changes and cam changes and snake oil sales. Forget all that. It's enough for me that the standard GM dealer mantra now is, "Oh, but it's normal to burn a quart of oil between changes." That's just preposterous enough that I did some research. Seems that the "4-6-8" cylinder cutoff system on many of their trucks means that there's no fuel going into two to four of the cylinders at times. That means dry cylinders. So they inject frigging motor oil into the cylinder to lube the cylinder. There's your oil loss. And what about that oil going through the cats? I HOPE they've done some compensatory engineering to prevent premature cat failure due to contamination. But that leads me to my next point...
My son has a 2017 Malibu with the 1.5 turbo. Awesome power AND mileage in a largish car...35 solid mpg and it runs out really nice. BUT...they suffer from an oil dilution problem SOMETIMES at low rpms under load due to turbo factors I don't feel like going into right now. Detonation killed one of his pistons at 56k miles. He just got the car back after them replacing all four pistons "just to be sure". And I haven't gotten a straight answer yet from GM on whether this problem is now FIXED or simply had a BANDAID applied. But I will... I told him just to drive it until he's almost to the 100k warranty limit and then trade it for a reliable car.
3) THAT leads me to Ford. Ecoboost. Twin turbos. Same potential problem and God forbid you're beyond warranty when one or both turbos puke. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
4) Dodge. Yes, they had trans problems up to the early mid 2000's. I sold more than one $600 input shaft. Seems to be fixed now. Yes, the hemis had issues with valve studs pulling out. Seems to be fixed now. I just don't hear or see the complaints anymore, so it's kind or a process of elimination there. And they will tow the world with a good hitch.

So of the Big Three, I'd go Dodge. But then...I bought a TRD package Tacoma with the pushbutton locker rear so I could tow. In pure towing, I've had no problems, but I do understand that mass is important in a towing vehicle. No 40' foot campers or twin engine deep sea boats for me lol, so if you're pulling huge mass I understand.

Here's a REALLY good article explaining indepth the issue I was talking about with my son's car. Bear in mind that the same problem can happen with ANY turbo vehicle. I love turbo's, but dang the damage and wear!

Sorry for the wall, but this was hard to condense.
 

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^this, a million times this

LOL Ford. OK, I'm going to offer a slightly different perspective than a consumer could (not just because I would never buy a new Ford). I used to be an emissions control engineer, and the equipment I designed was used in most manufacturers you've heard of's skunkworks to develop engine emissions, EFI, etc. So I got to see the inside workings of a lot of these guys, and the way Ford works internally is best characterized as "fiefdoms." Great when you're trying to sell stuff to them, not so good when they try to put together a cohesive product because there's no concurrent design going on. That's why Fords tend to be terrible to work on, including the new ones...one team designed the cooling system, one designed the engine bottom end, one designed the emissions system, and nobody talked to each other during development. No real communication, in fact, until it came time to put it together into a car...which is why when you work on Fords you're like WTF, this stuff looks like it's been jury-rigged onto the back of the intake (the EGR on my Taurus' Vulcan engine, for example).

Back to the powertrain in the new Ford trucks. EcoBoosts aren't bad engines, it'll do what you want but don't expect great fuel economy (and I mean, even for a truck). Some claim they get good fuel economy, but the vast majority of my customers running EcoBoosts pay through the nose for gas. The 10AT has some very well-known problems and should be avoided, Google.

Dunno how much space is needed, but IMO you should buy a used LC or Sequoia, or a nice GM truck without AFM. These cars will be increasingly DIY-unfriendly, especially to a weekend wrencher...the best example I can provide is O2 sensors on a UR engine vs a UZ (literally quadruple the time required, due to how packed the engine bay is). The Toyotas will still be the easiest to work on for anything modern, unless you buy a Honda but they don't really make anything big-big.
Your thoughts on the mustang? I heard those are different in terms of build. They put more attention to it.

I had a ford taurus as a company car. One year into the car, one morning leaving for work there was a transmission fluid in our driveway. About 2 quarts spilled on the driveway.
 

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Just my .02... My last Ford experience was a '96 Ford Explorer 5.0L AWD that I bought new. Other than a new water pump and a power steering pump that failed in the first month of ownership never had a problem with it. Sold it to my nephew and still on the road today. It was a basic model though. All I will say about turbos (petrol/gasoline applications) is no one ever added one to a vehicle to increase reliability & longevity. Unless no other option I exclude them from consideration. Perhaps the youthful experience with a '84 Mitsubishi Cordia turbo that ate a quart of oil every 150 miles left a lasting impression 25 years later. As for SUVs... maybe not big enough for your application but will keep my '12 Lexus GX 460 Premium until parts are no longer available or a careless motorist takes it out. The 460 checks all of the boxes for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
That's right. I don't care about turbo as well. Ford gave F150 5.0 V8, but skipped it for expedition. Don't know about the logic here.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

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Looking for a family hauler now. The perfect one, on paper, seems to be Ford Expedition. (Really don't want to buy an auto dinosaur like Sequoia. The mpg is horrendous as well.) But having owned exclusively Japanese cars from a long time ago, I find I have developed a strange mentality that it is very hard for me to trust the reliability of cars made by American or German companies. So I am looking to find a certain type of people to solicit their opinions. I am looking for guys who have enjoyed the superb reliability of Gen 3 & 4 Camry's, AND who also had a good amount of exposure to Ford trucks, esp. the newer ones.


I am really curious as to whether the 3.5T EcoBoost engine and the 10AT have been perfected enough to be trust-worthy. Also how DIY-friendly is Expedition? The biggest draw of Expedition for me is (1) Superb space (2) Safety (3) Good highway mileage. I really hope that it is a vehicle that I can reply on for around 15 years and the repairs won't cost me an arm and a leg. Normal maintenance should be fine. I am handy enough to make that expense negligible.


I don't want to hear it from some Ford fan boys who can easily look past all sorts of costs and headaches. I don't enjoy doing unnecessary repairs and preventive R&R's. Thanks for your opinions!
If you watch Scotty Kilmer on YouTube and trust him, it would be a good choice for you. He recommends ford vehicles more than the other big 3s and says that the German cars are money pits as they age. If you’re not going to buy a Toyota, buy the ford. Look him up.
 

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I mean, it depends on which Mustang you're talking about. The new ones, not bad since they've had IRS and the Coyote is a fantastic motor (IMO).

Old ones? Still use Ford corporate crap, which used to be bottom-of-the-barrel. Modular engines weren't terrible but not great either (again, IMO), but 4R70W? Ew. Anything AXOD-derived, EW. Ever driven an SN95? There will be people who like/liked them, but objectively, it's a bad car. Doesn't even look that great (IMO).

But the Mustang was a moneymaker for them so maybe they did put more effort into it. Take the Focus RS that just left the building, for some people it was hard to justify a 40K pricetag for a high-performance, Euro Ford...that still had the same nasty plastic interior as a base model.

Yeah, Tauruses suck. I have one, was perfectly maintained and transmission ate itself at 79K. Waiting until I get my Toyotas running until I find a used transmission, and pay a transmission shop $800 to throw Sonnax's entire catalog of fixes at it (they are LEGION). I would rebuild a used one myself, but I glanced at the usual Taurus forums, don't much like the crowd and I already know how to rebuild AX4Ns. Oh, comparison of my '05 Taurus to my '99 Camry:

  • both 3.0L. Camry DOHC, Taurus pushrod
  • Camry rated at 19/27, Taurus rated at 13/19
  • with those big DOHC Mickey Mouse-ear heads, Camry somehow easier to work on
  • Camry parts cheaper and more durable. The plastic pulley (OE) on the Ford CII P/S pump had chips in it, so I got an aftermarket Cardone. For $18, it was metal and powdercoated WTF Ford's OE parts quality is garbage
  • Ford parts system is asinine. Can not figure out how or why they supersede parts, and neither can my last-resort dealer parts counters
  • Camry 194 HP, Taurus 150 HP. Approx. same torque (180 lb-ft or so). The only fancy tech on the 1MZ is the ACIS variable intake system. Taurus has all sorts of fancy garbage: variable intake, e-throttle, DPFE, magnesium valve covers for some reason etc. etc
  • Taurus is a fleet-spec, column shift: seats 6, while Camry seats 5. Camry infinitely more comfortable
  • The Taurus looks like a white potato.
  • I'll give the Taurus one thing, Ford's simple PCV systems always seem to keep the engines clean (my Vulcan is spotless inside, not a dot of sludge). Toyota doesn't seem to have figured that out
Your thoughts on the mustang? I heard those are different in terms of build. They put more attention to it.

I had a ford taurus as a company car. One year into the car, one morning leaving for work there was a transmission fluid in our driveway. About 2 quarts spilled on the driveway.
 
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