How does it match up to fresh fluid out of the bottle?
Did the old stuff smell burnt?

 

First drain and fill showed dark fluid but not burnet...

Here is a better pic of 4th drain and fill (left) overflow fluid. Next to new toyota atf ws fluid

During final 4th drain and fill overflow drain the fluid looked nice and red when draining...noticeably redder than prior drain and fills..

I was surprised that the fluid was still a tad dark.

Is this typical results for u760e transmissions..given only 2 quarts drain out?

 

If you are only removing 2 quarts or less with each of four drainings, your fluid now still contains about 30% of the old fluid.

What I did when I recently changed my fluid (after first 25k miles) was to create a sequence of fluid removal steps that maximized the effectiveness of the flush.

Without ever removing the pan, I did this:

<<<<My driveway is FAR from level....>>>>
Establish a level-car elevated position that is safe!
Use frame rail and rear-most top surface of engine cover for level reference (I tested these locations thoroughly).

Drain the sump pan from the drain plug (less than 2 quarts).

Use thin, U-shaped plastic tubing to vacuum-extract last 1.3 quarts from below the top of the threaded drain plug bung in the pan (a total of 3.0 quarts old fluid now having been removed).

Re-install stand-pipe and drain plug.

Re-fill (over-fill) the transmission with 4 quarts new WS fluid.

Remove the return line from the trans fluid heater/cooler and run a plastic hose from the heater/cooler to a graduated clear plastic milk container (placed in sight of driver and anchored so as to not tip over!).

Start engine, cycle through the gears twice, then stop engine after just under 2 quarts have drained into bucket. Stop engine and drain the bucket.

Add (re-over-fill) 2 more quarts of WS fluid and repeat the above steps.

Repeat the above one more time, then restore the fluid return line and add the last two quarts.
Re-install fill plug and torque to 36ft-lbs.
(Optional step, drive car up the block and back and return car to perfectly level, elevated stance).

Allow engine head to cool below 85F.
(((note that IR temp readers will read low on bare metal surfaces)))

Start engine, then remove transmission pan drain plug for the last time.

Monitor pan temp and re-install plug as the temp is reaching 105F.

The approximate 1 quart of fluid that came out after the final draining (with stand-pipe in place) looked like new fluid, only slightly darker in appearance.

A total of 10 quarts of new WS fluid was used.

The last 2 quarts drained by hose was mostly clean fluid, and so was perhaps redundant and wasteful (by observation).
A car with higher mileage than my car's 25k would be a different story, so there will still be some bit of blackness tinting the fluid.

 

U-shaped plastic tubing

what's a good u shaped plastic tubing to use? what do you use to suck the fluid to start the flow out?

 

Not the same car but here is my experience.
There used to be "flush" sequence online for my older camry ('98) which involved disconnecting the radiator trans lines and letting the trans pump the fluid out. I believe it involved placing the output line into a bucket and running the car while a friend watched the fluid level in bucket and shutting the car off and refilling. Sorta risky if your not careful. Not sure if the newer Camry's can do this.

Can you just drain, refill, drive for a few hundred miles, repeat?
Like dddd said you can't get it all out so you are diluted it with each drain refill and sloshing it around.

 

thanks guys for the replies..thought i replied after dddd post.
ive read some other posts since i posted this original thread.
seems like 4x drain and fill will still yield "darker fluid"..much better fluid but still a tad dark/ dirty, based on other posts i read..
so i guess the answer to my question is yes.. this is common results after 4x drain and fill on sealed transmission models.

the fluid is definitely much improved... the 4th drain and fill, when i performed the final fluid drain leveling process, the fluid was noticeably "cleaner/ red" as i watched the fluid drain.

even with the 3rd cycle, when i performed the final fluid drain leveling step, i noticed that the fluid still looked a bit dark/ dirty during the draining.

the 4th cycle, fluid drained and showed a much "cleaner/red" fluid color.

ill probably wait until fall/ spring to perform another few cycles on the drain and fill.

performing this process during the summer is horrible, as how long it takes for the ATF to cool down to correct leveling temps for the final fluid drain leveling step.

 

'If the tranny has no dipstick, consider it a "SEALED FOR LIFE" unit, and I would only let the dealer service it.

 

Or learn how to do it properly, and do it yourself. The dealer techs often don’t do it properly either because they don’t know how, and/ or don’t care, and/ or don’t want to take the time to go through the proper level check procedure because time is money for them. I had a tranny fluid exchange done at the dealership. First, they overfilled it and blamed it on the machine. “Needs to be recalibrated” I was told. Then drained some out. “Should be good” I was told. Learned how to do it, bought a Scanguage, turns out it was 1/2 quart under filled. Can’t really trust anyone to do it right.

 

Well it's beyond me why auto mfgs. are doing away with the dipstick with a drain plug which made drain and fill a relatively simple procedure, which is not the case now. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a machine shop, or whatever, drill and tap a hole at the low point of the transmission pan, fit it with a drain plug making drain and fill a no brainer again.

 

the sealed units have an easily accessible drain plug.. drain plug is not the issue.

the cumbersome process, is fill process, without the dipstick.
the more cumbersome process is how to level the fluid during the final drain leveling process.

all in all, it is a still a simple process, once you perform the process a few times and have a scangauge ..
after 4 cycles of this process and removing the tire each time..ill probably buy a 24" socket extension to avoid removing the tire..

tire removal and reinstallation adds a fair amount of labour to the job..

 

I don't blame Toyota or anyone for making these transmissions less accessible.

Taking the world "fleet" of Camry's present and past, Toyota and Aisin (their transmission supplier) has no doubt paid a price for dipsticks just waiting for some half-wit to check and have things go downhill fast from there.

Being that the need for ultra low-profile transmission sumps is market-driven by competition for lowest hood line and lowest C of G, and that a very sensitive fluid level results from that, it's better for everyone if the transmission fluid doesn't ever get messed with by casual car owners interested in doing their own maintenance or perhaps by teenagers working their first job at a quick-lube shop.

Doing anything at all with the fluid on these cars shouldn't be taken lightly as there are so many ways that the transmission can be badly affected, everything from wrong fluids to wrong level resulting from wrong checking procedure or inexact temperature measurement, or plain-old haste.
For those that are willing and patient and are also competent, a fluid replacement may provide extra years of transmission service life that equates to longer life of the whole car!

Having just completed this job, thoroughly researched and done in thorough fashion, I am embarrassed to discuss how many hours actually went into the whole affair. And while this job would be simpler for someone with a garage available (or with a level driveway), this job still is not for everyone!

 

The process itself is fairly simple for drain and fill...just buy scangauge and figure out how to have your car level BEFORE starting the process....

Just takes more steps than the older dipstcik transmissions.

 

If you are using Toyota Genuine WS fluid it is usually darker when new. I get this all the time people accuse the dealership where I work of not replacing the fluid. Also the transmission in your car is an overflow type transmission. So the drain plug is not really a drain plug. Once you've removed the 6mm hex drain plug, Reinsert the same socket into the hole where the drain plug goes and undo the overflow tube then you'll drain about 3-4 quarts of fluid. There's no torque converter drain on this car so that's all you're getting out. At the dealership we connect an inline machine with the fluid warmer\cooler and we usually run 12 quarts of fluid basically exchanging the whole capacity of the transmission and then some. Then after all that we use a special tool to let us check the fluid level with the car warm. checking the fluid level is not hard but you have to be very accurate. Basically after you fully drain the transmission, install your overflow tube, add 4 quarts of trans fluid through the side of the transmission there's a 24mm bolt that you take out to add fluid, Then using a scan tool start the car, warm up the transmission to 93 degrees. Take out the drain plug if nothing comes out add, you want a slow trickle to come out then close it. if your temp goes over 104 before you have the trickle you have to stop, let it cool off and try again. Simple but usually not worth the hassle for 200-250 bucks at the dealership for a more comprehensive flush.

 

True you do have a pan drain plug plus an over fill tube (standpipe) that both have to be removed to drain the pan. Then reinstall the overfill tube and drain plug, add tranny fluid thru the refill plug, ck temperature, remove drain plug again to see if none or some fluid passes thru the overfill tube. Seems like a messy and needlessly complicated procedure. Correct me if I'm wrong. Why not get rid of the overfill tube, drain the pan when engine is cold, reinstall the drain plug without the overfill tube, and add same amount of fluid that came out. Is that possible? By the way even Toyota service doesn't seem to know why they went with a no dipstick sealed for life tranny.

 

Making these transmissions less accessible to owners and to oil-change outfits is a good way to prevent the all-too-easy screwing up of the fluid level or of the fluid type. This is probably better in terms of the "avarage" outcome on any 200,000 Camrys out there (and certainly better during their warranty period).

The fluid level is particularly sensitive on these cars because of market pressure to achieve lowest hood line and center of gravity. The sump is therefore very shallow.
Thus the need for more exacting fluid level procedures achieved by competent, educated personnel only.

Pulling out the drain plug and standpipe only drains out about 2qt, there is more than a quart still left in the pan below the top of the threaded bung! I used a bent piece of plastic tubing to vacuum-extract extract well over a quart of old fluid even after the fluid had stopped dripping. The standpipe and drain plug then get re-installed.

The torque converter and pump still contain another 4 quarts of old fluid. I added 4 quarts replacing the 3 quarts that I removed, then fitted a plastic hose to the heater/cooler outlet and removed just under 2 quarts with the engine running before shutting it off. I was able to shift through the gears while the nearly 2 quarts flowed out into the clear bucket having 1-quart markings visible from the driver's seat. I repeated this fill-and-pump-out procedure three times, so ended up removing a total of 9 full quarts of mostly dirty fluid, and with a very well-flushed transmission. I never had to remove the sump pan.

The final fluid level check must start with a cylinder head temperature at 90F or below, so that engine coolant doesn't heat up the transmission too fast for a reliable level-checking procedure. The temperature of the fluid still rises quickly as the engine warms up past 90F, and you want to re-fit the drain plug as the temperature comes up near 105F with the expanding fluid sort of bubbling out of the drain. Make sure there is more than enough fluid in the trans before the final start-up, or you'll be having to wait a very long time for things to cool back down below 90F or so to check the fluid level AGAIN.

>>>Do note that IR temperature readers read up to 10 degrees F low when aimed at BARE metal surfaces<<<<

I did this all for the first time at home, having to level my car accurately first and having all of the needed supplies and tools ready to go. The job still took quite a long time as everything needed to be done right without making a mess or running any air through the trans fluid pump.

 

I don't buy it. Next the auto boys will be eliminating the oil dipstick. True if you drain the pan you may only get a third of the fluid out, however do it 3 or 4 times with a few days driving between, and you'll get a pretty good fluid refresh. That's all the dealers were doing anyhow, and only 1 drain and fill for that matter. I had a 2014 Buick Regal, 9 quart capacity, and was able to drain 5.4 quarts each time I removed the drain bolt. That's a pretty good refresh. Checked with Toyota, and they said if it ain't leaking leave it alone, but to ck the level if you insist would be about an hours labor ($139) something that was free with a dipstick. Draw your own conclusion. I believe car makers are a victim of their own success, roughly 40/44 percent of a dealers profit comes from service, and on most modern reliable cars there's not a whole lot of service to perform. Had my 2016 MKZ in for inspection, and immediately was told engine and cabin air filters needed replacement. I recently replaced them so I know they didn't even look but it's a quick way of making a buck. Again, as I mentioned in another reply, one Toyota service rep. told me he had 130,000 miles on his Camry and never replaced the tranny fluid.

 

DDDD's statement make sense. He does a good job of explaining the technical reason why the design of the transmission requires eliminating the dip stick. The amount of fluid used is less so the level of the fluid has to be precise for the transmission to operate properly. You do not get this level of precision if you use a dip stick to check the fluid. With a dipstick you have an allowable hieght of about 1/2" marked on the stick (fill to between the two lines). With a stand pipe if you exceed the height of the pipe, it drains out- you do not have the 1/2" allowable band.

My car has 130K and the fluid has been changed 4 times. Is a 2012 4 cylinder and shifts like new with the original converter. Fluid looks like new when drained at 25K mile intervals.

Last time the dealer changed it they under filled the transmission by about 1/2 a quart. When I came to a stop it would sometimes go into neutral then I could feel it clunk back into gear when I took off. I checked it myself, added some fluid and no problem since. Luckily this was within a couple of days after being changed.

It is a good idea to recheck the fluid level after you drive about 25 miles. Must be proper temperature when you check it so I check it the next day after the air bubbles settle out.

I am glad somone mentioned removing the stand pipe. If you only remove the drain plug you are leaving about a quart more than you will if you remove the stand pipe.

 

Yeah, that half-quart under-filled at the dealer was probably because they let fluid drain out of the stand pipe at full operating temperature of 180-something degrees, instead of 105 degrees. Glad to hear that the symptoms were apparent and don't cause any damage right away.

If you tried draining your transmission with the standpipe left in place, almost nothing should come out. If done improperly (at full operating temperature), then I guess just a half-quart will come out if the trans was previously filled with the correct amount of oil. Pulling out the standpipe lets almost two quarts drain out, but still leaves over a quart of fluid in the pan below the top of the pan's threaded steel bung.

I thought about drilling a tiny ~horizontal hole through the threading, to reach the floor of the pan. This would allow draining it all from the pan. But, after re-filling for the last time, you would have to put a toothpick into the tiny hole while the temperature came up to 105 degrees with the standpipe in place, then remove the toothpick and very quickly insert the drain plug. I would have also had to remove the pan to clean up any drilling chips.

 

I'm not being a wise guy here, but maybe DDDD should clue Toyota in on this, because after quizzing several Toyota service depts. on the lack of a dipstick they had no idea why, and also seemed bewildered as to why I would want to change the fluid in the first place. Apparently they don't think it's necessary. I would be careful about drilling holes thru the treading because you might end up cross treading the drain plug. I believe there are aftermarket drain plug kits to add a conventional drain plug as well as replacement pans that come with one.

Amazon.com: B&M 80250 Automatic Transmission Universal Drain Plug Kit: Automotive

Buy B&M 80250 Automatic Transmission Universal Drain Plug Kit: Oil Drain Plugs - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

You would not be incurring the risk of threading damage by drilling a toothpick-sized hole through the threaded bung.
It might not be a good idea though, at least in terms of a subsequent owner perhaps not knowing why the oil kept tricking out with the standpipe still in place. It might lead to the fluid-change person letting out too much fluid as the temperature rose through the temperature range(?).

 

Well, I'm not a 100% sure about not cross threading, but do agree it's not a good idea. In addition to calling Toyota I also called a few independent transmission shops and they could not provide definitive info on dipstick less transmissions. However, I did find some information as fol..

The industry argument

According to the industry experts, the reason for eliminating the transmission dipstick is that although most consumers may believe they should check their transmission dipstick and fluid level, experts claim that it is actually better for vehicle transmissions to only be serviced by professionals. For example, adding improper fluid to the transmission is actually detrimental to its life, which is why manufacturers decided that getting rid of the dipstick was one way to prevent premature, owner-induced transmission failure in new vehicles.
If you have a newer car or truck model that has no transmission dipstick, this is actually evidence that the vehicle’s manufacturer expects the original transmission fluid to last the life of the vehicle.

I'm not making this stuff up, but will find the industry's argument interesting when and if they eliminate the oil dipstick.

 

I think the ~100F check range is more for tech safety vs positioning the check plug/tube for 180-200F checks. Water heater manuals will tell you 140F is enough to cause scald in LESS THAN 5 seconds, where 120F won't for "more than 5 minutes".

See page 3 Time/Temperature Relationship in Scalds:

https://parts2.rheem.com/waterheater/PDFs/AP12168.pdf

Also, the lack of a dipstick and tube was probably an accounting decision, not engineering. I'd think most owners don't even pop the hood (we TN members are different of course), or even change engine oil on time.

 

I had thought about that exact problem with checking the level at 180F using the standpipe method.
You would need to wear three layers of disposable gloves to avoid real discomfort there!

Water is actually much more scalding than oil, it carries heat much more effectively because of it's lower viscosity, and it holds a lot more heat per degree than oil.
That special property of water is what makes it the best coolant, i.e. because it has about the highest "specific heat" number of any material on earth.

It all comes down to the numbers, how much money is lost to improper fluid and/or fluid level, versus how much money is lost to old fluid not being changed. From the car maker's perspective, they don't want warranty claims but they also don't want their cars having a reputation for crapping out shortly after warranty.

Many Toyota dealers are fully equipped with a device which interrupts the return line from the fluid heater/cooler, and which pumps in the same amount (or slightly more?) of new fluid as the old fluid which comes out from the heater/cooler.
There is still the need to check/correct the fluid level afterward, since the temperature of the incoming and outgoing fluid will not be the same. This step being ignored is possibly the cause of some transmissions ending up over-filled, since the colder new fluid going in will then expand as it reaches the temperature of the transmission.
Such dealers will likely/hopefully(!) also have a temperature-adjustable standpipe and a vacuum device that prevents the fluid from flowing out while the adjustable standpipe is withdrawn and the OEM standpipe and drain plug are re-installed.

It would seem like a very good idea to find out which dealers are so well equipped to do a thorough flushing and level check, since those dealers who recommend only ever "checking" the fluid are more likely the ones without such apparatus (and competent personnel) for doing this job properly.
There are also some independent repair shops who are fully equipped to service transmissions on the newest and most expensive cars. I would ask any dealer or independent shop about 1) If they recommend such work, 2) if they have any special equipment for doing it, and 3) whether or not they use factory-original fluid when they do the job.
Likely not everybody has such a shop nearby however. Checking shop reviews is also a good idea before handing over your car and keys for transmission service work.

 

All dealers are capable of correctly checking ATF level.
Service writers are clueless.
Techs are lazy and I don't even consider them professionals! Many are barely capable of reading a factory service manual.
Owners aren't much different than service writers. Many aren't capable of reading an owners manual and you want them to use the not so common sense????

It was the insurance industry that pushed dipstick removal. Too many fools overfilled their transmissions and caused underhood engine fires.... the running vehicle, proper ATF temp, and parked on level surface... is just too difficult for most. The environmentalists jumped on the bandwagon with the insurance industry. The automaker marketing department loves to market "reduced costs of ownership".

BTW, with the dipstick, the temp you should check the level at is 176F. If you ever checked the ATF level with a dipstick, did you ever check the ATF temp. The ATF level on my dipstick equipped Camry's, Highlanders, Corollas.... were always checked at 176F via a scan tool. Anyone???? If it can't be used correctly, eliminate it.

Fill a glass with 8-9 ounces of MILK. Remove 2 ounces of milk and refill with 2 ounces of water. Stir and repeat. How long will it take for the milk to disappear from the glass? Its what you are doing with the 2-quart drain/refill! Just can't understand why I can't get rid of the milk in my glass
You want that glass clean, dump the 8-9 ounces and refill with water. The residual is NO different than your cooler line flushes, repeat drain/refills(siphon/refills).....

If you want it done completely, you either perform 20-30 drain/refills with the 10 minute drive in between, or you do a cooler line flush, after the 1st drain/refill, with double the ATF capacity amount of quarts. Whether you use a fancy machine that exchanges fluid, or a bucket, hose, and funnel doesn't make a difference.

 

All dealers are capable of correctly checking ATF level.
Service writers are clueless.
Techs are lazy and I don't even consider them professionals! Many are barely capable of reading a factory service manual.
Owners aren't much different than service writers. Many aren't capable of reading an owners manual and you want them to use the not so common sense????

It was the insurance industry that pushed dipstick removal. Too many fools overfilled their transmissions and caused underhood engine fires.... the running vehicle, proper ATF temp, and parked on level surface... is just too difficult for most. The environmentalists jumped on the bandwagon with the insurance industry. The automaker marketing department loves to market "reduced costs of ownership".

BTW, with the dipstick, the temp you should check the level at is 176F. If you ever checked the ATF level with a dipstick, did you ever check the ATF temp. The ATF level on my dipstick equipped Camry's, Highlanders, Corollas.... were always checked at 176F via a scan tool. Anyone???? If it can't be used correctly, eliminate it.

Fill a glass with 8-9 ounces of MILK. Remove 2 ounces of milk and refill with 2 ounces of water. Stir and repeat. How long will it take for the milk to disappear from the glass? Its what you are doing with the 2-quart drain/refill! Just can't understand why I can't get rid of the milk in my glass
You want that glass clean, dump the 8-9 ounces and refill with water. The residual is NO different than your cooler line flushes, repeat drain/refills(siphon/refills).....

If you want it done completely, you either perform 20-30 drain/refills with the 10 minute drive in between, or you do a cooler line flush, after the 1st drain/refill, with double the ATF capacity amount of quarts. Whether you use a fancy machine that exchanges fluid, or a bucket, hose, and funnel doesn't make a difference.

Brevity, on point and concise post...

 

So, this is how I level my Camry as my driveway has a slight slant. The additional height from the pieces of wood gives me a little more room to work. To get the car as level as possible I deflate the tires some. I do a drain and fill, putting back the same amount that comes out.
For a diyer if you think the Camry is bad do a Benz ! In my case it was my 09 E350. For one there isn't a fill port so a special adapter is needed to pump up the fluid. Secondly the standpipe is dislodged from its seat using a screw driver and once that is done the pan must be dropped to reseat it. So kudos to Toyota for putting in a screw type standpipe and a fill port. Now I must say that the there is a drain plug for the toque converter on the Benz, nice feature! For the Benz the temperature is 45C which is about 113F , pretty much the same for the Camry. At this temp the fluid is warm to the touch

 

I put on new tires today and took the Camry in for alignment. I asked the service writer about transmission service and he told me the strainer is lifetime and fluid change at 80k miles.

 

I just use my first drain as a reference always. What I mean by that is my first pan drain I got out 2qts 12 oz. so whenever I drain I put that back in ( this is a 2014.5 2.5L). Cold car, same ramps and driveway. Whether it’s changing the filter, flushing from the line, etc, the last step is always a final cold drain and refilling with 2qt12oz.
And I use Maxlife in all my cars, great stuff. Been using for 15 years in all my family’s Hyundai’s, Toyotas and Honda’s. Never had a failure. (Prius 300k, Pilot 200k, Odyssey 160k, Camry 120k, Sedona 220k)