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Automakers' Horsepower Ratings Drop Due to Stricter SAE Rules

14K views 48 replies 21 participants last post by  SuperchargedMR2  
#1 ·
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18135&page=1&pp=20

It sounds like Toyota and Honda used loopholes in horsepower rating systems to inflate their numbers. US domestic brands should not be affected by these stricter standards as they already followed SAE rules. This is pretty big and will not look good for the automakers who overrated horsepower when it is made public. Note: these revisions may also encompass European brands such as BMW, Volvo, Jaguar, etc.


Acura
RL: New horsepower/torque ratings: 290 horsepower SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 6200 rpm, 256 lbs-ft torque SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 5000 rpm (Was 300hp 260Tq)

TL: New horsepower/torque ratings: 258 horsepower SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 6200 rpm, 233 lbs-ft. of torque SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 5000 rpm (Was 270hp 238 Tq)

MDX: New horsepower/torque ratings: 253 horsepower SAE net (Rev 8/04) @ 5800 rpm, 250 lbs-ft. of torque SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 3500 rpm (Was 265hp 253Tq)

RSX: 155 horsepower SAE net (Rev 8/04) @ 6500 rpm, 139 lbs-ft. of torque SAE net (Rev 8/04) @ 4000 rpm

RSX Type-S: 201 horsepower SAE net (Rev 8/04) @ 7800 rpm, 140 lbs-ft of torque SAE net (Rev 8/04) @ 7000 rpm

Toyota Camry
Toyota Camry:

4-Cylinder: 154hp/160Tq (was 160hp/163Tq)
3.0 V6: 190hp/197Tq (was 210hp/220Tq)
3.3 V6: 210hp/220Tq (was 225hp/240Tq)

Pontiac G6 - was up
Pontiac G6:

3.5L: 201hp/222Tq (was 200hp/220Tq)

All Honda and many Toyota engines were never rated to the SAE standard in the first place, they just said they were. Whether sales and communications staff were aware of it or not, they were just giving Japanese data calcuated using the DIN standard and often metric rather than US hp. The "stricter" SAE standard just brought this discrepancy to light. No official figures have yet been released. No American engines will be affected, but Saab, Jaguar, Volvo and Chrysler's European sourced diesels may be, but not to the same extent as the European EEC standard is much closer to the SAE and turbos largely eliminate the remaining differences. The main problem they have is inadvertant use of metric rather than US hp. Marketing and communications staff have been more careless and ignorant than anything, unaware that Swedish and German words for horsepower refer to metric hp, not the US/Imperial standard. Media are often caught out as well, rushing to publication before manufacturers release US data in hp (SAE or not). Even though GM and Chrysler test using the SAE standard, published figures (even in dealer guides) regularly show obvious errors such as kW and hp ratings that don't match.
The loopholes they closed are modifications made to a vehicle used in testing. There is no honest mistake, or some new procedure that caught everyone off guard. They just stopped companies from making modifications to engines that would not be found in production cars. And what happened? GM numbers go up, imports go down. You may not like the results, but don't make excuses. GM has said they will certify their entire 06 line-up. That shows they have nothing to hide. If Toyota does the same, good for them. That Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infiniti don't, then you know they've been making modifications to misrepresent actual performance. Companies found to have substantially misled customers should be sued. People make purchasing decisions based on engine performance, and billion-dollar corporations should not be allowed to cheat customers because they didn't feel like actually spending the money to make their cars perform they way they claim.
 
#3 · (Edited)
All Honda and many Toyota engines were never rated to the SAE standard in the first place, they just said they were. Whether sales and communications staff were aware of it or not, they were just giving Japanese data calcuated using the DIN standard and often metric rather than US hp. The "stricter" SAE standard just brought this discrepancy to light.
Whoever wrote that is a fucking moron.:bash:
All car manufacturers in the U.S., including Toyota, have been presenting SAE Net horsepower figures to public for years.

What happened is that Toyota was the first and is the only company as of today to officially announce pricing of their entire 2006MY vehicle line-up; hence the revised hp numbers.

The updated SAE standard will affect ALL the other companies. The numbers will go DOWN across the board.

What about the supposedly revised numbers that went up?? That's because it's not the same engine! It's either the engine is new or has been upgraded.

In Japan, they use their own standard called JIS. It's a metric system, but that doesn't mean it's a "DIN."
 
#4 ·
As if a 10-15 hp change is something that will make you buy or not buy something. Sounds to me like someone is just trying to make Toyota, Honda and the other "imports" look bad.
Cap'n
 
#5 ·
No, they're not referring to using the rating "hp" instead of "bhp", they are talking about a new horsepower procedure called "J2723." The C6 Corvette was the first vehicle to be certified under this new revision back in April. Here's an excerpt from an article about it:

General Motors has become the first manufacturer to certify its horsepower and torque rating using the new Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) test procedure J2723. The 7.0L LS7 engine for the 2006 Corvette Z06 is the first to be certified under the new test procedure at 505 horsepower @ 6300 rpm and 470 lb-ft @ 4800 rpm.

"The new voluntary SAE power and torque certification procedure ensures fair, accurate ratings for horsepower and torque as it uses third-party certification," said Jim Queen, GM vice president, global engineering and the general chair for the 2005 SAE World Congress. "SAE technical standards level the playing field and this certification procedure is just the latest example of the value SAE has offered over the past century."
GM has already certified its entire '06 lineup under the J2723 procedure, and horsepower has remained the same as '05 except for cases like the G6 where there were likely engine improvements.

As for why you should care about losing up to 20 hp, companies have used horsepower as a selling point. This means that Ford's 3.0 Duratec that the press always bashes actually produces more horsepower than the Toyota 3.0L. It's misleading and dishonest. Personally, if I discovered that my Lumina made 20 hp less than advertised, I would be pissed.
 
#6 ·
me too i would be pissed.

but my Toyota 3.0 liter "produced" <~past tense 192 HP.

3.0 V6: 190hp/197Tq (was 210hp/220Tq) Now it's 190. a 2 HP loss. darn. My K&N air filter changed that! lol


^ where'd the original figure of 210 come from?
 
#7 · (Edited)
I just consider the source of this information: GM Inside News.
GM cant design cars that people actually want to buy without huge discounts, so now they are trying to call the foreign automakers liars by saying their HP claims arent true. Im not surprised, its typical GM.
Whats GM gonna say when Toyota is the world's largest automaker? Are they going to say that Toyota isnt using SAE sales figures? :rolleyes:
Cap'n
 
#8 ·
dsmnick said:
No, they're not referring to using the rating "hp" instead of "bhp", they are talking about a new horsepower procedure called "J2723." The C6 Corvette was the first vehicle to be certified under this new revision back in April. Here's an excerpt from an article about it:

GM has already certified its entire '06 lineup under the J2723 procedure, and horsepower has remained the same as '05 except for cases like the G6 where there were likely engine improvements.

As for why you should care about losing up to 20 hp, companies have used horsepower as a selling point. This means that Ford's 3.0 Duratec that the press always bashes actually produces more horsepower than the Toyota 3.0L. It's misleading and dishonest. Personally, if I discovered that my Lumina made 20 hp less than advertised, I would be pissed.
The updated power rating standard is J1349.
As I said earlier, currently Toyota is the only company that published revised hp/torque ratings on their entire '06 line-up.


J2723 is a new standard that lays out third-party verification procedure.
GM has NOT had their engines' ratings certified except Z06.
What they said is that they were thinking about expanding the range of vehicles that have "Certified" hp/torque figures.
 
#11 ·
zmech said:
J2723 is a new standard that lays out third-party verification procedure.
GM has NOT had their engines' ratings certified except Z06.
What they said is that they were thinking about expanding the range of vehicles that have "Certified" hp/torque figures.
Yeah, because the Z06 went from 500 to 505 hp. Wow, that'll make everyone go out and get a Z06. :rolleyes:

Looks like GM has gone to the resort of low ball slander and bullshit against their competitors. Like it was said before, no one wants to buy their cars without massive discounts so it's come down to this.

If GM would make a car besides the Corvette that people like, maybe we'd buy GM cars.
 
#12 ·
Did you hear about what GM is planning for the next-generation 'Vette? Apparently they are going to take the Hummer chassis, put the Z06 motor in it and make the body look like a cross between a 'Vette and a Hummer.
They claim that the average 'Vette owner has outgrown the 2-seat and wants a 500-hp SUV.
Im not joking.
Cap'n
 
#15 ·
Remember the new standard requires equipment to be installed before hp is measured i.e airconditioning, power steering, pumps etc. This sucks out HP. Therefore, the HP ratings is less. This in no way means the cars were overrated or anything. These cars would still produce the old higher HP without the equipment installed. It is just a different standard of measuring HP. Now with this new standard, there would be no overrating or underrating (unless the company refuses to abide by this new standard).
 
#16 · (Edited)
silver04rollas said:
Remember the new standard requires equipment to be installed before hp is measured i.e airconditioning, power steering, pumps etc. This sucks out HP. Therefore, the HP ratings is less. This in no way means the cars were overrated or anything. These cars would still produce the old higher HP without the equipment installed. It is just a different standard of measuring HP. Now with this new standard, there would be no overrating or underrating (unless the company refuses to abide by this new standard).
well that kinda makes sense, this "new rating" should be what the hp figures have always been. Why do i want to know what the hp is when there's no AC, no power steering, no... tires? LOL what good is that to anyone? I mean unless i'm swapping engines or something, but the engine that makes the most hp with the A/C is most likely the same engine that made the most without the A/C.

my question is: how is any engine gaining horsepower?? A/C and power steering will always suck from the engine, so how are some cars like the Z06 and Pontiac G6 gaining hp from the new ratings?
 
#17 ·
The ratings with A/C, PS, etc... have been the same way since the mid 70's. Before that, they measured without all that stuff.

The recent change was something else but I can't remember what it was. It wasn't about the A/C, PS, and all that stuff. It was about something else.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Well, the latest news is that Nissan is NOT rerating their existing engines per the latest SAE J1349, revised in August 2004.:smokin:

The hp numbers of some of their 2006 models mentioned in the press release linked below are the same as those of the '05 cars.

http://www.nissannews.com/nissan/news/pricing/20050811094506.shtml

There's a very interesting footnote at the end of the release:

"* All horsepower ratings are per SAE J1349 JUN1995"

They didn't note that in their lineup announcement last year.

http://www.nissannews.com/nissan/news/products/2004/20040907043831.shtml

So now we know that the last revision to the J1349 before the current one was made in June 1995.

Would that little revelation be construed as trying be just tad a little bit honest with the public?

OR is it going to be looked as a deception, by IMPLYING that's when the last update to the J1349 has been made?
 
#23 ·
Hmmm, could it be the domestic cars that are getting their asses handed to them in terms of sales?
And the reason? Perception. Perception that Toyota is a perennial leader, and domestics are utter junk. It doesn't matter if Ford is jumping by leaps and bounds in quality, tripling its interior budget, and producing cars with good value for the buck. The perception that they still build cars like it is 1982 is haunting them.

I notice that none of the negative articles about Toyota have been posted at this site. Believe me, they are abound and increasing with time. Of course, Toyota's perception that they are bullet-proof is giving them a free pass across the toll bridge while the domestics are forced to trudge through the mud and muck of the river. Not all Toyota's fault, but people need to get out of the past and move into the present.

I know there are some level-headed Toyota fans out there (especially at the boards I frequent), but the rest you guys need to be brought back down to Earth every once in a while. Domestics are not all junk, and Toyotas are not all super-reliable. I can face reality and admit when my automaker has problems...can you or your favorite company, Toyota? :disappoin

By the way, being the highest selling automaker is not all that it's cracked up to be. The growing pains associated with it, the arrogance of being at the top, and the press constantly watching every little step you make can reduce automotive giants to frail, stumbling victims. General Motors is your proof.
 
#24 ·
dsmnick said:
And the reason? Perception. Perception that Toyota is a perennial leader, and domestics are utter junk. It doesn't matter if Ford is jumping by leaps and bounds in quality, tripling its interior budget, and producing cars with good value for the buck. The perception that they still build cars like it is 1982 is haunting them.

I notice that none of the negative articles about Toyota have been posted at this site. Believe me, they are abound and increasing with time. Of course, Toyota's perception that they are bullet-proof is giving them a free pass across the toll bridge while the domestics are forced to trudge through the mud and muck of the river. Not all Toyota's fault, but people need to get out of the past and move into the present.

I know there are some level-headed Toyota fans out there (especially at the boards I frequent), but the rest you guys need to be brought back down to Earth every once in a while. Domestics are not all junk, and Toyotas are not all super-reliable. I can face reality and admit when my automaker has problems...can you or your favorite company, Toyota? :disappoin

By the way, being the highest selling automaker is not all that it's cracked up to be. The growing pains associated with it, the arrogance of being at the top, and the press constantly watching every little step you make can reduce automotive giants to frail, stumbling victims. General Motors is your proof.




:werd:
 
#25 · (Edited)
dsmnick said:
And the reason? Perception. Perception that Toyota is a perennial leader, and domestics are utter junk. It doesn't matter if Ford is jumping by leaps and bounds in quality, tripling its interior budget, and producing cars with good value for the buck. The perception that they still build cars like it is 1982 is haunting them.

I notice that none of the negative articles about Toyota have been posted at this site. Believe me, they are abound and increasing with time. Of course, Toyota's perception that they are bullet-proof is giving them a free pass across the toll bridge while the domestics are forced to trudge through the mud and muck of the river. Not all Toyota's fault, but people need to get out of the past and move into the present.

I know there are some level-headed Toyota fans out there (especially at the boards I frequent), but the rest you guys need to be brought back down to Earth every once in a while. Domestics are not all junk, and Toyotas are not all super-reliable. I can face reality and admit when my automaker has problems...can you or your favorite company, Toyota? :disappoin

By the way, being the highest selling automaker is not all that it's cracked up to be. The growing pains associated with it, the arrogance of being at the top, and the press constantly watching every little step you make can reduce automotive giants to frail, stumbling victims. General Motors is your proof.
Toyota sells way more Camrys than Ford does the Taurus so the Camry is obviously going to have a few more complaints, and the Taurus really doesn't have many owners as its a total rental car. Besides if the car was any good wouldn't Ford keep the nameplate? They know it's a bad car, and that's why they are replacing it. Toyota will do whatever it takes to keep its good name, as they won't throw their solid reputation away just so they can sell more vehicles. Lexus for the 11th year in a ROW had the highest quality, and CR recommends EVERY Toyota model even the Echo. Toyota will not become VW or Mercedes, but they never had quality to begin with anyway.
 
#26 ·
After looking at the the Taurus reviews it says at the top of the page "the most well written" meaning you filtered out all the bad reviews making it seem like the Taurus was good. What a lame shot. If you want to call our Toyotas junk then try to do it somewhere else.:thumbdown :thumbdown :disappoin :rolleyes: