If your brakes are not hot then they are not dragging. If you suspect dragging I would measure wheel temps with an infrared thermometer. You may have an issue with throttle response or transmission reaction.

 

Thanks soulsurvives,

I will have to track down down the thermometer. On some days you can feel that one wheel is hotter but its not as hot as you would expect with a locked piston or slide.

I had considered the transmission but when the car is "good" the trans feels okay and will glide as it is supposed to.

Happy to chase any leads atm though

cheers,

shobbz

 

It seems that all four wheels are affected.... master cylinder is my next guess?? or push rod extending too far??

 

What leads you to that conclusion?

 

Shotgun mechanics

Have it troubleshooted correctly. Brake drag is rare in a Toyota unless someone screwed up the caliper rebuild or brake installation.

You may have a driveability issue caused by engine, fuel, sensor, TB, or transmission issues.

Vacuum leaks caused by car to struggle. Defective gas pedal caused it to struggle. Defective throttle body caused it to struggle. Bad/cheap gasoline caused it to struggle. Defective spark plugs caused it to struggle. Clogged air filter caused it to struggle.

Replace the master cylinder. If it still struggles, I'll give you a list of parts that you can replace if you don't want to troubleshoot correctly. Shouldn't cost more than than $30,000 to replace them all.

 

Since you did the brake pads. Where they loose going on? The aren't suppose to be tight in the guides or require force to put them in the calipers.

I have done brake pads on many vehicles over the last 10 years and using aftermarket pads from different sources. They are ALL too tight and some can't even fit where they are meant to go. The steel backs are too big. I have to grind the tabs back to fit in. For a while I thought i got the wrong parts but verified the numbers in all cases were correct. Whom ever is making the plates are all too big. The pads need to be able to move in and out easily in the channels of your design. If they too snug they're staying in when the brakes are applied and not moving back at all.

The do touch normally but should not be dragging. Jack the wheel up and spin the wheel, each on and you'll feel it if they are.

 

Thanks for all the comments,

Greasymechtech I am honestly stumped. I took it to the local Toyota dealer twice and both times they said that nothing is wrong. Next stop unless i can work it out , i feel is a brake specialist. I am open to other suggestions but the issue develops, its not present at the start of a drive and can get slightly better after a longer drive on a highway. If i drive around stop start i can really feel the car struggle. I use the same petrol (gas) I travel the same route so i know how the car feels and this has been over our summer where temps are regularly just hot

This all started when i realised that the piston on my front left passenger side (Right hand drive car) piston was sticking, the pad was almost worn down, all other pads at the front showed normal wear. As the inner pad was almost worn to metal embarrassingly this may have been happening for some time, which I just putdown to extra load on the car from the AC.

Brake pads are Toyota, from the dealer, Front Caliper kit was Toyota, rear caliper kit was aftermarket as OEM was going to be ex Japan (up to two month wait). Kit includes, piston seal, dust cover and slide pin bush and flex line fitting. I even bought the soap based Toyota lube for the slide pins.

I did not replace the metal pad slide bits that fix to the caliper. For some reason i don't have the wear indicators front or real?? . I had the pads replaced by Toyota back in 2015 so i don't know if they were there to begin with.

The Pedal feel is different, sometimes when i Brake it appears to grab, now that i have rebuilt the calipers?? Previously the pedal Fade??? felt different depending on the day, ie how effective the brake pedal felt.

In its early life in my ownership i used to have to park on a steep hill and would really hold down the the pedal to hold the car before i put the handbrake on.... this was before i knew that the handbrake was a drum setup..... so i am worried that this is where i may have damaged the master cylinder seals.

Tripplec, A question that comes to mind.... The pads were a little stiff but not loose in the mounts, i did clean the metal tab pad retainer clips with a soft wire brush then some find steel wool.... but i did not lube the brake pad tabs as i have not done this on other cars? When i spin the wheel i can feel a small drag, more than would like as i know there may be a slight drag.

Should i have lubed the brake pad tabs... have i been foolish?

Happy to eat humble pie and open to suggestions. I would like to work this out myself but will take advice if i am out of my depth.

Cheers,

shobbz

 

OEM Brakes.
My brakes were done when I bought it from the Toyota dealer. they had put new rotors and pads on. Now the 2nd year and just over 20,000km I see ripple croves in the rotor surface on the drivers side front and back only. I looked into this while removing my winter wheels and and putting the summer ones on.

I pulled caliper off on the rear and checked. the inner pad was tight and couldn't float ast it needs to be able to move. The outer pad was fine. The front pads were ok and floating ok so I left that. The guide pins were a bit tight. I pulled and lubbed them. Neither exclusively explains the ripple wear on the rotors. If these are Toyota pads the material is all thats left to be responsible. I can't say I am impressed with their quality that being the case.

 

Dealer isn't the end all solution. Many times techs at dealers are lazy, clueless, take shortcuts, and cause problems. Time to find an independent shop that specializes in brakes and pay for their expertise. Or, continue with shotgun troll mechanics while hoping you find the problem when you run out of parts to replace.

If you have brake drag, you're overlooking something simple. So, its time to take it all apart, clean/brush/deburr everything, lube and assemble everything, and post pictures of all so that another set of forum eyes can see if you did something wrong.

I took don't care for OE pads. And, multiple services at various Toyota dealers left me seriously underwhelmed their quality of work and ethics.

Start over and do the job right. This means buying new rotors, calipers with brackets, pads, hardware, brake grease, master cylinder..... and follow the FSM and Toyota TSB concerning brake cleaning, lubing, assembly, bleeding.....

If you DIY rebuild calipers, maybe the rebuild kits were defective or the re-assembly damaged the square cut o-rings. So, source warrantied rebuilds from a local autopart store, dealer, online...

Print everything you need for your braking system here for $20
https://techinfo.snapon.com/TIS/Register.aspx

 

Thanks, Tripplec and Greasymechtech, for your comments,

Spurred on by a desire to get to the bottom of this I pulled the wheels off and went to work again today. I didn't take photos sadly.

On the retaining clips I filled away any small rust spots and then fine wet and dry sand papered them as well on the retaining clips where the pad clip into and then reinstalled with a very small amount of high temp grease. I also very lightly filed down the pad tabs just taking off paint as one tab was catching ever so slightly...... as it seemed that there was excess paint on the tab.

But the lower slide pins with bushes are really hard to get out. These are pins that have been out in the past month, have new bushes on them and i cleaned out the bores with a rag on a screw driver and brake cleaner so they have to be pretty clean. I am and have used the Toyota Lithlum soap base glycol grease #08887-01206 (looks like this picture)

on the slide pins so it should be the right stuff but three out of the four pins that had bushes on them (the lower ones) were almost stuck fast ie very hard to turn in their bores and needed quite a a pull to get them out by hand, without tools. I have tried limited amount of this grease as as well as larger amounts and today i re lubed with liberal amounts to see how that goes??

After this the car drives really well......... bit of lag but that's another hypothesis.....drive train strain due to brake drag......a transmission that suffered from acting against brake drag??? .... ...... and we can talk about the issues associated with replacing a fuel filter at another time

Could the proper grease be swelling the bushes on the slide pins??? Could it be that simple?

Cheers,

shobbz,

 

If the wrong grease was used, then the issues were caused by the brake job tech(either shop, dealer or YOU). Brake drag caused by stuck pins? Its common and usually the 1st place to look.
I still clearance my pad ears/tabs but I'd say in the past decade or so, that pad quality has improved drastically and most do not need to be filed sanded or ground to fit.

The correct grease must be rubber compatible, either the either silicone or PAG(glycol/lithium). PAG is polyalkylene glycol with a lithium soap. Leave it to toyota to offer so many greases when really only one is needed. Aftermarket glycol grease isn't easy to find.

You should NOT use any synthetic/conventional petroleum-type grease near any of the seals/dustcovers. These are commonly sold as brake greases and will always lead to problems. Don't break your brakes with synth-petro grease. Must be PAG or silicone. And, silicone will usually need a colloidal(powder) lube mixed with it... usually mos2, PTFE, WS2, graphite, or ceramic boron. The synth/petro grease can be used on the pad ears spots where the pad touches the caliper, usually far way from seals.

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/...-camry-7th-generation-2012-2017/1644198-uneven-brake-pad-wear.html#post13939736

And yes, it takes very little grease to grease pins and the seals. Most DIY'ers self-cause problems by packing grease in the pins/bores/dust covers. One of my cars, different make, has a 1.2-1.7 gram requirement for the pins. Weigh out 2 grams of grease on the scale will show you how badly over greased most pins are. Haven't glanced at my Toyota FSM so don't remember if they have an 'amount' requirement for greasing pins. I just use minimal by experience.

For example, the picture of pins here show about 10x too much grease, but the description lists the few OE PAG lubes that most can't source locally Niglube, Molykote, and Febi:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/PAG-20-g-S...PAG-20-g-SYNTHETIC-BRAKE-GREASE-FOR-CALIPER-GUIDE-PINS-AND-PISTONS/123642170594

 

I used to use a Caliper grease for decade (not much needed so it lasted) Yet when I did a brake job I found rust and seized guide pins. I gave up and searched around and and using a Castrol moisture compatible grease which is blue. Name I don't know at this time. It seems to work fine on 3 vehicles I have so far over a year.

Those pins must slide in out free as do the pads slide in the guides of the caliper. Most are stainless steel but I have some that rust and bubble so quality is key. Some aftermarket pads include new plates for them so watch for that if you're buying pads.

If you're spinning the wheel and its ok then nothing more has to be done. If you inspect and find the inner pad is nearly gone the caliper is either faulty or the pad is so tight it cannot move away from the rotore and has worn to the point of needing replacement.

 

Greasymechtech and Tripplec,

Thanks for your replies. I am leaning more and more towards the pins. I went with a small amount the first time and then a few days ago went with a coating, not excessive but more than i would think necessary to, test a theory.... I can only feel a light drag now, more intermittent than anything.

I was reading about "burping" out the air from the top dust cover, which makes sense so i am going to take the brackets off, really clean the bores out them apply a slight layer of the slide grease. IF this toyota stuff does not work i will look for something else.

I have been working on cars for years and this brakes have cause me the most angst of all.......... i used to own European cars!!!

Cheers,

shobbz

 

I have ended up replacing the brake master cylinder, trying to get the brake lines back on is hard!!! not sure if it is as hard on the Highlander but the Kluger has the master on the left hand side when facing the front of the car and the aircon lines are in the way.

There is still resistance (what i feel is drag), i am not sure sometimes it just feel like i am pulling a tonne behind me, maybe its fuel or transmission but if i do some hard braking for a little while it seems to come good then after a few more stop starts its back to the dragging sensation.

As its intermittant i feel (i don't know) that its not trans or fuel related, as i feel that these would be a always on or off scenario.

I will look to pull the calipers off again as i haven't done anything to them for a few months and see how they are.

Just an update, its still annoying me but I shall continue to search for a solution.

 

Did you ever find a solution to your "drag"? I've been having this same problem for years on my 2010 Corolla after my first, botched brake job that was eventually fixed. Two new master brake cylinders, new, rubber brake lines, new calipers, 5 pairs of brake pads, and over 10 pairs of warped rotors later, the issue persists for me.

Tried multiple mechanics and confirmed slide pins are super smooth when doing the job myself, but that on and off drag just doesn't go away. You're the only other person I've found experiencing this same issue. Hope you get a chance to view this.

 

when rotors warp, they dont warp like a frying pan dunked in cold water.
the pulsating is from the pad leaving deposits (little mounds like speed bumps) on the surface of the rotors.

id try a different pad and rotor from a different manufacturer. id also bed the brakes in properly.

have you been buying from the same manufacturer?

 

when rotors warp, they dont warp like a frying pan dunked in cold water.
the pulsating is from the pad leaving deposits (little mounds like speed bumps) on the surface of the rotors.

id try a different pad and rotor from a different manufacturer. id also bed the brakes in properly.

have you been buying from the same manufacturer?

Thanks for the input. I was unaware of the bedding process and just watched a video on it, which I'll be sure to do next time I change the brakes/rotors.

I tried brakes (ceramic) & rotors from AutoZone and ACDelco with the same, eventual pulsation that gets progressively worse (pretty bad right now) after the first week or two of installing both.

Just bought new brake pads (BOSCH BC1210 QuietCast Premium Ceramic Disc Brake Pads) and will look into a different brand for rotors. The bedding could potentially fix the pulsating, but unfortunately the random braking continues. I'll see if I can find a mechanic that can take a look at the brake booster push rod length, which I recall someone mentioned could be too long, which results in the brakes engaging.

 

Just buy OEM and you won't have issues.

 

Great recommendation. I'm hoping to make it to my mechanic over the next few weeks and will let you guys know how I make out. Will go OEM, but will leave the car with him and ask him to troubleshoot everything. Hoping to stop throwing parts at the brake system since I already changed every single component that's part of it and the issue persists.

I don't know if it's truly the brakes/rotors, but it kind of feels like something "bends" in the front left side of the wheel by the brake area and that lets the brakes/rotors shift and "catch". I feel it when I'm driving and it's like a sudden shift in that front/left brake area, the car begins to slows, and if I let it coast, it'll eventually "release" and the car continues cruising again. Sometimes if I'm coasting after just starting to drive, the issue is not present, but when I use the brakes, then the issue begins and that random re-engagement begins to happen sporadically.

I've even watched my speed and I can be going slightly downhill at say 45mph and when the brakes engage (i.e. that shifting/catching issue I mentioned), it'll literally gradually slow down to about 20-30mph before the eventual "release" happens and I begin to coast again. Even on a highway this happens, so I'm always accelerating against this constant/sporadic catching of the brakes. Seems to be more from the left/front side of the car only. Hope this makes sense, but I'm baffled.

My thoughts are that when I initially buttered the my first brake/rotor job on this car (1st time ever) and the caliper pins were seized on both front sides, I unfortunately had to drive the car with the brakes/caliper fully engaged for a good 100+ miles at highway speeds. Brakes/rotors were HOT when I got home and I always thought that maybe something (knuckle or some other component..?) got "bent" in the front as a result of that. This was some 5+ years ago and two mechanics were never able to figure out what is causing this. I continue to weep/suffer in silence due to my initial mistake.

 

^ thats also a safe bet ^

 

2008 Limited and before 2003 base.

alexisr85,
I just read this string and this came to mind right off the bat: Bent or cracked caliper bracket(s).
Yep.
Those tough looking brackets are easier to bend than they look.
I suggest a close inspection. Remove them if you have to. If questionable replace them. (Not that expensive.)

I have bent caliper brackets myself while trying to pull stuck caliper pins so I know how easy they bend. Hope this is of some help.
Hayabusafalcon....

 

2008 Limited and before 2003 base.

alexisr85,
I just read this string and this came to mind right off the bat: Bent or cracked caliper bracket(s).
Yep.
Those tough looking brackets are easier to bend than they look.
I suggest a close inspection. Remove them if you have to. If questionable replace them. (Not that expensive.)

I have bent caliper brackets myself while trying to pull stick caliper pins so I know how easy they bend. Hope this is of some help.
Hayabusafalcon....

Interesting you should mention that as I replaced the front-left caliper three times and the front-right one twice (brackets included). The last replacements on both sides were done by my mechanic. That's a great suggesting to double check those, but since the issue persisted even with the replacements, I'm not sure that'll be the issue.

When I drop off the car, my mechanic is looking to take everything apart and I'll make sure to bring this up as well, though I'd think he'd look into this. Thanks!

 

If the brakes are applying themselves you have a SERIOUS issue in the ABS/Trac Control system

 

That's where I'm completely thrown off by this since it feels like it's only the front brakes and the car doesn't suddenly begin a smooth braking (as if I was slightly depressing the brakes). It's more like something (brake pads?) is sliding around so that it touches/engages but gets "pushed" out of the way/position eventually. It's hard/weird to describe, but that's why I can best explain it as if something is moving/shifting randomly in that "brake area" the car begins to slow, but then it "lets go" and/or gets shifted out of the way.

For all I know you could be right and the ABS/Trac Control system is wonky, but I'm not very privy to that system and my little bit of knowledge is limited to the brakes/calipers and the other parts of the brake systems I've read/researched thus far. I've added this to the list of items to discuss with my mechanic. Thanks!

 

let us know what the mech comes up with.

im really interested to know lol

 

Great recommendation. I'm hoping to make it to my mechanic over the next few weeks and will let you guys know how I make out. Will go OEM, but will leave the car with him and ask him to troubleshoot everything. Hoping to stop throwing parts at the brake system since I already changed every single component that's part of it and the issue persists. I don't know if it's truly the brakes/rotors, but it kind of feels like something "bends" in the front left side of the wheel by the brake area and that lets the brakes/rotors shift and "catch". I feel it when I'm driving and it's like a sudden shift in that front/left brake area, the car begins to slows, and if I let it coast, it'll eventually "release" and the car continues cruising again. Sometimes if I'm coasting after just starting to drive, the issue is not present, but when I use the brakes, then the issue begins and that random re-engagement begins to happen sporadically. I've even watched my speed and I can be going slightly downhill at say 45mph and when the brakes engage (i.e. that shifting/catching issue I mentioned), it'll literally gradually slow down to about 20-30mph before the eventual "release" happens and I begin to coast again. Even on a highway this happens, so I'm always accelerating against this constant/sporadic catching of the brakes. Seems to be more from the left/front side of the car only. Hope this makes sense, but I'm baffled. My thoughts are that when I initially buttered the my first brake/rotor job on this car (1st time ever) and the caliper pins were seized on both front sides, I unfortunately had to drive the car with the brakes/caliper fully engaged for a good 100+ miles at highway speeds. Brakes/rotors were HOT when I got home and I always thought that maybe something (knuckle or some other component..?) got "bent" in the front as a result of that. This was some 5+ years ago and two mechanics were never able to figure out what is causing this. I continue to weep/suffer in silence due to my initial mistake.

I have this exact problem and it is driving me mad. Everything you described. Dealer and 3 local mechanics can't find anything wrong. 2015 Highlander AWD Platinum. The only thing that I have done that made it any better was disconnect the front driver wheel speed sensor. It improved a lot but not 100%. I had to reconnect it but it was better the couple days I had it disconnected. There are no codes in the system, no abs warning, no TCS lights. Nothing to indicate an issue but its killing the MPG. Barely get 12 MPG and that's mostly highway. Had both front wheel bearings replaced and new tires and the MPG decreased. I can feel the brakes engage without touching the pedal sometimes. It's not engine braking as the dealer tried to suggest. Dealer replaced calipers, brackets, rotors and pads, then said there's nothing wrong with it.

 

Maybe a bad tone wheel or 2 on the axle causing the ABSTrac to malfunction. If that happens it will not throw a code. Found it happen many times

 

Definitely need to measure the temperature of each wheel. If one is getting significantly hotter than the others then try the bleeder on that caliper to see if that helps. Just break it loose without any pedal pressure, for the purpose of testing the circuit at that point.
The caliper seal is supposed to "bend' when the brake is applied then return to a position where drag is minimal, not much but enough to make the friction almost non existent.
If the flexible brake hose is bad it can act as a "check valve" and maintain pressure on the pads even when there is no pressure on the pedal.
Also, if none of the above gives you a solution, then you can try breaking the line connections towards the ABS module to see if there is any pressure at the connections basically following the fluid pathway backwards towards the module itself.

 

could be a bad ABS tone ring. they do crack from time to time.
if the ring is cracked, it could rotate independent of the axle and cause the ABS to engage.