The same engine in my friend's Lexus IS350 makes 306 WHP (wheel horse power). Granted the tuning is different, but the engine is great.

Using premium fuel will increase performance, yes. But the engine can still run on regular 87 octane. I'm not sure what you mean by too powerful...I assume if you've never driven a car with a V6 it may be overwhelming, but it's no supercar.

 

...
Using premium fuel will increase performance, yes.

ummmm, NO! :disappoin
Premium does nothing except prevents detonations on engines that have higher compression. Camry engine does not have high compression ratio therefore does not require premium fuel.

Since you can't increase compression as you don't have a way of inducing more air into cylinders, you will not benefit from the premium gas.
If you really want to be technical about it, premium gas decreases performance on engines that are not required to use one as premium having more octanes, burns less rapidly therefore producing less force that acts upon the pistons during the detonation when the gas is ignited.

 

I heard that the V6 engine is too powerful for the Camry to handle.

*rofl* best joke of the day. LOL

I wouldn't put the V6 with the word "powerful". It can get the Camry moving much better than the I4. And V6 is best of both world, a good balance between power and gas mileage.

 

Well Considering how this engine could achieve 0-60MPH in 5.8 seconds in what is a everyday sedan and no sporting pretentious what so ever, it is powerful..

Not to mention the engine is the smoothest engine out there, velvety silky smooth and unruffled operations..

 

It's pretty impressive for an affordable midsize car. It can keep up with any Lexus out there (minus the LFA of course) and it could even hold its own against 6 cylinder sports cars. A 5.8 second 0-60 time is nothing to sneeze at, as far as I know that's the best 0-60 time in the mid-size class..? I've punched it in my SE V6 going about 30 and have actually gotten tire spin so it definitely brings the power. I wasn't expecting a sports car when I bought it but I wanted something that combined practical with fun. The V6 Camry does that. I avg. about 29 MPGs through 8000 miles, and I can still get on the throttle when I want to have a little fun and it will get me where I'm going in a hurry. The sound of the V6 is also nice. I've heard a lot of V6s, mostly with aftermarket exhausts, that just sound terrible (Ford's older 3.7 definitely comes to mind) but this engine sounds amazing for what it is, and for the type of car it is, it is a very underrated engine.

 

If you are looking to purchase, I find that 29mpg is not typical unless you are on cruise control on the highway much of the time. driving "fun" you can get lower than 19 and closer to 22-25 typically in a mixed highway/city environment.

Regarding premium fue-- I've done the 91/89 octane, and indeed you can tell a difference... but to me it seems like it affects the rpms in a way that causes the transmission to shift at weird times or shift too hard.

A friend of mine had a chip put in to his 07 camry... I really don't know anything about it but perhaps it helped to make it more like the lexus's tuning?

 

It's typical.

I have an '08 V6 XLE and regularly get 28mpg from full to empty tanks in mixed driving. 92k miles on the car now. Mixed in my case means 80% highway on weekdays and opposite on weekends. LOVE LOVE LOVE the engine power. Faster than most 4-door sedans out there.

 

what does "FE" stand for, Fuel Efficient or Family Engine?

 

2GR-FE:

2 - 2nd generation.
GR - Engine family.
F - Economy narrow-valve DOHC.
E - Electronic fuel injection.

 

^ thanks why did they use the F for that?

 

It seem they just assign the F cause they need to assign one... ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toyota_engines

 

These 2GR engines have so much potential..

 

i noticed slightly slower acceleration with regular octane fuel. When I was running premium fuel I could go full throttle at 35mph and lose traction with traction control on. I was very impressed on the performance, I originally wanted the Lexus ISF but it didn't have the cargo room that I needed and the backseat was too small. Went with the camry, it's not as quiet as a Lexus but the interior and the performance is about the closest thing you'll get to a Lexus ISF in the toyota line.

 

^ Same engine doesn't mean same ECU. Are Toyota and Lexus share the same ECU with the same timing table?

 

They don't necessarily share the exact same ECU, but the ECU for the cars with the 2GR can adjust the tables for premium.

 

^ are you saying the ECU in the Camry right now can adjust for Premium fuel? where is your source for you to make this statement?

 

Where is your source saying that it doesn't benefit from premium fuel? See how it goes both ways

I get around 4-5mpg better with premium fuel compared to regular fuel. That is back to back tanks. That difference in mileage shows that the engine does benefit from premium fuel. You can read a lot of other posts on this forum as well of people who report better mileage using premium fuel.

My local Toyota dealership says that all 2GR-FE's benefit from premium fuel, no matter if its in a Sienna or an ES350. While each vehicle has a different ECU, they are all tuned the same. The differences in ECU are mostly just by name, and for none fuel management related things like shift points.

Several people who have done the 2GR-FE swap into MR2s reported no difference in performance between using the Camry ECU program or the ES350 ECU program. The only difference they are finding out is in the name.

 

I don't think the fuel matters much on new engines with clean combustion chambers. But never underestimate the effect on detonation from the buildup of carbon deposits. I would be very surprised if a middle age (60K miles or better) engine did not go into knock retard on hot days with regular fuel under full throttle. On a middle age or older engine I suspect quite strongly the maximum power would be from premium fuel in hot weather at low elevations. Whether it could be felt in a fast car w/ V6 is another matter.

 

When Chuck Norris drives a 2GR-FE powered soapbox derby racer he can beat SR-71 Blackbirds in the air.

 

Is this the tuning the "learning" that everyone refers to that happens within the first 1500 miles? (or when you unplug the battery). Or is that something totally different?

 

I get around 4-5mpg better with premium fuel compared to regular fuel. That is back to back tanks. That difference in mileage shows that the engine does benefit from premium fuel.

howdy Chris.
We argued about same thing before but want to add something.
I know more than few 3.5 V-6 powered late model Toyota owners and none of them achieved such improvement in MPG using premium.
Let say average 3.5 camry MPG is around 25 MPG, so 4-5 MPG improvement equals to 15-20% !
Don’t you think Toyota wouldn’t recommend using premium just to put untouchable for competitors MPG numbers next to MSRP?
why they didn't programm ECU's in 4 cyl toytas same way (I'm sure it possible) so they can get 20% better MPG too? 2.5 camry would be making 42MPG on hwy!
it sure gonna be fringing awesome if camry would be making per gallon as much as civic or cruze.
You all saying that 4 cyl ECU does not adjust to premium. But for some reason all my 4 cyl Camrys and even my friends corolla feels bit more powerful and more responsive on premium, but increscent in MPG is very slim to none.

V-6 camry with 26 city 35hwy will be looking much better than 21/30.
Back to 2011-2012 ES 350. They switched from premium to regular gas, but did it affect MPG?
I know 2012 es rated at 19-28 on regular and 2010 es 19-27 on premium fuel.
this days everyone looking at MPG numbers and no premium car buyer will check fuel grade requirements, so higher MPG would attract many more potential buyers than lowering fuel grade.
Just my 2 cents.

 

howdy Chris.
We argued about same thing before but want to add something.
I know more than few 3.5 V-6 powered late model Toyota owners and none of them achieved such improvement in MPG using premium.
Let say average 3.5 camry MPG is around 25 MPG, so 4-5 MPG improvement equals to 15-20% !
Don’t you think Toyota wouldn’t recommend using premium just to put untouchable for competitors MPG numbers next to MSRP?
why they didn't programm ECU's in 4 cyl toytas same way (I'm sure it possible) so they can get 20% better MPG too? 2.5 camry would be making 42MPG on hwy!
it sure gonna be fringing awesome if camry would be making per gallon as much as civic or cruze.
You all saying that 4 cyl ECU does not adjust to premium. But for some reason all my 4 cyl Camrys and even my friends corolla feels bit more powerful and more responsive on premium, but increscent in MPG is very slim to none.

V-6 camry with 26 city 35hwy will be looking much better than 21/30.
Back to 2011-2012 ES 350. They switched from premium to regular gas, but did it affect MPG?
I know 2012 es rated at 19-28 on regular and 2010 es 19-27 on premium fuel.
this days everyone looking at MPG numbers and no premium car buyer will check fuel grade requirements, so higher MPG would attract many more potential buyers than lowering fuel grade.
Just my 2 cents.

On 87 Octane I averaged 22mpg between several tanks. With Shell V-Power 93 Octane I have been averaging 26.5mpg. That is a 4.5mpg increase, which is why I said 4-5mpg. Sometimes it could be closer to 4, sometimes it could be closure to 5. I was just guesstimating.

Whether or not other people get the same gains doesn't matter to me. That is why I tell people to do their own math to see if a higher octane fuel will give them a big enough boost in MPG to see if it is cheaper. If it doesn't, then they can keep on using 87 Octane. But the people who say premium is a waste of money without even testing it out themselves are just :facepalm:.

For my climate, driving route, and driving style premium saves me money. If I change something in my driving habits that makes premium no longer cheaper, then I will switch back to regular.

It may be different in other locations, but here the price difference between 87 and 91 Octane is 10 cents, while the difference between 87 and 93 Octane is 30 cents. Using 91 Octane if you only got a gain of 1mpg over 87 octane, you would still save money over using 87 Octane, and if you only got a gain of 2mpg using 93 Octane you would also still be saving money.

As an example.

87 Octane @ $3.49 per gallon you average 22mpg. Take 22 and divide by 3.49 and you get the distance you can travel, in miles, for every dollar in gas you spend. In this example that would be 6.30372493 miles you can travel for every dollar of gas.

91 Octane @ $3.59 per gallon you average 23mpg. Take 23 and divide by 3.59 and you get the distance you can travel, in miles, for every dollar in gas you spend. In This example that would be 6.40668524 miles you can travel for every dollar of gas. 6.40668524 > 6.30372493

93 Octane @ $3.79 per gallon you average 24mpg. Take 24 and divide by 3.79 and you get the distance you can travel, in miles, for every dollar in gas you spend. In this example that would be 6.33245383 miles you can travel for every dollar of gas. 6.33245383 > 6.30372493

See how you only need a small gain in mileage to be able to break even or even start to save money when running on higher octane? And the higher the increase in gas mileage, the greater your savings will be.

But of course, most people just see the price as the pump and don't think about the difference in gas mileage. And that is why Toyota lists 87 octane as the recommended lowest octane rating because of people who only look at the price at the pump.

What I think car companies should do is list different mileage ratings for each car using different octane ratings. As an example:

2016 Toyota Camry
30 City/40 Hwy using 87 Octane
35 City/45Hwy using 93 Octane

Something like that would be great, but of course it won't happen as it would cost the car companies more money to do that.

EDIT: If you think my math is wrong, here is a handy dandy calculator you can use to make calculating fuel cost easier. The calculator also agrees with me. http://www.roadtripamerica.com/fuel-cost-calculator.php You can plug in your local fuel prices and difference mileage ratings to determine how much better mileage you need to get for higher octane fuel to break even or save you money.

 

The 2GR-FE works best with premium fuel PERIOD.. Toyota will not admit this because there is a possibility of losing some customers..

Not only does PULP have higher octane rating, but also has some additives to improve combustion and clean the engine..

 

But the ECU doens't have any way of reading octane of the fuel. It just retards timing based on signals from the knock detector. It could possibly under some circumstances, do something else I suppose such as richen mixture slightly at full throttle, or adjust valve timing some. But I have not read of those knock sensor modifications. Just ignition timing.

But lacking a knock signal, it isn't going to do anything, and no matter what octane fuel being used the power will be close to the same provided there is no knock.

I think one of the reasons this topic seems to generate such debate is the knock is only present under some circumstances. I posted previously a big reason for knock, carbon buildup over time. Other reasons could be various sensors could be creeping a bit from their new spec as they age.

Basically if the knock sensor is causing timing to be pulled significantly, then the engine will make more power with higher octane fuel. If not it won't. Doesn't Scan Gauge show knock sensor data?

Like I posted earlier, I'd say a new engine with shiny (heat absorbing)combustion chambers won't knock on much of anything. A limber 75,000 mile engine with a thin layer of insulating (and compression ratio increasing) carbon may knock in certain circumstances on low octane fuel. This is the place I think you'd pick up a bit of power with premium.

I have never seen significant fuel economy benefit from premium fuel fwiw.

 

But the ECU doens't have any way of reading octane of the fuel. It just retards timing based on signals from the knock detector.

That is how it can adjust between different fuel octanes. It doesn't literaly taste the gas and go "Oh, this taste like premium".

It could possibly under some circumstances, do something else I suppose such as richen mixture slightly at full throttle, or adjust valve timing some. But I have not read of those knock sensor modifications. Just ignition timing.

It changes a lot of things. Read the wiki article I posted above. Also, I don't think anyone said anything about knock sensor modifications

But lacking a knock signal, it isn't going to do anything, and no matter what octane fuel being used the power will be close to the same provided there is no knock.

Of course not, but all modern cars have knock sensors.

I think one of the reasons this topic seems to generate such debate is the knock is only present under some circumstances. I posted previously a big reason for knock, carbon buildup over time. Other reasons could be various sensors could be creeping a bit from their new spec as they age.

This debate isn't because of that at all. If your V6 or I4 Camry is getting knocking on 87 octane, you have a mechanical problem that should be looked at.

The rest of the post doesn't really apply here. (At least I don't see anything that does)

 

The rest of the post doesn't really apply here. (At least I don't see anything that does)

Sure it does, it gives a good general look at the works of the function of knock retard. I stand by my statement a new 2grfe is not experiencing much/any knock retard. An older one may be.

The engine has to actually knock for the sensor to sense it.

 

Sure it does, it gives a good general look at the works of the function of knock retard. I stand by my statement a new 2grfe is not experiencing much knock retard. An older one may be.

Ok, that is true, the 2GR-FE does not experience much KR which is a good thing.

Just as a FYI for others reading this who just want some more information.The VVT, fuel injection, and other modern engine enhancements help with eliminating knock retard on lower octane. That is why cars today can run at a higher compression ratio on lower octane than cars in the past.

 

As one who grew up on the days of wedge chamber V8s, I find this subject fascinating.

Here's a few reasons why modern engines can run such high compression with today's fuels:

1. Aluminum heads, absorb heat,
2. Smaller cylinder bores burn fuel normally before knock can occur (no 4.3 inch bores here)
3. Four valve heads w/ vvt, swirl, and can control cylinder filling
4. Centrally located spark plug, shorter flame front.
5, Knock detectors
6 Direct injection (not applicable here)
7 Quite rich power enrichment under open loop conditions.
8 Much more precise and greater engine control.
9. Compared to engines of my youth, much better cylinder to cylinder distribution. No lean cylinder, even cylinder contribution.

 

Nosssssssssssssssss :d

 

:thumbsup:

if only we can have this kind of comparison instead of "opinions" about ppl feel 5hp and 5mpg change. :chug:

 

Not that I know of, but the car has only been out for 2 months.

If I had the money I could take my Grandparents 2012 XLE V6 and dyno it on 87 then on 93, but as it is right now with being in school full time and with all of my medical bills I can barely afford to pay for the gas to take me to class.

I'll take donations from TN members that I will put towards paying for the use of a dyno meter

 

^ here is why I said mpg is also "opinion". MPG depend on a lot and one of them is how hard to step on the gas paddle. And how hard to press on the gas paddle depend on your mood too. A simple decision to pass a slower car, or to go to drive through instead of turn off the car and go inside to eat, etc... they all affect mpg. Too many uncertain variables. So you see, a 5mpg fluctuation is normal.

The only way to be sure is a controlled environment.

 

You don't need to be in a laboratory controlled environment to see improvements in gas mileage.

This is how I calculated the difference.

Before I started I was already running 93 Octane Shell V-Power, so I ran that empty, filled it up with 87 Octane, ran that empty, and then filled it up again with 87 Octane before I started my test.

For 1 month I used 87 Octane from Shell. I drove the same route every day to and from the University. I used an app on my android phone to keep track of my mileage. I drove as conservatively as I could. On the highways I would set the cruise control to the speed limit, and stay in the right lane. If I needed to pass someone going slower, I would only pass them if I would be able to without going above the speed limit, and without slowing down the passing lane either and creating a long line of cars tailgating each other. For surface streets I would keep the rpms between 2-2.5 thousand. And frankly, with the surface streets around here being only 30mph a lot of time I could easily keep the rpms below 2 thousand. The only time I would get on the gas pedal is if I needed to quickly speed up to safely merge on the highway.

After that I put in 93 Octane V-Power, drove the tank until it was empty and then filled it up again with V-Power before doing it all over again for another month.

I then compared the fuel mileage averages between the two months. On the month I used 87 Octane I averaged 22mpg, on the month I used 93 Octane I averaged 26.5mpg.

Now, of course I didn't drive exactly the same way between each month, as that is impossible. If I did the test again I would come up with slightly different numbers. But I kept it as close as possible. Even with the variations in driving, that still wouldn't equal 4.5mpg.

On 87 Octane I had to get gas 5 times that month, while on V-Power I only have to get gas once a week. (I have been consistently getting gas on Friday nights after my night class at the same gas station using the same pump) The only time that my tank won't last me a week is if I do a lot more driving on the weekends than I usually do.

And as I have said before, you may not need to even get as big of a gain as 4.5mpg to start seeing savings. I showed that with the prices around where I live, you only need to have an improvement of 1-2mpg to start saving money depending on if you get super or premium over regular.

 

Keep on topic everyone, please.