I too have a friend that is a fan of GM, and he just bought a 1990 chevy camaro. Now, although I like the car he keeps telling me that his car has almost 300 horsepower on a stock 305 motor. The only thing he has done to it is put on a exhaust, so I know for a fact that he is not pushing that kind of power. So anyway, I decided to check the horsepower out for myself and it turns out his engine only put out 170 horsepower stock. When I confronted him with this he kept on telling me that number was lower then the actual horsepwer for insurance reasons. After that I just gave up because he will never tell me the truth, even with all my proof. (rant over)

 

He also didn't believe me that consumer reports rates Toyota well above GM

hmmm. http://ibtimes.com/articles/20070809/buick-lexus-toyota-dependability-honda.htm

 

There is this new guy at my job and he is a GM fan and started getting on Toyota and we got into a bit of an argument. But the guy knew nothing, I told him Toyota had passed up GM to be the largest car maker in world and that GM had been loosing money for years and that Toyota was the most profitable car company. He also didn't believe me that consumer reports rates Toyota well above GM, and finally the guy was so clueless that he thought GM had the #1 selling large truck which Ford has had for years. I got sick of arguing with him so I told him look up the info for himself, later on one of my other co-workers looked up the info and showed it too him and the guy had nothing to say.

I think that guy (and his buddies) posts on toyotanation

Fan

 

Normal stuff. That's like the guy that argued with me that all cars are really only made by 3 companies and that GM owns Toyota.

He proceeded to "prove" this to me by whipping out his cell phone and telling me to call his friend. Because that, apparently, is proof.

 

I too have a friend that is a fan of GM, and he just bought a 1990 chevy camaro. Now, although I like the car he keeps telling me that his car has almost 300 horsepower on a stock 305 motor. The only thing he has done to it is put on a exhaust, so I know for a fact that he pushing that kind of power. So anyway, I decided to check that horsepower out for myself and it turns out his engine only put out 170 horsepower stock. When I confronted him with this he kept on telling me that number was lower then the actual horsepwer for insurance reasons. After that I just gave up because he will never tell me the truth, even with all my proof. (rant over)

Yeah... he needs to throw out that 305 and throw in a 350 or better. :

 

Neither of the 305s available for that year made 200stock. There is no way he is making anything close to 300, unless he did some LT1 part swaps, but even then it wouldn't make near that unless it was the L98.

 

Had to go to a Ford list for proof, but GM still makes the best selling trucks in the US.

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4883

This list shows that the Chevy version is #2 and the GMC version is #12. Combined, since they are both GM trucks the number sold is 776,868 trucks which is more than Ford (725,459). The only reason Ford gets the title every year is that since GM splits their trucks across 2 badges the sales figures won't allow GM to combine the sales of their trucks. If you do the research it wouldn't surprise me to see that GM consistently beats Ford in truck sales throughout history.

 

hmmm. http://ibtimes.com/articles/20070809/buick-lexus-toyota-dependability-honda.htm

That article also lists Cadillac and Mercury as being in the top 5 in reliability...which leads me to not believe it too much

 

I too have a friend that is a fan of GM, and he just bought a 1990 chevy camaro. Now, although I like the car he keeps telling me that his car has almost 300 horsepower on a stock 305 motor. The only thing he has done to it is put on a exhaust, so I know for a fact that he pushing that kind of power. So anyway, I decided to check that horsepower out for myself and it turns out his engine only put out 170 horsepower stock. When I confronted him with this he kept on telling me that number was lower then the actual horsepwer for insurance reasons. After that I just gave up because he will never tell me the truth, even with all my proof. (rant over)

A lower horsepower reported for insurance reasons? That makes no sense what so ever

 

I can find plenty of fan boys who don't know much about their brands. It can be GM, toyota, Ford, Honda etc etc. However from my experience, GM fanboys really annoy me. One of my friends once asked me what car i drive. After he learned it was a toyota i realized he did not like imports at all. To this day he is on my case, however since last year he says toyota is okay since it's almost kind of American now. I also find it amazing how he seems to have driven every single toyota ever made and find flaws that no one has ever found. And here is the thing i have never ever critisized GM in any of our conversations. I just don't see the point. He on the other will try to compare corollas to a Cadillac and what not.
At the same time i have another friend who will tell it to your face that Honda and Toyota do make excellent vehicles, but he also says that he will not abandon the Ford brand.

 

A lower horsepower reported for insurance reasons? That makes no sense what so ever

manufacturers did do this, but i think it was pretty much only done in the 60s when big block motors were in production. fast forward to now, i think its the opposite. most HP numbers are estimates at the crank and not the wheels, and i think they are exaggerated. my camaro is suppose to have 345hp, but i seriously doubt i have that number at the crank.

 

That happens with any fan fan that beleives no matter what, whatever brand they like is the best. It happens with cars, it happens with computers, it happens with shoes, it even happens with hamburgers. I don't think this is anything new. I think the majority of people don't know much about cars, so they beleive what they've been told, or what they want to beleive.
The one that always kills me is when I go to a dealership and the salesman is giving you false information, and a lot of times it's stupid stuff. Like a guy at work said he went and test drove a car and the sales man was saying something about the new 2008 EPA numbers and how they did that because the Asian car companies were cheating at it.
It's also true that some people say stuff like that just to get a rise out of other people, even if they know it's not true, they will say it just to get you worked up.

 

I can find plenty of fan boys who don't know much about their brands. It can be GM, toyota, Ford, Honda etc etc. However from my experience, GM fanboys really annoy me. One of my friends once asked me what car i drive. After he learned it was a toyota i realized he did not like imports at all. To this day he is on my case, however since last year he says toyota is okay since it's almost kind of American now. I also find it amazing how he seems to have driven every single toyota ever made and find flaws that no one has ever found. And here is the thing i have never ever critisized GM in any of our conversations. I just don't see the point. He on the other will try to compare corollas to a Cadillac and what not.
At the same time i have another friend who will tell it to your face that Honda and Toyota do make excellent vehicles, but he also says that he will not abandon the Ford brand.

And that's just it. There are some people that never want to see the truth/proof so they act like it's not even there.

 

^^ Actually, a stock 1999 SS Camaro's only had 320 hp, but did have 345 ft*lb. 0-60 in 5.3, 1/4 mile in 13.7 @105. . . . .with a trap speed of 105mph, I'd say 320hp is an accurate number. . . . Maybe you’re thinking of the SLP tuned 2002 Camaro SS. It had 345 hp, iirc.

As far as clueless car fans, every manufacture has their share of dummies. On average, I find domestic fans to be much more knowledgeable than import fans, however.

 

On a GM board somewhere right now (hypathetically), there's a guy that started a thread about an idiot Toyota fan at work who know's nothing about cars...

:lol:

 

And here is the thing i have never ever critisized GM in any of our conversations. I just don't see the point.

I seriously don't bother in any of that sort of discussion whether it be GM, Ford, or most commonly in my case Honda. If I enjoy the car I have, only I care about it what I think of it. Don't care if others think its an ancient Camry, infact I like how so many underrate it. Its more satisfying when they realize its so much better than they were expecting.

 

However from my experience, GM fanboys really annoy me.

Yes, some of them are, not because of their love for GM, but because they love to stick it in other people's faces, even when the others don't give a rat's ass.

At the same time i have another friend who will tell it to your face that Honda and Toyota do make excellent vehicles, but he also says that he will not abandon the Ford brand.

At least Ford can pride on winning Le Mans 24 hours overall 4 TIMES (even though it's all before the 70's)!! WTF can GM pride on? Not much to be honest. Until the Corvette (or some other GM developed LMP car) can win that famous endurance race outright, there really isn't much to brag about.

 

GM racing:

Le Mans-
51 race wins (1999 through 2006)
34 1-2 finishes
5 24 hours of Le Mans class wins
4 Sebring 12-hour class wins
Longest GT1 Le Mans winning streak (12 in a row)
Most polls GT1 Le Mans
Undefeated season, 2004 (ALMS and 24 of Le Mans)

http://www.corvetteracing.com/

NHRA-
Way too many records to list. From FWD Ecotec powed Cobalts, to 500+ cubic inch Pro Stockers. . . .GM is the most successful manufacture in NHRA history.

Since 1964, there has only been 4 times a GM division has not won the NHRA Manufactures Cup. That’s 42 years, and only 4 GM losses. . . . .

http://www.nhra.com/apcm/templates/about.asp?articleid=3272&zoneid=101

NASCAR-
GM holds the most manufacture wins here as well. Too many records to list. . .

GT Series racing-
GTO.R won the Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series.

SCCA-
121 SCCA championships since 1956
51 consecutive years of GM’s winning streak in SCCA

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=46&docid=31010

Formula D-
Runner up in 2006. First year GM was entered.

GM and racing are synonymous, to say GM has nothing to be proud of with regard to racing is ignorant. From purpose built racecars (NASCAR, NHRA), to Tube chassis production based power-plants (Le Mans prepped Corvette and CTS-V, GT Series GTO.R), to factory direct showroom stock bruisers (SCCA Solstice and Cobalt SS). . . . .GM is in, and has won many different racing series’.

Please let me know if there is another racing series you are interested in, I’m sure GM has won there too. . . .

 

i feel u i get into that All THE TIME TRUST ME BRO LOL

 

He also didn't believe me that consumer reports rates Toyota well above GM

All I gotta say about Consumer Reports is that their drop in subscriptions over the last decade (down to 4 million from 5 million) is a good indicator that their testing methods are losing relevancy. Most manufacturers now tout JD Power ratings rather than CR, and JD Powers ranks GM fairly high in some segments. CR's latest full-size truck comparison fobble shows why people are losing trust in them as a publication.

Your friend could have easily pulled up the latest JD Powers 3-year reliability rankings as a counter-argument.

 

All I gotta say about Consumer Reports is that their drop in subscriptions over the last decade (down to 4 million from 5 million) is a good indicator that their testing methods are losing relevancy.

Ha, that's funny.

When Consumer Reports recommends every single Toyota product or any other product, often the information is on the internet within seconds. You don't need to buy the magazine, just do a web search.

Occam's Razor. Look it up.

Fan

 

I thought you quit last week. . . . .or was that GMengineer that quit. . . .

Anyhow, welcome back.

On topic.

Fan, please explain your reference to Occam's Razor and how it relates to Consumer's Report. By your presentation, it almost seems as if you think that CR is the "simplest solution". . . .however, in actuality many see them as cluttered and highly inconsistent with their ratings (to the point of biased).

As stated above, the latest Full Size Truck comparison shows they obviously do not abide by the Occam's Razor philosophy (All new Tundra is rated reliable and a best pick, yet none of its parts have ever been used in a Toyota vehicle, ever. Meanwhile, GM's new trucks are not rated due to no data being present on their 9+ year old LS1 based engine, or their 15+ year old 4l60E transmission, etc). If "all things were equal" (i.e. Occam's Razor), then one would think that both the Tundra and the GM twins would both get the "no data available" designation, and neither would be a best pick. . . . .However, CR did use a multiplier (Occam's Razor) to justify picking the Tundra, and that multiplier was in the form of "predicted reliability", referencing Toyota's past as their reasoning. . . . .yet (as stated earlier), none of these parts have EVER been in a Toyota vehicle, EVER. . . . .

Care to explain?

 

Fan, please explain your reference to Occam's Razor

In refrence to MC's hypothesis that people stopped reading CR because it's testing methods are "losing relavancy". This is not an observable phenominon from his veiwpoint (or probably any viewpoint, unless it has been researched) therefore becomes a complicated hypothesis. The hypothesis that the Internet has lowered print media readership is observable and has been observed (do a google search), making it a much more likely to be true.

Fan

 

Ahh, so it's not CR's methodology, but rather CR's subscription decline that you were referring to. . . .

My apologies.

 

I do think that CR brings some value to the consumer, but if this is the case (that the new Tundra was rated a best buy and most reliable without any long-term testing), it poses a very legitimate question. I mean really, for all the talk of how scientific and statistical CR is, they should not be giving out any ratings based on reputation. :dunno: I mean, you certainly expect that kind of stuff from an automotive magazine like Car and Driver, Motor Trend, etc. But CR readers should be more critical. It isn't supposed to be an opinionated magazine.