I would leave it.... I don't know why everyone is so up in arms about changing the fluid in the CVT. Yes, it will need to be done at some point, but in the mean time, it's not really all that necessary. Toyota wouldn't have gone with a CVT in the corolla (flagship in all things cheap and bland for the average consumer who likely doesn't know what a transmission is, let alone a CVT vs. Automatic), if they knew it wasn't going to work for a long period of time.

I remember looking at a 2012 Tacoma when I really couldn't afford one, and I asked about the trans oil, the dealer I was at said Toyota doesn't even want someone to touch it until the 100k mark. You can void the warranty of the transmission otherwise. Now do I believe the guy? To an extent, but I know the engineers at Toyota have done their homework. CVT's have been in vehicles for years in other markets.

The issue I see here is that if switching the oil causes a fault in the transmission, it's going to be on you, even if you instruct the dealer or mechanic to do so since it is not a regular service in the predetermined schedule.

For me, I'm going to drive my car until it is either paid off or worth more than I owe on it, and if it's still performing okay, I might keep it, but if my needs in a vehicle change, I will likely trade back to a truck or possibly something where I can row my own gears. But in the mean time, I'm not going to even worry about the CVT.

 

This is the thing that absolutely, utterly mystifies me. WHAT ON EARTH ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO????????? With absolutely, positively NO INFORMATION WHATSOEVER from the manufacturer, all we have are a few thousand guesses by "people on the Internet," with no way to know if any of them have a real clue or not about what they're saying. And for every piece of advice to change the fluid more often, there are stories from other folks about how changing the fluid ruined their transmissions, and they had to replace them shortly after a messed-up fluid change. Then there are independent garages that push and push and push and push that you need to have your transmission flushed, until you let them go ahead and do it -- and then they look and find no means of hooking their machines up to the transmissions. "Changing the transmission fluid" is absolutely THE most frustrating issue I have with modern cars these days. I wind up being virtually PETRIFIED to do ANYTHING.

 

As of right now its being left alone but I would rather learn before anything needs to be done, and as far as voiding warranties im a pro at throwing those out the door as soon as I get the car. Money isnt really the issue here im more in it for the knowledge of the car. Im not okay with just driving something, I need to get hands on and learn everything I can.

 

Im not okay with just driving something, I need to get hands on and learn everything I can.

That's a good way to look at it for sure. I would say that unfortunately, Toyota has given us a car with a "throw away" kind of feeling to it. It seems like they will want to just replace the whole CVT when the fluid's time is up...

 

Also as thoots said why not get everyone on the same page here and try to get some factual data instead of some joe schmo's saying what they "think" is the best option for transmission fluid. I can't for the life of me believe that with all the engineering and testing toyota does nothing is out there. I may not be a hundred percent worried about it but maybe the guy next door is, this isnt really a discussion for me personally its for everyones benefit.

Opinions dont matter in the end its the data that does.

 

Toyota dealers can connect a sensor to the CVT to measure the fluid's condition, to see if it needs changed. I think this will come up at a certain mileage interval on your car, as a maintenance code. So then have them check it and see its condition. It takes the guesswork out of whether to do it or not. I would NOT do it until necessary because it is an expensive and kind of delicate procedure, there have already been reports of dealers messing up the fluid change, putting in conventional AT fluid, etc.

 

I agree with dlayman.

Points that bother me:

Toyota never claims their car will last for 200K miles, but ...

The maintenance guide only goes to 120K miles. That means (according to Toyota), you don't need to change or inspect the fluid within 120K miles.

The problem is you might be supposed to change it at 121K miles, but the book doesn't mention that.

If the book either had an entry for:
- At 150K miles, and every 10K miles thereafter, have the dealer inspect the CVT condition and replace when CVT fluid life is below 10%. After replacement, have condition checked at the dealer after 50K miles and every 10K miles thereafter.

- The CVT fluid condition should be monitored and checked in accordance with the maintenance due code, which normally comes up at 150K miles. Have the dealer check the fluid condition when this code appears.

- The CVT is a sealed unit and the CVT fluid is considered lifetime and no maintenance is required.

But it doesn't say anything.

I don't necessarily agree with them, but the 2014 Hyundai Elantra (conventional ATX) Owners manual only goes up to 150K miles, but after 150K miles, under normal maintenance, it says:
No check, No service required
❑ Automatic transaxle fluid (if equipped)
Under severe usage, it says to replace every 60K miles - Driving condition: A, C, E, F, G, I
A- Repeatedly driving short distances of less than 5 miles
(8 km) in normal temperature or less than 10 miles (16 km)
in freezing temperature
C-Driving on rough, dusty, muddy, unpaved, graveled or saltspread
roads
E-Driving in sandy areas
F - Driving in heavy traffic area over 90°F (32°C)
G- Driving on uphill, downhill, or mountain road
I -Driving as a patrol car, taxi, other commercial use or vehicle
towing

Most people would be in the normal usage range, and if I had a 2014 Elantra and planned to keep it, I would probably change the fluid at 80, or 100, or 120K miles - I wouldn't run for 150K miles, and I certainly wouldn't try to get 300K miles without changing it b/c the book said I could, but ...

My point is at least Hyundai gives clear guidance on what to expect. Toyco doesn't. They don't say that you never need to change the CVT fluid, but they don't give an interval when you should either - so, as mentioned, you are left guessing and/or listening to the dealer service advisors - who might or might not know the correct answer.

 

- The CVT is a sealed unit and the CVT fluid is considered lifetime and no maintenance is required.

Where is the manual does it say the fluid is lifetime and never needs to be changed?

Also the CVT is not sealed. It has a drain tube that rises a few inches above the bottom of the pan to automatically set the fluid level. Refilling the CVT is actually easier than a traditional transmission.

 

Toyota does give us a little nugget in the owners manual.

CVT Fluid capacity 7.9 QT (7.9 L 6.6 lmp QT)
Fluid type - Toyota Genuine CVTF FE

■Continuously variable transaxle fluid type
Using continuously variable transaxle fluid other than “Toyota Genuine
CVTF FE” may cause deterioration in shift quality, locking up of the transmission
accompanied by vibration and, ultimately, damage to the vehicle’s
transmission.

That's it.

 

That's my point - they tell you not to use any other fluid in the transmission, but you can't add fluid yourself and they don't tell you when (if ever) to have it changed.

(Although if they intended it to be permanently sealed and never changed, the warning wouldn't be there, b/c there would be no possible way that you could run the incorrect fluid in it).

 

My fear is they left out the schedule for the CVT for a reason to do with LAW. If nothing is mentioned it might negate the ability of people or groups of people to file suit against Toyota. I'm not a lawyer. I'd like to hear from one.

Does not mentioning a schedule protect Toyota from certain types of lawsuits?

Did Toyota just chicken out and not use a schedule because they don't know?

Either way it's kinda scary. Unless it's some sort of new nano based material.....I don't think it's going to last 200,000 - 300,000 miles. The distance a lot of Toyota users drive their cars.

 

My fear is they left out the schedule for the CVT for a reason to do with LAW. If nothing is mentioned it might negate the ability of people or groups of people to file suit against Toyota. I'm not a lawyer. I'd like to hear from one.

Does not mentioning a schedule protect Toyota from certain types of lawsuits?

I'm not a lawyer either - but ... Toyota has never said the transmission would go for 200K miles. The powertrain warranty is 60K miles and they sell extended warranties for up to 125K miles.

It the CVT makes it that long, that is all they care about (legally, at least).

If anything, not having the info in the manual hurts Toyota's case, b/c if the CVT fails at 59K miles, Toyco no longer has an option to say "Where is your documentation that you inspected and replaced the fluid at 20K miles and 40K miles like we told you to in order to maintain your warranty and have this covered."

Did Toyota just chicken out and not use a schedule because they don't know?

Doubtful - from what I understand, the CVT has been used in other markets for almost 20-years ...

What would be interesting would be to see what Toyota's recommendations and experiences would be on the older model Toyota's that use the CVT ...

Either way it's kinda scary. Unless it's some sort of new nano based material.....I don't think it's going to last 200,000 - 300,000 miles. The distance a lot of Toyota users drive their cars.

And nobody expects it to (although Hyundai seems to think its ATX fluid will under normal usage) ...

What I would like to see is SOME published interval for recommended CVT fluid condition check and/or replacement.

 

Every time I buy a car, I generally don't expect to keep it past 100,000 miles (regardless what kind of transmission it has). The biggest thing that affects oil is heat. I'm thinking that for those that live in areas that have very cold winter seasons, the rapid heating and cooling of the engine is probably the biggest thing that affects the longevity of a CVT transmission, versus someone who lives in an area with moderate climate conditions that don't have to deal with very hot summers or very cold winters.

 

That rules me out.

My area gets to up to -10 F in winter and 105 F in summer. Most of the highs in summer are about 95 F and lows gets into the 15 F or less in winter.

We also live at 5600 FT above sea level so our HP is reduced. I don't know what it would feel like to have all my HP.

Large range of temps. Yet people here buy used Toyota and Honda vehicles and run them until at least 250,000-300,000 miles all the time.

 

I'm almost sure I saw something in the car's documentation about when to inspect the fluid if driving under severe conditions (particularly dusty roads). That would be a good guideline to follow, unless I'm mistaken that its listed, even if you don't drive under those conditions.

 

Same recurrent worries… Same known and unknown answers about “lifetime fluid”!

Actually, we know what the experts say: both Toyota and dealers say “no particular maintenance needed”.
Kind of an act of faith in Aisin/Toyota conception and execution, though.

Experience from other manufacturers tends to show that CVT fluid degradation is rather the sign of an underlying problem in the transmission than a problem with the fluid itself.
I think that’s the key to understand the meaning of “lifetime fluid”.

Honda Jazz (Asian Fit) had improper fluid, Jatco/Nissan original firmware would let the fluid overheat and cheap material in Fiat/GM Saturn would contaminate the fluid with metal scraps…
See how those companies are the ones prescribing fluid changes (with Subaru, but only if towing, which Toyota doesn’t recommend)?

We usually say that “more frequent fluid changes hurt nothing but your wallet”.
In the case of the CVT, beside hurting a bit more your wallet and requiring a trained technician, the result might be to either reveal or hide an underlying problem with no other benefits.

Having the mechanic test the fluid would be a simpler way to assess the condition of the transmission (Subaru has this in their schedule, nothing prevent Toyota owners to ask for it also !).
But even then the result would be either a “OK” or “too late”.

As far as replacing the hole unit, it does comes cheaper (not cheap) than rebuilt your own unit as this is highly specialized work that most shop don’t do themselves even on traditional AT.
Industrially rebuilt units will be more and more available though!

 

It is vague in the manual (2014 Corolla)...

Every 30K miles, it says "Inspect: Transmission Fluid or Oil" - Doesn't say if it means manual transmission fluid or oil or ATX or CVT. And typically I think of that as checking the dipstick and making sure the fluid is not burnt, but since there is no dipstick on the CVT.

Under Special Operating conditions - at 30K it says "Replace manual transmission oil".

It says the same thing at 90K. At 60K and 120K - under Special - it omits the manual "Replace transmision oil" - which I guess includes the CVT. (???)

It also says:
Automatic Transmission Fluid or
Manual Transmission Oil
Inspect or replace at specified intervals.
When performing inspections, check each
component for signs of leakage. If you
discover any leakage, have it repaired by a
qualified technician immediately.

The issue is the L model had an automatic transmission and the L and S could have a manual. There is no mention of CVT anywhere - so you are left guessing if "transmission oil" also included CVT fluid or not.

And again - 60K for severe service of a conventional ATX and no specified interval but 30K condition checks seems reasonable (especially since Hyundai has about the same intervals), but 60K under severe service seems a bit low for a CVT combined with the fact that it is a bit misleading to call out an inspection for a sealed unit with no mentioned of how the inspection should be performed.

 

Toyota could use that language to say they specify 30k inspect intervals for the CVT fluid under severe conditions, since it is an all-inclusive statement. I think having it checked by the dealer at 30k would be very prudent and conservative - you would probably never experience a fluid-related failure if you did that. I don't know how expensive it is to have it checked. I imagine its not super cheap as it requires sophisticated and specialized equipment and the dealer is going to want to recoup that cost. My understanding is that you can get a % lifetime left with this. You could get an initial 30k check and use that to extrapolate when you might get to 30-50%. I would change it at that point, probably being conservative.

I was on another board and a Nissan owner still had 75% lifetime left at 60k. That's fairly encouraging.

 

And implies the no-check required might be accurate for Toyota - i.e.

75% left at 60K
50% left at 120K
25% left at 180K

At 240K, the fluid would expire, but realistically that is beyond the average life of most cars anyway ...

 

I so want to see one of these CVT's put through hell and see how it responds or atleast see what the breaking point of this transmission is.

 

You know Toyota and independent testers have done this. We just need the results. Even since they started putting them in US cars independent tests have been done. I assume it survived or we would have heard about it......unless they've been paid off:wink:

It's just to high profile (the Corolla) to screw up that bad. Toyota would never take the risk. I would imagine you could put the current CVT through a lot. AS much as a normal auto trans.

I have heard talk of CVT outlasting normal automatics in torture tests. That would be a reason Toyota feels comfortable not putting a maintenance schedule in the manual. They must have a lot of faith in these. I worry too, but I think I worried too much. It's the #1 selling auto in the world. Toyota would have simply left the normal auto in if there was concern.

I also know how you feel. I would love to see someones results after putting the CVT through HELL.

 

While I do think the CVT will be fine, I think its a real stretch to say any automaker wouldn't put a dud of a component in a major-selling car. Typically not on purpose, but in real life the components fail in ways that didn't show up on testing. Toyota and Lexus put out a TON of sludging engines in late nineties early 2000's. Toyota has had to replace a LOT of truck frames due to dangerous catastrophic frame rust, Subaru is going through major oil consumption problems across the board and have a history of expensive head gasket failures, Honda has has trouble with automatic transmissions in some models, and horrible Accord brake problems for a while, Nissan has had a lot of CVT problems. So this DOES happen. That's why a some time in actual use by American / Canadian drivers is needed before we realy know for sure how components will hold up in real life.

 

I brought my car in for service today and I asked the service adviser when to change the transmission fluid. The guy said it's a world class fluid or something like that and it's good for 90,000 miles.

 

And he quite likely didn't know what he was talking about - there has been at least one member who had the wrong fluid installed in the CVT by a Toyota dealer.

 

CVT Fluid Replacement Procedure

There is actually an official procedure to replace the CVT fluid.

This is however in Russian and applies to the K311 transmission used in that market but I reckon it's the same for the K313 or other Toyota CVT transmission models.

It's not as straightforward as a drain and fill. Fluid temp needs to be calibrated using Techstream/GTS to monitor live CVT fluid temp.

Google translate away!
http://corolla-club.ru/doc1/1cef0bce9f452d8da53d1be5bbc4850b.html

 

Nissans are changing every 30K.
http://www.nissanclub.com/forums/engine-performance-2007-2012/309332-cvt-thread.html

There's no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, all degrade with time, wearing of components, and thermal changes.

I would change in the 60-90K range if I had one.

After I changed my AT fluid on my 2001 Corolla at 150K, it shifted like new (Full flush, not drain/fill).

 

Nissans are changing every 30K.
http://www.nissanclub.com/forums/engine-performance-2007-2012/309332-cvt-thread.html
There's no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, all degrade with time, wearing of components, and thermal changes.
I would change in the 60-90K range if I had one.
After I changed my AT fluid on my 2001 Corolla at 150K, it shifted like new (Full flush, not drain/fill).

Don't forget that the first Jatco/Nissan units were doomed from day one with a bad heating control firmware. Their fluid got contaminated quite soon in the life of the car, with consequences on the unit. Hence the 30K recommendation.

Though it would be expected that fluid eventually breaks, all signs from others manufacturers so far point in the same direction : a contaminated fluid is always the sign of an underlying problem in the CVT. Hence the equivocal meaning of "lifetime".

 

I looked at the service schedule. And it seems the "Maintenance Service" covers it as the general description of this service includes the following:

Inspect automatic transmission, manual transmission, hybrid transaxle, differential and transfer case for leaks.

And then there is:

Additional Maintenance Requirements:
• Inspect brakes, steering and suspension components every
6 months/8,000 km.

• Inspect driveshaft boots, propeller shaft and body/chassis bolts,
every 6 months/8,000 km.

• Change manual transmission, transfer case and differential fluids
every 24 months/32,000 km.

• Replace automatic transmission fluid every 72 months/96,000 km
(for condition # 2 above, only).

--------------

No granted, the Corolla technically has three transmissions available, Manual, Auto, and CVT, so you'd think they would update the language of the service schedule to reflect the CVT.

Now I previously owned a 2007 Dodge Caliber with a CVT. The service schedule had the following at 100,000 and 200,000km

Change Automatic Transaxle (CVT) Fluid and Filter.

I had this done obviously at 100,00km and it wasn't cheap. This was one factor in my decision to dump the vehicle at 180,000km as I didn't want to get into that repair bill again!

 

You took that out of context from Reply #8 .

Reply #8 that you quoted was ONE of the options that I would have LIKED to see in the Toyota owners manual.

Hyundai says something similar in their manuals.

Reply #18 is what Toyota actually says: "Replace in accordance with specified intervals." Except there AREN'T any specified intervals. The book goes up to 120K and doesn't mention changing it then or say that you should after that, but doesn't say it isn't required to change it either ...