All good points, although I would have to drive/experience the Crown before I say it's not worth the price bump. Maybe their market research determined that Avalon buyers would accept another Toyota/Lexus replacement like a Camry, ES or some SUV?

 

I don't know Avalon was a bargain for someone that want luxury without screaming i have one and the price was fair, like more expensive than Camry but alot cheaper than Lexus, but now that's not the point with the Crown cause the price different was too little

 

I have no idea what Toyota was thinking. I have a 2016 Avalon, which was supposed to be traded in. However, a bird cracked the windshield, so it was out of commission for about 6 weeks. Luckily, I was able to get my hands on one of the last 2022 Touring Models for MSRP minus $1,000 from Toyota. I had also sold for cash, a 2017 Subaru BRZ for exactly what I paid 5 years ago, which Ironically has changed hands twice and the dealer in GA is still trying to sell it 6 months later. The issue is that they jumped the gun on the price, and have had no luck. I really lucked out on this one, as now the car is probably worth $3,000-$5,000 less than what it was 6 months ago.

Now back to the 2022 Avalon. This car is pearl white and is truly amazing. The problem is that The Avalon was competing with the LEXUS ES350 and they lease really well, compared to Toyota. I think Toyota should have stayed only producing the Touring Model and the Limited Model, and this is where they went wrong. The only item truly missing from the 2022 Touring Model is the rear sun shade.

 

It's simple really. The Avalon didn't sell well enough... so Toyota dumped it. They decided to replace it with something else entirely... and my guess is that the Crown won't sell well either... but I'm willing to give Toyota some credit for trying something new and outside the box...

I really look forward to seeing one in person and maybe even driving one. My guess is that it's either going to be significantly better than the Avalon- or it's going to be a whole lotta 'meh'. The Hybrid Max powertrain in the Platinum is probably going to be great... but again... as someone pointed out... it runs $55,000... which buys you one heck of a Lexus ES350. But that ES350 is going to be slower, less fuel efficient, lower to the ground (IMO the Avalon and ES350's weakest area), and a bit dated in terms of interior.

One of my coworkers has an ES350 and it's a wonderful car... but it sits far too low to be a daily driver for me. The Crown supposedly sits about 4" higher... so it might be more appealing for the target audience of oldish Americans who like the appeal of sitting higher off the ground but don't want an SUV.

 

It's simple really. The Avalon didn't sell well enough... so Toyota dumped it. They decided to replace it with something else entirely... and my guess is that the Crown won't sell well either... but I'm willing to give Toyota some credit for trying something new and outside the box...

I really look forward to seeing one in person and maybe even driving one. My guess is that it's either going to be significantly better than the Avalon- or it's going to be a whole lotta 'meh'. The Hybrid Max powertrain in the Platinum is probably going to be great... but again... as someone pointed out... it runs $55,000... which buys you one heck of a Lexus ES350. But that ES350 is going to be slower, less fuel efficient, lower to the ground (IMO the Avalon and ES350's weakest area), and a bit dated in terms of interior.

One of my coworkers has an ES350 and it's a wonderful car... but it sits far too low to be a daily driver for me. The Crown supposedly sits about 4" higher... so it might be more appealing for the target audience of oldish Americans who like the appeal of sitting higher off the ground but don't want an SUV.

I suspect that Toyota will soon have a new redesign on the ES350 with updated interior which may look like what they are doing to the RX, maybe even with AWD option, and maybe new higher price which will make the Crown makes more sense, however, if they increase the price of the ES it will be in RX's territory. Honestly curious what Toyota's plan is.

 

In regards to the Crown and its pricing, keep in mind it’s never intended to sell in high volumes in the US, otherwise they would have invested in building it locally. They are all coming from Japan shipped out globally, meaning it needs to have the margins to offset increased shipping and homologation costs. I think Toyota understands the US version of the Crown will be a niche low-volume high-margin flagship where the math makes more sense than the Avalon and doesn’t need significant sales volume to be viable.

That being said, the $53k Crown Platinum is highly performant, much more at least than any ES version, and it is not possible to get an AWD ES hybrid. The $41k Crown XLE has standard eAWD, gets 41 mpg, and is almost 10” longer than a Venza. The more interesting question to me is, why would one get a non-Platinum Crown over a Highlander Hybrid eAWD? Highlander Hybrid is only slightly less fuel efficient but has vastly more interior volume with similar pricing.

 

Maybe they intend to research the market before starting to build Crown in Kentucky like the ES, still, the market has no favor for a full sized sedan anymore cause just like what you said, we can just buy a loaded hybrjd Highlander with AWD instead. It makes sense when they kill the Avalon, but why bring the Crown here? Why don't they just make a redesign Avalon instead with higher sitting?

I do like the Crown a lot, but it still makes no sense to me lol

 

Toyota didn't want to do a true refresh for the car, not to mention it and the ES are taking up space in the TMMK plant, which they could make more money from by freeing up space for to build more RAV4 Hybrids that dealers can't get enough of. It seems more of a business decision by the bean counters IMO.

 

People who buy the Crown rather than the Highlander will buy it because they want a sedan, not an SUV. Comparing prices of the Crown to the discontinued Avalon requires an inflation adjustment because Avalon prices are now frozen in time.

 

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Prices do seem to be inline with the Avy

 

Just built a 2023 Crown Limited: Heavy Metal Ext. color; Black/Dark Chestnut Leather interior; All-weather cargo mat; carpeted floor mats; delivery, processing and handling fee; Total $47,379.00. That seems to be close to Avalon Limited level pricing and very reasonable in today's car market.

Also, 2023 Crown front/rear head room is 38.2"/37.5" compared to 37.4"/37.1" for the 2022 Avalon. This is almost an inch more head room in the front seat of the Crown which is welcome news. More head room and higher entry level could be very accommodating.

 

Just built a 2023 Crown Limited: Heavy Metal Ext. color; Black/Dark Chestnut Leather interior; All-weather cargo mat; carpeted floor mats; delivery, processing and handling fee; Total $47,379.00. That seems to be close to Avalon Limited level pricing and very reasonable in today's car market.

Also, 2023 Crown front/rear head room is 38.2"/37.5" compared to 37.4"/37.1" for the 2022 Avalon. This is almost an inch more head room in the front seat of the Crown which is welcome news. More head room and higher entry level could be very accommodating.

Would love to hear a side by side review Den between the Avalon and Crown, sounds like you’re close to getting one.

 

The avalon demographic aged themselves out, and younger buyers dont want to be in a sedan/prefer CUVs. Their last ditch effort in this segment to attract a new younger demo was to do a fusion of both and what resulted is the Crown. The issue here with the Crown besides the color selection, especially interior wise, is that most of the features of this fusion, basically will only appeal to the same demographic as the old avalon, (higher off the ground for easier entry/exit, hybrid, built in Japan, Crown nameplate).

I give Toyota 1 MY until they start dumping the incentives packages on this thing, but then again who knows, maybe being a hybrid and folks unable to get into a camry or venza decide this is their VOC.

Side note, the top tier powertrain is a zinger, and might be something special for folks who want the zoomies and have a family without paying zupra money. The other thing is wait for the other Crown products showcased by Toyoda. Red crossover, silver sedan, much more appealing imo.

 

I spoke to someone who has seen the Crown at Toyota HQ in Plano. He also questioning the base and "loaded" msrp and said "get ready to be unpleasantly impressed with the interior materials"...

 

Tell that someone at HQ that dark interiors dont help masking cheap interior materials on a vehicle that carries the "Crown" nameplate. They needed to have current gen Mirai level interiors.

 

FYI - There is now a "Crown Forum 2023+" at (16) Crown Forum (2023+] | Toyota Nation Forum

 

The latest Consumer Reports lists the Crown at $47,500. I paid $34,000 for my 2019 Avalon (my third Avalon, a great car). Yes I realize car prices have increased since 2019 but I considered the Honda Accord as fairly comparable to the Avalon. CR lists the new Accord at $30,700. No way I would pay $17,000 more for a Crown than I would for an Accord. Might explain why I have seen so few Crown’s on the road.

 

Comparing "list" prices (for the Crown now) with what "You Paid" (for the Avalon), and over five years apart, is a very poor comparison, almost pointless. I bought a 2019 Avalon Limited V6 in December 2018, and got a solid 13.3% off the "list" price at the time, so $38,875 on a MSRP "List" of $44,732. AS for the Accord is comparable to the Avalon, in late December 2018, size wise yes, very close but the Honda only offered a 4 cylinder turbo motor, which made it a non starter for me.

 

I would never consider a Honda over a Toyota if I was in the market for a new car. My two previous Honda’s, a Civic and the other an Acura MDX had/have transmission issues at nearly 100K miles. The Civic had only 97k miles and developed a serious internal bearing issue. It needed an entirely new transmission. It was still drivable so I sold it with full disclosure that it needed a new transmission. The MDX has 108k and has torque converter shuddering which lots of owners have reported. It’s just a matter of time when it fails. A replacement/rebuild will cost more than it’s worth. My wife still drives it while keeping our AAA membership current.

 

All car manufacturers are extremely cheap. Even the latest Honda Civic Touring has no tire sensors that tell you on the dash the PSI, only when it is low. There is no LOW Fluid Sensor, the washer only comes out one way, you have to keep an extra bottle of windshield cleaner to spray first to get a good effect, and there is no remote start. Outside, this is a great car. The Corolla is slightly better, even with the Safety Sense 3.0.

The 3 most important things IMO. I would rather have fewer electronics, etc. But IMO Toyota is still the best-built car on the street, now surpassing Honda, Mazda, and Subaru.

 

As someone who’s driven both, I think the Crown is significantly nicer than the Avalon. The XLE comes with many standard features that were options in the Avalon and it‘s overall a more comfortable ride. Yes, it costs more, but you get more. It’s also more modern looking, which is something Toyota rather suddenly started caring about.

The Crown is also a worldwide offering, with the US being one of the few places it wasn’t available. This will simplify their production and bring their offerings more in line with the rest of the world.

 

The Crown is not a worldwide model. It's available in US/Canada, Japan, a few other Asian countries and UAE - exactly where the Avalon was available.
I drove the Crown twice and Signia once and as an Avalon owner I agree on "standard features that were options in the Avalon", but the Avalon's overall comfort and built quality and especially the interior design and materials are above the Crown's level. The Crown is nice, but it doesn't feel like an entry-level luxury car. To testify the price the Crown needs much better sound insulation and better interior materials. And that's absolute minimum to testify the base msrp.

 

As an owner of both, 2019 Avalon Limited V6 with Advanced Safety and the 2025 Signia Limited, with Technology and Towing, I disagree with your overall comfort and build quality statement. The Signia is significantly more comfortable and has better build quality than the Avalon we traded in for the Signia. Interior wise, yes the Avalon was more luxurious.

Don't get me wrong, we loved the Avalon, BUT it was simply too low to the ground as we aged (both ~70 years old now) and the 25 MPG with no towing capability, and a huge largely unusable for us, trunk, it just didn't make sense anymore.

The Signia entry point (hip point) is perfect, no down like the Avalon or up like the RX, our other consideration. The build quality on our Signia is darn near perfect, every bit as good and I think better than the Avalon, and as an an avid detailer, I've been over every inch of both vehicles.

Enabling the Active noise cancelation in the Signia and disabling the Engine Sound Enhancement, has quieted things down from the raucous Signias' 4 cylinder under acceleration, but it isn't louder than the V6, although the V6 sounded better for certain. We are very happy with the Signia, and have zero buyers remorse, which has not always been the case with vehicle purchases.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
You are talking about the Gen 5 Avalon, which is a step down in ingress and egress, sitting position and sitting height, interior materials, powertrain programming and overall comfort vs the Gen 4.
I like the higher road clearance of the Crown and Signia, but lowered roof line and aggressively angled A-pillar make ingress and egress more difficult and sitting position less anatomical for tall ppl.
We measured the road noise when we test drove the Crown and took the same route on the way home and measured the Avy's noise level. Of course, noise level apps are not perfect, but both of them proved to be very accurate when I was setting up my HT and both of them showed that XLE and Limited Crown is 3+ dB louder on highway. The Crown's doors and roof sounded absolutely hollow, like there is no sound insulation at all and center tunnel plastic panels were making creaking sounds too - imo it's not acceptable considering the Crown's prices. And under the hard acceleration the 2.5 sounds just unacceptably loud.
Maybe Toyota improved the sound insulation in the Signia, but based on my test drive I'd say no..