i think the fact taht its a 4a engine has a lot to do with it.. less work.. 20V or GZE swaps are enough work as it is

 

I think its the whole novelty of it being a jdm motor. Where I do think the 20v is a really good platform, it does not always suit the needs of those inquiring about the sawp.

I tend to think people are swayed because its a '170 hp' engine. However, ppl fail to realize that it's only between a very narrow rpm range in which it generates that 170 hp. Like most hihgh hp, 4 cylinder engines, the 20v has an extremely peaky power band...just look at some dynos.

What most want in an engine swap is acreditted to the gze. good bottom end, strong mid range and a somewhat flat torque curve....all great attributes of pumping off the lights. but if you want high strung top end for track...well then a 20v might be a consideration.

Nick

 

how true is it that the 20Vs are only around 145-150 hp on "indepedent" bench tests?

cuz that's the number i've seen on one guy's page, and several ppl's been saying that on the 4ag board too.

 

man, 20v, it's a bi*ch to install unless you run aftermarket ignition...

but less of a bi*ch than the 3sgte.. Toysport quoted me $6500 in parts to do the 3sgte swap.... for another $700 they'd throw in a gen 3 NA motor.....wooopee

as I've said before, I'd take a 170HP bluetop over a 20v. Both have lightweight bottom ends, same bore, same stroke, infact the bluetop has a considerably lighter crank and probably revs better, both would be pretty much maxed but one is much easier to get parts for than the other, and you don't need to go through the headaches of installing...

cost of a OEM 20v install... $4500-5000, cost of a rebuilt bluetop, with hi-comp pistons, balanced, shotpeened, ported, cams, bigger injectors, header. about $2500.

my 2 cents

Neil

 

:smile: after i had that talk with you last nite

but thx for showing me the light

 

I know this is completely off topic but has anyone else knoticed that Lafora's signature image bares a Honda logo on it? I just can't stop staring at it now that I'v seen it. Were you aware that it had the logo on it?

_________________
1986 Corolla GT-S Hatchback (restoration under way)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Voodoo.Priest on 2002-04-01 23:56 ]</font>

 

bluetop revs better.

nuff said.

 

On 2002-04-01 23:53, Voodoo.Priest wrote:
I know this is completely off topic but has anyone else knoticed that Lafora's signature image bares a Honda logo on it? I just can't stop staring at it now that I'v seen it. Were you aware that it had the logo on it?

do you recognize the HELMET of the driver in that image?

if not, i suggest you do some research. if you are a tifosi fan, own up, cuz you and i have to have a lil "talk" :grin:

i used that pic cuz of the DRIVER, not cuz of the car. tho i wouldn't mind having one of those things parked in my garage.

it's a Honda logo, big fvcking deal. yah this is a Toyota board, ya i drive a toyota, so what. give credit where it's due..they had some pretty good fvcking engines back then, wouldn't you say? (as far as F1 goes anyway)

 

hey andrew i contemplated the bluetop crank in the red hat, but aren't the rod size and main bearings different?

nick

 

yeah the bearing sizes are different..

what i wonder is , why does it seem like all the japanese drifters/racers *always* use the redtop block/bigger crank/bigger rods..

there must be something to that..

then again, they are abusing their engines a lot more than i ever would...

 

yah i think the bearing sizes are diff, but i don't get it, i have read that people are putting blue top cranks into red top blocks all the time,

hence my engine.
7 rib outside but bluetop inside

i am thinking look for 88 -90 engines, cuz those i think for sure are exactly what i was saying. they are 7 rib but also tvis. not 100% about crank

that guy on club4ag, like jspec's buddy, those 2 gys that are hyping the turbo kits and stuff, he is from malaysia and he did it.

 

I have an 88-90 ae92 4age in my car.. its got red lettering, 7 ribs, but low comp big port t-vis head

from what i've read that motor still has the bigger crank/rods.. not too sure about the oil squirters tho..

who's putting a blue top crank in a red top block??

 

I was going o put a bluetop crank in my red top. But my red top is a chigh comp and i remember hearing that the rod sizing and bearing sizing are different.

I don't know if all that work is worth it...just for a freer reving engine.

nick

 

On 2002-04-02 02:06, Lafora wrote:

do you recognize the HELMET of the driver in that image?

if not, i suggest you do some research. if you are a tifosi fan, own up, cuz you and i have to have a lil "talk" :grin:

i used that pic cuz of the DRIVER, not cuz of the car. tho i wouldn't mind having one of those things parked in my garage.

it's a Honda logo, big fvcking deal. yah this is a Toyota board, ya i drive a toyota, so what. give credit where it's due..they had some pretty good fvcking engines back then, wouldn't you say? (as far as F1 goes anyway)

Sorry man it's not like that I was just wondering if you knew it was there. I'd be a liar if I said I wouldent take the keys to that ride. To be honest Honda does make some good cars. I just specifically hate the Civic because allot of people I have met only ever give the reason that it is cool and it can get pimped up mad as the reason for wanting to buy/own that car.(I do not concider a CRX as a Civic). But I do not know who tifosi is.

 

can't you get the wide port 7 rib block, get the pistons from your red hat and put them on the blue top connecting rods?

i don't "thinK" its that much work
just checking up

talk to that guy jspec..

 

why not just get wiseco highcomp pistons and do that if you're gonna swap pistons anyway? (ok, i know it costs more..but you're at it anyway right)

VP: tifosi = Ferrari fan

 

you can get oversized/thicker main bearings to allow you to run the bluetop crank.

I think if you are going for say over 180HP or over 8000RPM, redtop would be wise. Those guys probably spend alot of doh having the cranks lightened and knife edged, as well as having the rods lightened or replaced with aftermarket, that way they get decent revability with the durability of the bigger bearings....compromise. ..but getting that type of work is very expensive, so kind of puts it in the same expense class as a 20v.

Neil

 

Neil:

ok, i'm utterly confused now. i read on Billzilla's site that a big port would be better than a small port for applications of 180-200+ hp

thought red tops were small ports??

 

yes, small ports are more commonly known as red tops..

bill's point is if your engine is making that much power, you will probably need to flow more air through the head than the small port can do

but for most 'normal' applications, he says the big ports are a little too big, so a small port would be better

well to be honest, i'm quite satisfied with the revability of my late model big port, and it supposedly has the heavier crank and rods.. I think just adding a slightly lighter flywheel is all it needs..

then again, maybe my opinion will change after driving a blue top engined car..




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mr_sinister on 2002-04-03 09:15 ]</font>

 

Hey andrew, I don't think the pins are the same size for high comp and bluetop pistons/rods.

Bill Sherwood? That guy is full of sh*t! Don't get me wrong he has an extensive automotive history and he's very knowledgeable about cars, but I don't think he's doing something right.

He claims that at 170 -80hp you have to do serious modifications to the car. Bullsh*t!!! I've read numerous ae86 books and mags where they have gotten 170hp EASY on stock internals.

His reccomendations for over 200hp is rediculous!!! he basically says you can't get that much hp out of a 1.6. Well perhaps, hes not too familiar with the all-motor dragsters (L'Natural, Skunk2, Ultimate, etc)...who are all respectively putting out around 250 - 290 hp NA.

i dunno...hes got the right tools and information, but I don't think he knows how to use them to get the optimum power out of not only the 4age, but cars in general.

Nick

 

no not bill sherwood,

btw what ever happened to him and smuggla?

i never heard the outcome of that!!!

hmm well how about bluetop crank, redtop pistons and redtop connecting rods?

 

On 2002-04-03 00:45, Lafora wrote:
Neil:

ok, i'm utterly confused now. i read on Billzilla's site that a big port would be better than a small port for applications of 180-200+ hp

thought red tops were small ports??

friggin newbie

 

that's why i'm asking questions

i never said i wasn't a newbie

you know all the sh** that's in your head overnite ? or were you a newbie at some point too

_________________

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lafora on 2002-04-03 16:06 ]</font>

 

On 2002-04-03 13:49, goodcookiedrift wrote:
Bullsh*t!!! I've read numerous ae86 books and mags where they have gotten 170hp EASY on stock internals.

Nick:

those sources in japanese? or english? i dont' suppose you got em over here right

 

i got them here...in numerous books i have. Auto Garage Loft, Techno Pro Spirit, Despot, Jubride, even just shadetree mechanics...all of them get a fair bit of hp with relatively little modifications.

red top rods don't fit a blue top crank...i don't think at least.

Nick