Very nicely done, Ryan. This post caught my eye because of a slight tapping noise our 08 XLE Limited has. Fortunately for us, though, brother inlaw works at the dealer where we purchased ours, so we should have no problems getting it taken care of.

Thanks for the informative post.

Paul

 

Ryan,
Thanks for the info. I am scouring the web / forums for information on my issue, trying to find anyone with knowledge or experience that can help me out. I am currently in contact with the dealer trying to work through the issue, but I have a feeling I am going to be told to pound sand.

I included my little recording of my sound below, the last 6-7 seconds are the most interesting. I'm curious if you had any thoughts, I appreciate any help I can get at this point.

The car is a 2010 RX with only a few thousand miles on it.

My symptoms are:
1. Most apparent on a cold start.
2. Not very apparent in idle, only under load or in gear.
3. Most audible in cold weather (40s or below). Even though you can hear it at warmer temps.
4. Most audible in low RPM / low gear. Yes, it is there at higher RPMs, but at that time the other normal engine noise tends to drown out the ticking or knocking noise.
5. Sound lasts about 10 minutes or so until the engine is sufficiently warmed up. It maybe there when it is fully warmed up, but it would be barely audible.

 

These motors are apparently entirely forged motors. That means that the pistons and rods slightly expand during warmup. They should be built within tolerance that you don't hear the expansion which is referred to as 'piston slap'.

I'm almost certain your lower end pistons or rod clearances are out of spec and you have 'piston or rod slap'.

In order for this to go away you would need a new shortblock.

Granted, the dealer and Toyota may be reluctant to actually repair this as it may not ever cause a failure.

with only a few thousand mile on the vehicle I would contact your local 'lemon law' people and see what they can do.

I would also contact Toyota HQ and open a case for documentation. Tell them you would like the shop foreman to inspect the vehicle on a completely cold startup.

Pretty much I think you have the similar issue to ours, but your shortblock tolerances are actually worse than ours was as we had a single cylinder making noise. You seem to have multiple cylinders with tolerance issues.

that's my 0.02

Ryan

 

Ryan,
Thanks a lot.

I had the car in for the noise one time, and the Service Advisor told me it was the fuel injectors and that the sound was normal. I tried to "live" with the sound, but couldn't and called back the advisor after a few weeks. After pressing the service advisor a little, he suggested to bring the car back in so the foreman could listen to it, and I would come in and drive it with them.

I went back in, and met with the assistant foreman (the main foreman was out), and took the car for a drive on a cold start. The sound was audible, but not as horrendous as it is when it is colder. It is spring and the temp outside was around 45 when I did the test drive. I also test drove 2 other 2010 RX loaners to see if I could here the issue (and I did not).

The assistant foreman indicated that it was a "piston slap". At first, he said you could hear it on all engines in all cars, but then after driving the a few loaners without the issue, he said my sound was definitely louder, and the next step was to setup an appointment with the "local rep" to look at the car. They definitely started laying the ground work for "the engine mechanically works fine".

The rep is to look at it tomorrow sometime with the "main" shop foreman. I am going to try and meet with them in person if possible. Any tips on what I should tell the foreman / rep when I talk to them? Any help is appreciated. Thank you so much for the quick reply. I anticipate they are going to tell me to go pound sand.

Thanks again

 

Well, I think your are in a good position here. I would definitely make sure the car hasnt been started the entire day until the rep gets there.

MAKE SURE THE CAR GETS PUT INTO GEAR SOON AFTER STARTING as the rpm's drop low and the engine will make more noise if it's out of spec.

I would also meet him there if at all possible, and I would have the foreman there to look at the same time.

Im not sure what you can actually tell them other than you know that my van was fixed for a similar issue.

Make sure you have a case open with Toyota HQ in California so they are aware.

If the sound is loud enough to hear, the rep will hear it. If he tries to say it's normal, tell him you don't agree at all, and have never heard a 'normal' car that has piston slap like this everyday, and that you will be back until it is fixed, and that you have contacted Toyota HQ.


You have to be persistant to the point of annoying. It's SAD but true.

R-

 

Thanks again, how do I open a case with Toyota HQ? I'll do that today.

I'll post a reply once I have more info. I have a feeling this isn't going to go well tomorrow, I've been preparing myself for a few days now so I can express disappointment without throwing chairs.

 

Well I wasn't expecting the adjuster to actually agree to fix mine either so you may be suprised. I think the main thing is that if he knows you are fully aware of the issue and arent the typical ignorant consumer. The game changes.

Listen to the menu and press the button for reporting an issue. They've been really respectuful when Ive called.

Just tell them what's going on and to open a case and they should contact the dealership. If yours is a Lexus you need to conatct Lexus...the number is below.

Toyota HQ Contact info
Phone: 800-331-4331
Fax: 310-468-7814
Mon - Fri, 5:00 am - 6:00 pm PST
Sat, 7:00 am - 4:00 pm PST


Lexus HQ contact info
General Inquiries: 1-800-255-3987 (Option 2)
For general inquires about Lexus, our vehicles or our dealers, press 2.
TTY/TTD Users: Dial 711; request the operator to dial 1-800-255-3987
Monday - Friday, 8 a.m. - 9 p.m., EST. Saturday, 10 a.m. - 7 p.m., EST.
Vehicle or Dealership Experience: 1-800-255-3987 (Option 3)
To share your vehicle or dealer experience with us, press 3.
TTY/TTD Users: Dial 711; request the operator to dial 1-800-255-3987
Monday - Friday, 8 a.m. - 9 p.m., EST. Saturday, 10 a.m. - 7 p.m., EST.

 

Ryan_V

Would it be possible for you to post a new youtube after the engine work so we can hear the different?

thanks

 

Hey that's a good idea.


If you want to hear something amazing. I now think I have the VVTI gear startup rattle that last for a split second while the vvti gear get's oil pressure.

Anyways, yes I will get another cold start video for you guys.

 

Ryan,
Quick update. I could not meet with the Factory Technician that saw the car (unfortunately). But I did go in person to meet with the Head Foreman.

The gist of the response from the Factory Tech is that the car has a "normal piston slap". I told them that was an oxymoron. I told them that the sound was not normal, and that a piston slap was not normal. The foreman was very nice and courteous. I have a feeling that there isn't much he can do at this point.

It was unfortunate, because the Factory Tech didn't drive the car until the middle of the day when the temps were well into the 50s, so it was likely not as loud as it is in the 20s and 30s, even low 40s. The foreman agreed, indicating that it was louder when he drove it earlier in the week first thing in the morning.

I opened up a case with Lexus to push this further. I told them that I cannot accept that it is a normal condition, and I cannot live with the sound. I don't know where I can go from here or what my options are. I am going to wait for the Specialist to contact me and go from there. I presume, worst case scenario is I wait until next winter when the temps are regularly in the 20s and go in again.

I try and "hope" that this will be resolved now that I am getting assigned a specialist, but any hope of remediation is dwindling I'm afraid.

I would almost love to just sell the car, take any kind of loss, and buy something else.

Thanks for your help

 

I don't blame you. I think that Toyota in particular have ran from this problem since day one. They aren't owning up, period and they have the dealerships serving up these lines to paying customers. "oh its normal piston slap" nevermind it lasts for 15min..."oh its definitely the VVTI problem, but youhave no check engine light"...what a crock, get real.

That's why mine didn't get fixed under factory warranty. Toyota Extra Care actually paid for and fixed my van.

But given that you only have 3k miles on yours...60k miles is a long time to wait to get your motor repaired.

This just disgusts me thoroughly.

 

Do you by chance have any 'lemon laws' in your state?

In Texas we have a lemon law. You pay $30 for the paperwork fee, and you fill out this sheet. Basically, they want to see that you've been to the dealer 3 seperate documented times. You write all that stuff down and they review your case. If they deem that you have a lemon, by law they will make Toyota either replace, repair or give you back your money.

I would look into this as a possible option.

 

We do have lemon laws in my state. I will go down that route if I have to.

For the time being, I am going to take the path of pursuing all other means to get this resolved. My approach is to let them know that I am very serious about getting an acceptable resolution, and that I cannot accept "just live with it" as an option.

I would rather get on the radar of a decision maker, have that person understand that I am serious, and fix the issue knowing that once legal is involved it will get expensive for Toyota.

Thanks again

 

Lemon law applies to the same problem, fix after fix (at least that's how it work in my state). In this case, I don't think you can do much with Lemon Law since no one can really agree on the problem yet.
They can keep saying noise is subjective and everything is working "normally" expect a little too loud. There is some design issue on that engine (I believe) but I can understand Toyota's position as well.

I do believe Ryan_V's end result is an expection/luck. 99% of the time, we will have to either live with the noise or to trade in our car

 

Thanks grandpapa,
Yes, Lemon Law may not apply here, but it is an option.

I think another option is to see if I could get a media outlet to pick up the story. With the recent issues of Toyota quality and recalls that are still fresh, plus the unfortunate disaster in Japan worrying people about Japanese car makers, I am quite sure they would not want this issue going public, locally or nationally, or even bigger.

All of those things I hope not to even have to consider. I am not out to beat up Toyota here, I don't hold grudges. I understand that sometimes companies mess up, we are all human after all. But when you make a mistake, you are supposed to fix it, I tell my kids the same thing.

All I really ask is that they stand behind their product and do what is right for their customers. I am holding out hope that they do that, and I won't have to consider any other ways to try and force them to do what is right.

 

Tsb - ??

I recently found the actual official 2009 TSB for the VVTi gear noise someone had posted up online and I printed it out and studied it. Basically it was there in BLACK and WHITE. "If the customer complains about this noise, you need to fix it and here's what you do".

After finding this TSB document I immediately contacted Toyota HQ in California again and opened a case about this. They did see that I had been to all 3 dealerships in the Austin area to have this looked at.


Ryan

Ryan, can you post or direct others to the actual official 2009 TSB? I think that would help our cause quite a bit.

If you have it, even emailing it to others would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

Not exactly the same one I found but very similar.

http://www.toyotapart.com/2GR-FE_EN...OISE_AND_OR_MIL_ON_P0014,_PO015,_PO024,_PO025,_PO017,_OR_PO018_T-SB-0094-09.pdf

I also found a quote by a tech about the VVTI actuator startup/clatter which mine now has which I didn't think was there before!!!!!!!!!!

"Yeah, it's a pretty intensive job. The spring inside the VVTi controller is letting go, and the ticking that you hear is the cap hitting up against the timing chain cover. I've done one, but luckily only had to replace the exhaust vvti gears and camshafts. A few guys in my shop have had to do both intake and exhaust gears, and that requires dropping the engine and trans down with the subframe."

 

Heres a video of it after the shortblock has been replaced.

Sorry about the lighting..

 

Heres a video of it after the shortblock has been replaced.

Sorry about the lighting..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuKbp5a99f8

Did you ever figure out what the sewing machine noise is?

-Chad

 

Thanks Ryan. The noise went away

I think you are one of a few (very few) luck folks who can get that issue taking care of. I am sure there are so many owners out there driving there cars (3.5L) with the tapping noise and don't know what's going on.

 

Oh, yeah int he video towards the end I'm pinching a vacuum hose line with my hand. There's a small valve connected to it that makes the sewing machine noise.

I actually can't take credit for that as some FJ Cruiser guy popped his hood and found the noise.

 

Sorry I wasn't clear in my question - I saw the video, but wondered if it is an issue, just annoying or if there is a fix?

Thanks
Chad

 

I believe it is a normal condition.

 

Hi everyone - new to the forum - first post - just got a 2007 Avalon with the 3.5 engine, only 10,600 miles or so (it was previously owned by an elderly family member). Immediately upon taking it out for the first drive I noticed a tapping noise when idling and especially when accelerating that (before reading this thread) I would have guessed was a lifter noise. Noise goes away after warmup.

Took car to the Toyota dealer (we have a few months left on the 60k/60 powertrain warranty) and left it overnight. Today they told me that the tech looked at the car and there were no abnormal noises. Sound familiar?

So I have a few questions -
a. what is a VTTi?
b. the noises that you all have been talking about (clicking, sounds like diesel, etc.) - I'm not clear after reading all the posts whether it is piston slap, valvetrain noise, or the VTTi (whatever that is) - could it be any of them?
c. If any of them are a possibility, are they all going to end up becoming an expensive repair if not addressed soon?

Thanks in advance.

 

Welcome!

Your right there should be a sticky post that addresses that.

These motors have at least several possible issues due to the manufacturing of internal parts by lowest bid type companies with questionable quality control. :facepalm:

1. VVTi = variable valve timing, the vvti clatter that is covered under warranty is a fast clatter when the engine is first started. That is covered under warranty, IF you can get your dealership to acknowledge the problem. The service rep will swear up and down that you have to have a check engine code along with the noise, but that is utter garbage. The TSB states, 'if the customer says theres a noise, the dealership needs to check it out"

2. Piston Slap, the occurs in motors with forged pistons quite normally. The pistons are supposed to expand once warmed to 'spec', but it some cases the forged piston doesn't expand to the correct spec resulting in excessive noise. Usually, if this is bad enough to sound won't go away once fully warm up.

3. Valvetrain noise, these motors have a lot of forged lightweight parts which results in better performance overall. As a result of the forged pieces the motors will generally make a lot of noise.

What I'd do is not only leave your vehicle at the dealer to listen to. I would insist on being there when they start it up to listen for any noises, and I would request that the shop foreman be there as well. This is if your serious about getting your vehicle fixed.

Far as longevity these problems seem to be more of an annoyance and the vehicles seem to function fine even after 40-50k miles. I cant say if it'll cause you problems later, there's no telling.

If I had one of these Toyotas with a specific issue as described above, I would try my hardest to get it fixed under warranty.

You might look at an aftermarket warranty as they were the ones that replaced our engine, NOT Toyota. :thumbsdow

 

Ryan, first of all thanks for the excellent and detailed response. Variable valve timing! Hmm, I didn't even know these engines had that!

The only thing I am still confused about is, if the noise is piston slap which only happens with a cold engine, is it "normal"? Also, if it is valvetrain noise, same question?

BTW, our noise doesn't sound like the VVTi from the way you describe it as a "clatter" - ours is a regular tick tick tick (or tap tap tap if you prefer) with the tick frequency correlated to engine rpm - i.e. they come closer together as you accelerate, and they seem to be about once per camshaft revolution at idle. If it was piston slap would it be twice as fast (because the crankshaft revolves twice for every camshaft/valve cycle) or do you only hear the slap on the detonation cycle (every other crankshaft revolution)?

Aftermarket warranty - that might be a good idea - how do I buy that?

 

Ryan, our 2008 is sometimes noisy when cold, which I believe is piston slap. Ours was an ex-fleet vehicle, which was driven by a pharmaceutical rep in Louisiana. We bought it in June from a used car dealer in East Texas that mainly deals in ex-fleet and off-lease vehicles, and we bought a four-year aftermarket extended warranty with the vehicle. Ours has 92k on it now.

We haven't had the the VVTi oil hose limited service campaign completed yet, and I'm thinking about getting it done soon.

Ryan, do you know where the oil hose is located? I can see a combination rigid line/rubber hose that comes from the front of the right (rear) head. Is that it?

Also, where do you live in Texas, and what Toyota dealer did your repairs? We live in the Dallas area.

 

I read the part number on the "sewing machine valve"; it's 90910-12276, and it's called a "vacuum duty valve", and it's $45.12 at 1sttoyotaparts.com.