Batteries in many 10 year old Priuses with mileage well into the 6 digits are still going strong so probably a good chance of the battery lasting longer than 10.

The camry hybrid has no belts and won't wear down the brakes nearly as much as a regular car so you have less maintenance (or points of failure) on non-hybrid parts. There's potential savings right there without even getting to gas.

Hard to guess what batteries will cost in 2023 or the price of gas but if you do a decent amount of city driving, then you'll likely at least break even and more than likely save money over that stretch.

If performance goes into the equation, the hybrid also has better performance than the i4.

 

Really depends on how much your drive, the type of driving, and how long your regular commute/trips are.

If you mainly drive on open highways, especially at higher speeds over 65 MPH, you won't save much over a 4 cyl Camry (35 MPG for the 4 cyl, vs 38 MPG for the Hybrid XLE)

If you mainly drive around town, or drive less than 45 MPH, you should get great mileage out of the Hybrid.

However, if you mainly drive short trips (for example my commute is only 6 miles) your mileage will suffer due to the time the engine needs to warm up.

Since my commute is only 6 miles, I'm only averaging 33 MPG. On the few long (30+ miles) trips I've taken, I've seen closer to 40 MPG. For comparison I only averaged 18 MPG out of my 2002 Camry 4 cyl, so even 33 is significantly better. Still it will take me over 9 years to break even (even based on gas that is currently $3.89 gal), so just based on cost it was not likely worth it for me. I do like being able to go over a month between fill-ups, and the 200 HP is nicer that the 4 cyl.

 

The Hybrid's transmission is mechanically much simpler than a regular automatic transmission. It's basically fixed gears, with the effective ratio being varied through the power electronics and software that controls MG1:

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

No torque converter or brake bands or clutches, or whatever mechanical complications exist in conventional CVT's. So you shouldn't need to worry about a transmission rebuild like in regular cars.

 

Thanks for the input. This would be my wife's main daily driver and we would use it on occasion for trips running 800 miles each way a couple of times a year.
Wife's daily commute is 16 miles each way over mostly flat ground and most of the distance has a 45 mph speed limit. Seems like a perfect combination for a hybrid but still undecided.

 

That is probably close to an ideal driving mode for a hybrid. I would expect you will average fuel economy in the 45 mpg range.

Unless you keep your car 10 years or longer you are quite unlikely to need a battery replacement. Everything I have seen indicates they wear out on calendar time, not miles driven. Taxis get multiple hundreds of thousands of miles on the original battery.

If you do replace them here is a link from 2012 that gives approximate costs, so you can do the math. Remember too that you have an extended warranty from Toyota on the battery, and if you trade before that is up, you have zero risk.

So you can do the math at see if it works for you. The other thing to consider, or perhaps your wife to consider if she is the main driver, is that many drive a hybrid for more than fuel economy. The Prius is an economy car, that in my mind is so ugly that I would never drive it, no matter what mpg it gets. And it is gutless for power. Just a no go for me. On the other hand the Camry looks like a real car, and has more power than the 4 cylinder and feels much more like a V6. And it is quiet. I'm not sure my hybrid will ever pay me back, but I enjoy driving it. I know for sure if I bought a V6, it would never pay me a nickel back, and would simply cost more and more every day from day one.

And don't believe my mpg below. It is a bit of a joke...

 

It seems the majority of cabs in NYC are camry hybrids. I'm sure the longevity of the battery was crucial when the decision was made to use the TCH as the main vehicle for NYC cab service.

 

Many cities and towns I have been in are or have already converted their taxi fleet to hybrids. This alone should answer your question. It is a purely economic decision. For them, the car is a cost and the cheaper it is to run the more money they have in their pockets at the end of the year.

For me, our TCH is saving us $200/month in gas alone over a similarly powered car. If I do have to replace batteries after 15 years, the cost will be totally insignificant to the savings. My commute is a bit longer than your wife's, but the mileage should be similar.

 

Interesting comments and I learn as we go. If we buy a new car in the near future the choices are narrowed down to either the Camry XLE hybrid, Camry XLE V6, or the Accord EX V6.
Pretty much a toss up at this point.

 

Talking about the hybrid battery. They are talking about the earlier version, 2007 to 2011. The '12 and '13 TCH has a improved traction battery that has more amps and runs cooler and should last longer.

Most driving is in the city so here it's easy to see why I bought the TCH.

Camry XLE hybrid, 41 city, 38 highway, 39.5 combined

Camry XLE V6.......21 city, 30 highway, 25.5 combined

Accord EX-L V6......21 city, 34 highway, 25 combined

 

Have had my Hybrid since Aug 1st and have 4500 miles already. That includes a 2300 freeway trip driving between 70 to 80 mph. The car is getting better milage than expected. My break even will be in 4.5 years. My daily commute is 20 miles with about 8 freeway & 12 city. On that tank I am getting 44 MPG. Now in Wisconsin we are getting some cold mornings around 45 degrees and the warm up period is a little longer and now I'm getting about 42 MPG. Still better than my Rav 4 I drove by 16 MPG.

What I really like is that this is just a fun car to drive having 200 HP. The Hybrid is rated the best overall sedan by CR even verses regular sedans. The cost difference was $2700. So if cost is a concern and you have a long payback because of how you drive don't do it. You won't have peace of mind and enjoy your car. I just enjoy driving it and the Hybrid portion is a game to see how good of milage you can get. If you don't feel like the game just sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

I enjoy the "game" and like seeing what I can stretch out of a vehicle. On my 2013 Tundra 4X4 with the 5.7 motor I average 18 mpg around town and 20 on a trip if I keep it at 60 mph.
I did test drive the hybrid and gave it a good shake down and consider it to have adequate power. Enough zip to be safe but not enough to get excited about.

Where I live at 7,000 feet we "lose" about 20% horse power. But the hybrid has a slight edge because we would lose 20% of the hp of the 4 cylinder motor but none of what the electric motor supplies. This results in slightly more power than other 4 cylinder motors that offer hp in the 180 range.

After doing some research I am no longer concerned about battery life. If they fail in 10 years I'll be happy that we kept the car that long Besides I would bet the prices keep on dropping in the forseeable future.

 

Altitude is definitely your friend, espec with normally aspirated engines like your Tundra. I used to get about 10-15% better mpg on my vehicles when I lived in Denver. I agree with Ron that your wife's scenario is pretty ideal for a hybrid and she will probably pull down 42-45 just driving it normally. I love my TCH and although my overall average is only 37.5 that's because I've been pulling a 4 x 8 utilty trailer to move stuff this summer - an activity which sadly drops my mpg down into the 30-32 mpg range (sigh)...

The other type of vehicle to consider, due to your altitude would be a turbo 4 cyl. They lose nothing to altitude and generally get good mpg. Contrary to popular belief, turbos are not about high rpm but have outstanding torque and fuel efficiency. I owned four Saabs over the years and they all got 30mpg or better on the highway and were safe, comfortable and good in snow. Of course Saab is not an option anymore but there are several turbos being made now, and the VW turbo diesel gets great mpg. Just stay away from V6 turbos and heavy cars as they won't get good mpg no matter what's under the hood.

 

Randy-

I'm in CO also. Just got the TCH 3 weeks ago for my wife, who drives mostly short 3-10 mile trips, and a couple 30-40 mile interstate for kid's sports. After 800 miles it is just a tad over 40 mpg (just driving "normal"). Coming from a CX-9 that averaged 16.5 mpg, for us it was worth it. Probably only keep 3+ years and upgrade to the next latest and greatest.

 

If the choices are between a hybrid and a v6, then the gas savings of a hybrid will be even greater as most make the comparison with the i4 version.

 

You also have several other key differences:

• Brake linings and rotors are 'lifetime items' for cars driven moderately in salt-free climates. Regen braking gives friction brakes a 'Life of Riley' - i.e., very easy. Now, in salt belt, you still have corrosion as a risk, but normal wear is greatly reduced if you drive for mileage.
• Speaking of brakes, the ABS pump is made more complex to accomplish this division of labor between friction and regen braking. Some folks have reported relatively early (< 120K mile) failures of this component. It's unclear what incremental failure rate above ABS/stability control system truly is. Part cost is enough to choke a horse - $2K or so. This makes pristine fluid condition a critical item.
• The inverter has its own cooling system with pumps, hoses, radiator, etc. Any of these can fail as the car ages - and inverter cooling failure can take out the inverter, an expensive item.
• Toyota made some 'unfortunate choices' in packaging that leave several of these expensive components vulnerable in a collision. That has yet to translate into higher insurance costs, but be aware that some collisions will leave a TCH much more likely to be totaled due to component vulnerability. It will become a bigger deal as the cars age and folks 'self-insure' for collision due to costs.
• The newer TCH has fewer belt-driven accessories - which eliminates belt failure as a risk. Gen 6 units have a single, small belt to drive the water pump.
• The A/C is electric, which results in higher compressor replacement costs. The good news from reliabilty perspective is that the design also eliminates stress from the compressor resulting in engine speed variation. Likely a tossup (a more reliable component, but extra $$$$ when it breaks). Another item here is oil, which is a bit 'different' - use of some aftermarket oils can cause failure of the compressor electric motors due to their dielectric properties. No issue if you use a competent tech - but a risk for BillyJoeBob's A/C repair and tractor supply,
• The ICE effectively does not idle. This will result in a much lower run times for a given number of city-cycle miles - the ICE-only car has to run the ICE at all times the vehicle is in operation, where the hybrid shuts it down at the least efficient parts of the cycle. Key example is in the school drop-of stop and crawl. For the 15 minutes it takes me to navigate the one at my kids school, the TCH has the ICE off. Our van is running the whole time. Multiply that by twice a day, and it adds up...
• The PSD (in place of transmission) is likewise a toss-up. It has no wear-prone clutches and torque converter of a conventional automatic, but it does have some unique twists. In both cases, clean fluid is key to longevity; in the TCH, wrong fluid can cause electrical failure if the substituted fluid has wrong dielectric properties or causes insulation failures.

The items that are NOT different are likely to make you want to replace the car - the struts and some other suspension components in the Camry don't necessarily have durability to write home about - painfully average IMHO. Ditto on interior trim pieces - that seems to have been improved a bit with Gen 7 from the Gen 6 mediocrity.

 

First off, I'm driving an Avalon hybrid. Not a Camry. The price differential between the hybrid Avalon and the V6 Avalon (no 4-cyl available) is only $1750.

I drove a 2007 V6 Avalon for nearly 6 years. It's basically the same drivetrain as a V6 Camry, but it has been improved some since 2007. I always drive for good mpg. On the 2007 Avalon, I averaged 27.5 mpg overall. I was getting up to 32 mpg on the highway.

In my 2013 Avalon hybrid, after over 10,000 miles, I'm getting about 43 mpg overall. It's the same kind of driving I did in the earlier Avalon. I drive from 15,000 to 20,000 miles per year.

Doing the math, for me, if I drive 18k miles per year, and if I plug in $3.50/gal. for gas, the hybrid's additional cost is paid back in just over 2 years. At 12k miles per year, it would take just over 3 years for the payback.

There are many variables to figuring payback, and everyone's calculation will be affected by:

• Your driving style's mpg results
• Plug number for cost per gallon of gas
• Annual miles driven
• Whether you compare the hybrid to a 6-cyl or a 4-cyl non-hybrid
• Price differential between hybrid and your comparison vehicle
• Whether you only include cost of gasoline, or also maintenance costs (of which there will be none during my payback period)
• Other variables

I've very satisfied that the hybrid is very cost effective for me. I expect the cost of gasoline in the future will only go up. I expect to actually save on maintenance costs over the 6 to 10 years I may own my Avalon hybrid.

YMMV. PM me if you want my formula for calculating payback. It's pretty simple. You will have to decide for yourself what mpg figures to use for the hybrid and non-hybrid options. I used my actual numbers.

 

If the dealer still has a couple of 13's in stock I plan on looking at them tomorrow.
One final question, how is the AC in the hybrid? It gets pretty hot here in the summer with lows in the mid 90's pretty common and really intense sun.

 

I find it just fine up into the 90's for temp. In auto and set at 22 deg C it normally runs one or two bars on the fan.

 

I drive 20,000 miles a year so I'm spending about $200 less in gas every month than I was with my last car which was a comparable V6 sedan. I'm averaging about 39mpg in mixed driving. Sometimes it is better sometimes it is slightly worse but even with a bike on a bike rack mounted to the rear of the car (this kills the aerodynamics) I've only gotten around 34mpg. I paid $28k for my 2012 TCH XLE with leather, moonroof and the mid-level infotainment system.

It gets hot here in SoCal and we've taken my car to Palm Springs in August with temps of 112 degrees and been perfectly comfortable with the fan on 2 once the car is cooled down. Tinted windows help too.

 

Car will be garaged so don't need heated seats. If the seats were leather then heated makes sense.
Local dealership has a couple of 2013 LE's so this morning will be making a trip down there to see if I can strike up a reasonable deal on our trade in. If not will take a closer look at the Accord EX V6.

Price of oil has been dropping and with the USA slated to exceed production of Saudi within three years my gut is telling me we will see gas around or just under $3 a gallon by next spring. Still, wife loves the concept of only having to fill the tank once every two weeks or so.

 

Car will be garaged so don't need heated seats. If the seats were leather then heated makes sense.
Local dealership has a couple of 2013 LE's so this morning will be making a trip down there to see if I can strike up a reasonable deal on our trade in. If not will take a closer look at the Accord EX V6.

Price of oil has been dropping and with the USA slated to exceed production of Saudi within three years my gut is telling me we will see gas around or just under $3 a gallon by next spring. Still, wife loves the concept of only having to fill the tank once every two weeks or so.

I had planned to by my TCH when they where closing out the 2013's, but I was able to get my Hybrid XLE back in May for over 3K off the sticker. That was below dealer invoice, plus I got 0% financing for 5 years. t was too good of a deal to pass up.

I don't like leather seats, so that might be part of the reason I don't see the need for heated seats.

As for Oil prices, I doubt we'll ever see gas under $3.50/gal out here in California, no matter how cheap oil gets. They just raised the gas tax, using the excuse of lower tax revenue. I'm expecting the price to much close to $4.00, and if the economy ever starts recovering, the inflation will cause the price to go closer to $5.00.

I figured the dealer wouldn't give me much on trade-in on my 2002 Camry (they only offered me $4K), so before I went to the dealer, I stopped by CarMax and got a quote to buy my car (quote's good for 30 days). They offered me $6K which was much better than I expected, and about what I would have been able to sell it for to a private party. Long wait for them to do the paperwork, but better than trying to sell it myself like I've done with my cars in the past.

 

Worked out a decent deal on the 2013 magnetic gray LE model and pick it up later today.
Learned a long time ago not to post prices on any forum as 35% of the people will claim I paid to much and another 35% will chime in how they got the same car for thousands under invoice as well as thousands above book for their trade
Bottom line was it was fair and a stress free transaction and most importantly the wife liked the car and picked the color she wanted. Am sure we will have questions in the months ahead.
Thanks for all the input.

 

Worked out a decent deal on the 2013 magnetic gray LE model and pick it up later today.

Congrats ! Same as mine, except for the metric units display....

Yves

 

Glad you got a good deal on a new '13 magnetic gray LE TCH. I have seen the magnetic gray and it's a great looking color.

The '12 LE came with Michelin Energy Saver tires. Hopefully you may have them on your new car.

Enjoy the new ride..

 

Glad you got a good deal on a new '13 magnetic gray LE TCH. I have seen the magnetic gray and it's a great looking color.

The '12 LE came with Michelin Energy Saver tires. Hopefully you may have them on your new car.

Enjoy the new ride..

Stock tires are Firestones.

 

I find it funny how the OP said he didn't want to discuss whether or not he got a "good deal or a bad deal" here on the forum". It seems like everyone wants to talk s$%t about his tires. Let's give him a break people. My god. the guy just bought his car. Not everyone who buys a car is ready to unload another $600 on tires. Aren't we about congratulating someone on a new purchase?

 

I don't have any intention of switching out the tires on the car unless they prove to be unsuitable or to gain 1 - 3 mpg. Hopefully they will do just fine until they need to be replaced.

Just hoping they perform OK if the wife gets caught unexpectantly in any winter weather. Otherwise she can take my 4X4 Tundra to work

 

Congratulations Randy! I bought a leftover 2012 TCH LE last April, have put 5000 miles on it so far, and am very happy with my purchase.
Lots of helpful folks on this forum and the one grumpy guy who floats in/out and he does not answer when called out as being wrong. So ask away when questions come to mind.

 

Consumer Reports rates the Firestone Affinity Touring near the bottom of the standard All Season category. However there is nothing particularly bad about them with all Good ratings except for Dry Braking, Wet Braking, and Noise, where it was rated Very Good. They might cost 1-2 mpg over a very low rolling resistance tire, but that is not much.

 

Congrats Randy, you got the same car as I did (color and all) I love mine.!!!!!!

 

If she will do it have her use Fuelly to track her mileage.

My daily commute is 25 miles each way with speeds rarely above 55. I can usually get high 40s to work and low 40s home (I drive harder coming home from work).

 

We are pretty impressed with car so far. Still on the first tank but the average is 45 mpg.:thumbsup: