I have only one thing to say after I say that it's a good thing you or the car weren't hurt.

HEres what I'm going to say...

Invest in some decent tires from now on. Like any mod on the car, tires are the same... You get what you pay for. $19.99 isn't enough for me to trust my car to stay on the road Buy some Yokohama's, or the Toyo's like you said.

I garuntee you'll feel a difference compared to the shit you have on there now.

That being said, I'm very glad you weren't hurt.

 

The lady that I bought the car from had those tires. I have just been holding off getting them replaced, and because I almost creamed my $6,000 car (which MIGHT have been prevented with good tires), you better fucking believe I will be at Les Schwab on Thursday with no budget and a eye for preformance tires (as in, good M&S rated ones. Mine are NOT M&S rated - not good for street tires that suck)

I would NEVER EVER buy cheap tires unless I was selling the car.

 

Could be Divine Providence, yo. Or Life saying, "You need to learn this".

In any event, tapping or lightly applying the brakes is better than mashing on 'em. Especially if it's sandy. Mashing makes it worse if anything. One thing you can try in the future is turning into the slide a little or wobbling the wheel in that direction. Altering the steering vector more in line with the direction of the car can help get grip.

At the core, it may just be that you need new tires, and that's why the f150 (aside from probably being heavier) could take the speed you couldn't.

 

With ABS, I figured it was a all or nothing gamble. I figured I could shed SOME speed to lessen the impact on me and my car (however, I was not going more than 20, so I was not worried about hurting myself)

 

Which ones?:

http://www.lesschwab.com/tires/passenger/pass_tires.html

Fvck price.

 

In that particular situation that you described, I'd say the best course of action would have been to forget about trying to turn and just try to stop in time. That means point the steering wheel perfectly straight, and apply the brakes just hard enought so they don't lock up. This would give you the greatest amount of stopping power possible. Any you might have avoided the ditch.

That said... I love snow. I end up in the ditch all the time. The difference is that I usually deserve it! I've landed in more snow filled ditches than I care to count, and have never had a scratch on the car. In fact, if the snow banks are high enough, and you set up the car just right, with the back end hanging out just a little tiny bit, you can actually bounce off the snowbank and keep on going perfectly fine. This technique lets you carry more speed through snowy corners than would otherwise be possible. Watch World Rally Sweden in February, you'll see them doing it all the time.

 

In that particular situation that you described, I'd say the best course of action would have been to forget about trying to turn and just try to stop in time.

Thats what my dad said. I had NO INTEREST in doing something cool like drifting thru the turn, just avoiding an accident.

 

if you live where its snowy, get winter tires

ego down a bit, lesson learned, no damage

 

ego down a bit, lesson learned, no damage

Thats the problem, 'lesson leanred' implies I learned something. I am still trying to figure out exactly what happened and how to correct it next time.

 

crappy front tires, that's it, intersections are usually more icy than roads since they have the combined traffic of both roads

you should have had a good look at what you slid through, and cone thought the turn/scenario again (hopefully not in the ditch again...)

 

Thats the problem, 'lesson leanred' implies I learned something. I am still trying to figure out exactly what happened and how to correct it next time.

Well, lemme ask you this: When you started to turn the car, did you still have the brakes applied? Or, after you downshifted from 4th to 2nd what rpm was the engine at?

Let me teach you about something called the Traction Circle.
All tires, no matter how good, or how crappy they are, have a maximum limit of traction they are able to provide. As a driver, there are four ways in which we can choose to use this traction: accelerating, braking, turning left, or turning right.
If we try to use 100% of the tires traction to try to make a turn, that means we have 0% remaining for either accelerating or braking. If 100% traction is used for turning, that means if we try to use even 1% for something else, we will have exceeding the maximum limit of the tire, and the car will start to slide. It is possible to brake and turn at the same time, but you need to be careful with it. It must be balanced out, if you're using 50% of available traction for turning, then you have 50% available for either braking or accelerating.

Now, normally no sane person would ever try to reach 100% of the tires grip while driving on the road. However, if the road is slippery due to snow, or ice, or sand, or whatever, that previous 100% would be lowered considerably.

One more thing I should point out. I previously asked what rpm the engine was at after you downshifted. Even if you're not using the brake pedal anymore, if your in a low gear at high rpm, even this (on slipperly surfaces) can have enough braking force to exceed the tires limits.

I hope this helps.

 

crappy front tires, that's it, intersections are usually more icy than roads since they have the combined traffic of both roads

Actually intersections are usually less icy because they always get extra sand/salt.

 

Good stuff, wedge. I used to have a graph of that somewhere, let me see if I can find it

 

That said... I love snow. I end up in the ditch all the time. The difference is that I usually deserve it! I've landed in more snow filled ditches than I care to count, and have never had a scratch on the car. In fact, if the snow banks are high enough, and you set up the car just right, with the back end hanging out just a little tiny bit, you can actually bounce off the snowbank and keep on going perfectly fine. This technique lets you carry more speed through snowy corners than would otherwise be possible. Watch World Rally Sweden in February, you'll see them doing it all the time.

Wedge......
sorry loss for words, u amaze me man :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

Actually intersections are usually less icy because they always get extra sand/salt.

Yeah but the city takes care of winter maintenance... he's talking about rural roads... therefore less maintenance and no curbs.

And I think he's referring to the higher traffic melting the snow... then the water freezing over again...

 

Wedge......
sorry loss for words, u amaze me man :thumbup: :thumbup:

Oh yeah!
It's great fun man!
Check out this vid: http://www.fsr-rally.com/video/safari2001/neige2.wmv
That's not me. But it could very well be! That's from the 2001 Snowy Safari Rally. That's before I started competing in those events. However, the 2004 Snowy Safari is just a few short weeks away. I've already signed up. Does anybody have a video camera they can lend me? I'm being serious, if anyone in TO is willing to lend me a video camera, I'd be VERY grateful. I'd love to get some of my exploits on film! Then I could post them here, and everyone will see how crazy I really am!

Yeah but the city takes care of winter maintenance... he's talking about rural roads... therefore less maintenance and no curbs.

That's a good point. I didn't think of that.

 

Good advice wedge...

1- Get winter tires

2- Reduce speed AHEAD of curv....

3- Take foot of brake before entering turn

4- In the middle of the turn apply gas

5- Don't downshift and leave the lower gear at a high RPM, this will get you in trouble...


Plan ahead.... A front-wheel drive car will understeer easily on icy conditions.... that F-150 got throught he corner because of many things:
1- adjusted speed differently than you
2- got a better turn angle than you
3- had better tire/grip
4- is a rear-wheel drive (back end will sway, but the front end will turn)

Anyways, be careful... winter driving isn't like summer driving!

 

I braked and downshifted into 2nd, so the engine was at about 2,500 RPM's IIRC. I was not on the throttle in the entry to the corner, I know the proper cornering techniques, and was planning on getting on the throttle as soon as I started to unwrap the steering wheel after the apex.

 

Well maybe it was all due to the tires...

Well the tires being badly worn or bald created a lack of traction due to the cornering speed.... even if you were not driving fast you still entered the corner too fast for the tire.... so the car understeered!

 

if u downshift, dont u get engine braking? isn't that a good thing?

well, i do it when im trying to break down a hill of ice

 

^^ if you're trying to slow down then you downshift... but if you're already sliding then you push it into neutral (advice from a fellow TNer)... I made the mistake of downshifting once and almost rammed into an island on ice

 

This is pretty much as nutty as I ever get
Residential Winter fun

I'd lend u a cam man, but it's not mine, sorry! would love to see you in action

 

^^ if you're trying to slow down then you downshift... but if you're already sliding then you push it into neutral (advice from a fellow TNer)... I made the mistake of downshifting once and almost rammed into an island on ice

Or put the clutch in?

 

yes

whole point of putting in the clutch, putting it in neutral, or straightening the wheel is to devote ALL of your available tire traction to THE most important thing needed to avoid a colission, be it changing direction or braking to a stop.

By putting in the clutch/neutral, you stop asking the tires to help you accelerate/engine brake, giving more traction for turning. By straigtening the wheel, you stop asking the tires to turn the car, giving more traction for braking.

Whenever you do both, you use up the amount of available traction, leaving insufficient amounts for what you need to do.

 

Naito:

Nice drift :thumbup:

FYI, I was going a hell of a lot slower than that, and had WAY better traction (as in, equal tires, your tires are probably not getto like mine are)